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Since I don't understand Bengali and am realistically never likely to learn it, I can't see why I'd want to switch the subtitles off.

MichaelB wrote:Since I don't understand Bengali and am realistically never likely to learn it, I can't see why I'd want to switch the subtitles off.

Haha, neither will I, but since the burned-in subtitled versions are a step away from an original source, a non-subbed version would be of better quality in most cases. Volumes 1 and 2 had optional electronic subtitles.

Cash Flagg wrote:Beaver on Satyajit Ray Vol. 3

Okay, but are there standards conversion issues, as with the earlier volumes? The Beav does not address this.

MichaelB wrote:Since I don't understand Bengali and am realistically never likely to learn it, I can't see why I'd want to switch the subtitles off.

I think there might be one or two people in the UK who do understand Bengali, though.

Perkins Cobb wrote:

Cash Flagg wrote:Beaver on Satyajit Ray Vol. 3

Okay, but are there standards conversion issues, as with the earlier volumes? The Beav does not address this.

Unfortunately I haven't seen any of their other Ray boxes. Gary reviews two of them here, here, and here and has generally good things to say about them. But I've also noticed that the site doesn't have reviews for The World of Apu or the second volume of the Ray boxes. I'll see if I can't get copies of them down the road.

Clearly says on the boxes that the source materials were from master tapes from the producers, and not from a film source. They are absolutely watchable though, and it's not as bad as many say. The content makes up for it, but I certainly hope a new version of the Apu Trilogy is announced before I end up taking the plunge buying the AE discs....

otis wrote:

MichaelB wrote:Since I don't understand Bengali and am realistically never likely to learn it, I can't see why I'd want to switch the subtitles off.

I think there might be one or two people in the UK who do understand Bengali, though.

In which case, they can register their own complaints. Or not, as the case may be. But there's absolutely no obligation on our part to do it for them if it makes no practical difference to us.

MichaelB wrote:

otis wrote:

MichaelB wrote:Since I don't understand Bengali and am realistically never likely to learn it, I can't see why I'd want to switch the subtitles off.

I think there might be one or two people in the UK who do understand Bengali, though.

In which case, they can register their own complaints. Or not, as the case may be. But there's absolutely no obligation on our part to do it for them if it makes no practical difference to us.

Are you for real?
Mods: Please move this to the infighting thread under: No nitpicking if you don't speak Bengali.

I'm being perfectly serious. Although this isn't necessarily true of this thread, "non-removable subtitles" is all too often one of those knee-jerk complaints along the lines of "It doesn't have a commentary" that people often seem to make just for the sake of making them. Never mind that they might not understand a word of the underlying language and so will never watch it without subtitles themselves, or that the scandalously commentary-free release might come with a 96-page book and loads of other extras to set the context in what may well be a more user-friendly form.

But I concede that as a Briton I'm probably more sensitive than most to the phenomenon of people taking it upon themselves to complain on behalf of others without actually finding out beforehand whether any offence was actually caused - it tends to happen a lot round my neck of the woods, especially around Christmas (or 'Winterval', if you're an over-zealous local council worker).

A genuine problem, of course, is that these non-optional subtitles might be harder to read (and I absolutely take Manicsounds' point about source materials), but as I now have a set of checkdiscs I can assess that for myself.

Michael, I'm sure you're right that a lot of the time this is a knee-jerk reaction, and it's so wonderful to see more of Ray's films being made available that nitpicking can come across as un-gracious. But I'd have thought that any film scholar who really wanted to study a film in depth would want to watch it without subtitles at some point. And I'm no scholar, but there are films I've watched many times - Day of Wrath for one - that I sometimes stick on without the subtitles, because it's nice to see the compositions uncompromised by big white letters. I can certainly imagine watching Pather Panchali like this - now there's a film that could probably be appreciated without subtitles even on a first viewing.

I understand that AE can't really afford to do anything about this, especially with such niche titles, but it's always worth saying that optional subtitles are preferable. I don't suppose anyone will hold off from buying the set because of this!

Another problem with forced subtitles, particularly in this instance if they were inherent in the master, is that the translation may not be good, probably because they were up to less scrutiny when they were made.

Well, these films are all from the 1980s or later - and given that Ray spoke perfect English (as one might expect from someone with a pre-war Rugby and Oxford education, he sounded posher than the Queen), there's every likelihood that he was personally involved with approving the translation. I don't speak a word of Bengali, so I'm not in a position to judge the translation, but I don't recall ever having a problem with the content of subtitles on a Ray film.

Being able to read them is a different issue: the closing scenes of Mr Bongo's The Adversary being a particularly sore case in point - though their later Ray releases are a marked improvement. In fact, their subtitles have been getting better and better - Two Daughters and The Goddess were electronic, if non-removable, while Company Limited's were optional.

But I have every sympathy with Artificial Eye or any other distributor who handles titles from places like India, Eastern Europe and Latin America where preservation standards aren't as high as those in the West - you're often forced to take whatever's available, as there may not be an alternative at all, or it would involve spending far too much money to make a release like this viable. (I worked for the distributor of An Enemy of the People in the early 1990s, and I seem to remember it sinking like a stone on release).

I received the Ray Volume 3 yesterday and I've only had time to watch Deliverance, which is very rough indeed, with fluctuating colours, analogue fuzziness and some patches where the image is very washed out. The transfer is certainly weak, but it seems as though a lot of the flaws are inherent to the original print, as the colour will often flip from pasty and bluish to richer and earthier within a continuous shot and the colour and sharpness will also vary wildly from shot to shot. The film is only 45 minutes and as far as I know it's much rarer than the two features in the set, so I'm hopeful that the others will be in better condition.

I also watched the Music of Satyajit Ray extra, which is a similarly weak, but better, transfer which also betrays wild variation in the quality of the source prints used for the film extracts within it. It's a good enough film, much more in-depth than I expected (running nearly an hour).

Nevertheless, I'm still extremely grateful that Artificial Eye have released so much Ray material, whatever the condition. We'd all be long gone if we were holding our breath for Criterion. (But still, when is somebody - anybody - going to tap into the vast store of Academy restorations in fresh transfers?

zedz wrote:But still, when is somebody - anybody - going to tap into the vast store of Academy restorations in fresh transfers?

Mr Bongo's Company Limited is sourced from the Academy restoration - and is their best Ray disc by a very considerable margin. Although significant allowances still have to be made for variable source materials, they're far less distracting than with almost any other Ray disc I've seen - and, as I said above, even the subtitles are optional (also an extreme rarity with Ray).

I recently finished reviews of both of AE's Varda sets (hopefully they'll be posted soon) and thought that I'd throw some fuel on the fire by pointing out that Beaches of Agnes has burnt in subs as well. Don't be dissuaded by the way, these are some magnificent sets!

bamwc2 wrote:Beaches of Agnes has burnt in subs as well.

Burnt-in, or forced? Burnt-in subtitles are those