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What on earth is he talking about with the 4K being unable to make screengrabs before release date - “a function of the encode”?

CSM126 wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:09 pm What on earth is he talking about with the 4K being unable to make screengrabs before release date - “a function of the encode”?

Unlike blu-rays, 4K discs have unique encryption keys so each one has to be decrypted before screencaps can be made, which can take a few days. "A function of the encode" is a very odd turn of phrase, though.

Waiting patiently for my Blu-ray to come (Amazon decided not to dispatch it even though I pre-ordered it in April).

One thing that was puzzled me with this movie is the turner version, I was lucky enough to see a bootleg of it years ago on vhs, it had the "property of turner movies" watermark emblazoned over the image,
I vividly remember the scene where Billy shoots Bob in the street with the shotgun full of dimes, after he said "keep the change" he fired the second barrel into his body, in all these newer cuts the second shot seems to be omitted, I did read Mr Seydors book and didn't get a y insight to the cuts, it's like an itch I can't scratch not being able to see that version I remember.

I saw the Turner cut multiple times on tv and, yes, he does shoot the gun a second time after saying 'keep the change'. Not sure why the newer cuts omit it--they turn the moment into more of a silly one-liner.

It does turn into something silly when they leave it at "keep the change." It's closer to those dumb action film clichés you'd expect in a Schwarzenegger movie, but throwing in that second shot really puts it in a much darker place, enough that it effectively undercuts the humor - it's just grim. In other words, what does it say when a spoken joke is drained of any joy or humor? It really fits that mythic fatalism that gives the film such a lasting impression, at least to me.

How does each version present this scene?

Syncromoose wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:45 am Waiting patiently for my Blu-ray to come (Amazon decided not to dispatch it even though I pre-ordered it in April).

One thing that was puzzled me with this movie is the turner version, I was lucky enough to see a bootleg of it years ago on vhs, it had the "property of turner movies" watermark emblazoned over the image,
I vividly remember the scene where Billy shoots Bob in the street with the shotgun full of dimes, after he said "keep the change" he fired the second barrel into his body, in all these newer cuts the second shot seems to be omitted, I did read Mr Seydors book and didn't get a y insight to the cuts, it's like an itch I can't scratch not being able to see that version I remember.

It's an itch you can easily scratch. The '88 Turner version is on disc 2 of the 2006 Warner DVD. It's in full, uncut and in pretty decent shape, all things considered. The scene you mention where Billy shoots Bob a second time is there, as are all the snippets of scenes and lines of dialogue that people grew to love over the years (and which are missing from Paul Seydor's new revisionist fan edit). 

The Turner version is the one that should have taken pride of place on this new Criterion release. Unfortunately it's not on there at all. 

The Turner version is the one that should have taken pride of place on this new Criterion release. Unfortunately it's not on there at all.

It's on there. The Final Preview Version is essentially the first preview version (a/k/a The '88 Turner Version) with some additional cuts and additions by Peckinpah.

swo17 wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:13 am How does each version present this scene?

The 50th Anniversary edition doesn't have a second shot, and I'm guessing it's gone in the Theatrical as well, so it's left in just the Preview I suppose

OUATITW1 wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:15 am

Syncromoose wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:45 am Waiting patiently for my Blu-ray to come (Amazon decided not to dispatch it even though I pre-ordered it in April).

One thing that was puzzled me with this movie is the turner version, I was lucky enough to see a bootleg of it years ago on vhs, it had the "property of turner movies" watermark emblazoned over the image,
I vividly remember the scene where Billy shoots Bob in the street with the shotgun full of dimes, after he said "keep the change" he fired the second barrel into his body, in all these newer cuts the second shot seems to be omitted, I did read Mr Seydors book and didn't get a y insight to the cuts, it's like an itch I can't scratch not being able to see that version I remember.

It's an itch you can easily scratch. The '88 Turner version is on disc 2 of the 2006 Warner DVD. It's in full, uncut and in pretty decent shape, all things considered. The scene you mention where Billy shoots Bob a second time is there, as are all the snippets of scenes and lines of dialogue that people grew to love over the years (and which are missing from Paul Seydor's new revisionist fan edit). 

The Turner version is the one that should have taken pride of place on this new Criterion release. Unfortunately it's not on there at all. 

I will have to check my DVD again, I don't remember it at all from there, incidentally my Blu-ray finally shipped from Amazon, was due on the 3rd, now arriving on the 22nd, damn them!

Walter Chaw on the three cuts here

Edward Gauthier wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 6:03 pm I understand the importance of having all these cuts available, but unlike, for example, Malick's varied New World edits (all three of which I find wonderful) or his Tree of Life (the longer of which I have no use for) or Soderbergh's "fan" edits of Kerrigan and others, this film's history and presentation does nothing but discourage me from watching. I'm tempted to start with the theatrical, but I also might start with the longest version, or of course Peckinpah's "own" cut. I've seen the film repeatedly on the DVD set, but don't have a preference between those two versions.

Some of us have to work for a living, frankly, and don't have the time or wherewithal to dedicate a week's worth of evenings to the study of minute discrepancies, no matter how much I love the flick (and I do love it).

My head swims.

I've seen two, possibly three cuts of the film so far, and my own feeling is that it's a good movie in every version. The purpose of the film, the themes and the performances, come across in each cut I've seen. There are memorable scenes which are memorable in every cut––even though they play differently in different versions. I know people have different versions they prefer, but to me it's less a case as in Blade Runner, where the original release cut is constantly dampening the good parts of the film with horrid voiceover, etc., less a case of Brazil, where they cut the film to the quick in the theatrical cut before it's meaning had a chance to get delivered. Rather, I think it's more like your experience of The New World. That's my feeling, anyway. Any version you chose to watch will bring you the experience of the film.

Same here, and after watching the 50th anniversary cut just the other night, it definitely didn't feel like it changed the tone of the film I remember. If anything, it's only grown more potent.

Edward Gauthier wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 6:03 pm Gentlemen, I've done my best to follow this thread, and the even more shambolic one at Blu-ray-dot-com, and both have left me thoroughly perplexed.

All I ask for is the following:

1. How many versions of this film now exist on media? If I'm not mistaken, neither of the two cuts on the previous DVD are replicated on the new Criterion set, which means there are now five (!) cuts extant.

2. Is it possible to accurately date each cut, should one desire to watch them in chronological order?

3. Which cut is it, again, that bears the last touch of Peckinpah himself?

I understand the importance of having all these cuts available, but unlike, for example, Malick's varied New World edits (all three of which I find wonderful) or his Tree of Life (the longer of which I have no use for) or Soderbergh's "fan" edits of Kerrigan and others, this film's history and presentation does nothing but discourage me from watching. I'm tempted to start with the theatrical, but I also might start with the longest version, or of course Peckinpah's "own" cut. I've seen the film repeatedly on the DVD set, but don't have a preference between those two versions.

Some of us have to work for a living, frankly, and don't have the time or wherewithal to dedicate a week's worth of evenings to the study of minute discrepancies, no matter how much I love the flick (and I do love it).

My head swims.

There are five available cuts:
1. The first preview cut, also known as the 1988 Turner preview cut.
2. The second preview cut, also known as Sam Peckinpah's Final Preview Cut
3. The theatrical cut
4. The 2005 Paul Seydor-cut
5. The 50th Anniversary Relase.

There is also an earlier TV-cut, I believe it was the theatrical cut with deleted scenes added to it. I haven't seen it, and it has never been released on disc.

1 and 4 are on the Warner DVD. 2,3 and 5 are on the Criterion.

The two preview cuts were finished only days apart, and where the last versions Peckinpah worked on. Shortly thereafter, Peckinpah quit, and Roger Spottiswoode (among others) did the theatrical cut. When Seydor did the 2005-cut for the Warner DVD, he had neither the time nor the resources to do it properly. The 50th Anniversary Relase is very similar to Seydor's earlier cut, it very much feels like Criterion has given him an opprtunity to finish his earlier version, now in collaboration with Spottiswoode.

Syncromoose wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:58 am

OUATITW1 wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:15 am

Syncromoose wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:45 am Waiting patiently for my Blu-ray to come (Amazon decided not to dispatch it even though I pre-ordered it in April).

One thing that was puzzled me with this movie is the turner version, I was lucky enough to see a bootleg of it years ago on vhs, it had the "property of turner movies" watermark emblazoned over the image,
I vividly remember the scene where Billy shoots Bob in the street with the shotgun full of dimes, after he said "keep the change" he fired the second barrel into his body, in all these newer cuts the second shot seems to be omitted, I did read Mr Seydors book and didn't get a y insight to the cuts, it's like an itch I can't scratch not being able to see that version I remember.

It's an itch you can easily scratch. The '88 Turner version is on disc 2 of the 2006 Warner DVD. It's in full, uncut and in pretty decent shape, all things considered. The scene you mention where Billy shoots Bob a second time is there, as are all the snippets of scenes and lines of dialogue that people grew to love over the years (and which are missing from Paul Seydor's new revisionist fan edit). 

The Turner version is the one that should have taken pride of place on this new Criterion release. Unfortunately it's not on there at all. 

I will have to check my DVD again, I don't remember it at all from there, incidentally my Blu-ray finally shipped from Amazon, was due on the 3rd, now arriving on the 22nd, damn them!

The second shot is in both preview versions, but none of the other three. There are several things included in both Preview-cuts, but exlcuded in the other cuts. The biggest loss, in my opinion, is the circular structure of the film. The preview cuts bring us back to the prologue. They also have the opening credits playing over the prologue. The theatrical cut has it playing over a picture-montage after the opening sequence, which is also the case in the two cuts Seydor worked on. Cleary he used the theatrical cut as the starting point, and added material to it, as opposed to "finishing" one of the preview cuts.

I watched this for the first time last night, and opted to start with the theatrical version. I'm not sure if I'll rank it as highly as I do The Wild Bunch and Cable Hogue, but it's certainly magnificent. I was really shocked at how almost laid back the film feels? There's a frenetic energy in all of the films of his I've seen, where even slower moments can feel like they are building towards the dramatic finale. But this film really doesn't have the kind of dramatic finale that Wild Bunch of Straw Dogs do, does it? I've been on a bit of a Kristofferson kick lately, watching his interviews in Ken Burns' Country Music doc, and I have to say his presence in this film is phenomenal. Both he and Coburn's relaxed attitude really stand out and help make the film so unique.

In terms of Peckinpah's western films dealing with "the death of the old west" this one almost feels like the pre-death stage, as you're sort of watching it being murdered. And even though performers in the film point the finger so aggressively at Garrett, it didn't come off heavy handed and plays quite well.

Yeah "laid back" would also be my description. The core narrative is slim and trite; the digressions, such as the scene Pat and a random person pointing shotguns at each other by the river but never firing, is much more interesting and defines the film for me. The film seems to be portraying a space and time where there is not only no sense of honor left (shooting people in the back, not observing dueling rules, etc.), but also a general lack of identity. A key exchange reveals that good and evil switch places all the time. A former criminal is appointed as a deputy, yet instead of working closely with the sheriff, he goes his own way and about his own business, only appearing again after like half an hour, by chance. Early on, I thought the Bob Dylan character was gonna be a variation of Colorado Ryan in Rio Bravo, but hell, what do I know? All he does is observe, and it might as well be Bob Dylan observing the shooting (of the film). I know this is probably due to Dylan's limited resource in acting but it really adds to the sense that the film does not want to take the central struggle that seriously. It almost doesn't matter. This is exactly why I like the film, but I also feel it's a little bit overdone.

And I now know what inspires old Mike in Breaking Bad to sit by the river to die.

Comparison: 50th Anniversary Cut / 2005 Special Edition:
https://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=88776

Comparison: Final Preview / Turner Preview:
https://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=64281

Suggestions for which version to watch as a first-time viewer?

denti alligator wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 2:38 am Suggestions for which version to watch as a first-time viewer?

If you have the UHD, watch the 50th anniversary version - it looks fantastic and I think it’s a great cut of the film. Otherwise go with Peckinpah’s preview cut to see the closest to his vision, not that this is all that different

denti alligator wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 2:38 am Suggestions for which version to watch as a first-time viewer?

I would recommend going in order (Theatrical, Preview, 50th), especially if you're planning to watch them all anyway.

Mike Siegel is hinting at a UK release coming sometime next year.

Mike Siegel posted this today

Not sure about the UK, but Europe will see something in 2025, which marks Peckinpah's 100th birthday.

So I think it probably is a French or German release.

Who would be handling the European UHD release?

rrenault wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:38 pm Who would be handling the European UHD release?

He obviously didn't tell but Plaion in Germany is likely as they've got a deal with Warner.

Plaion announced a Peckinpah box set that includes Pat Garrett in HD in three cuts.
Mike Siegel was involved in the extras and created 7.5 hours of material.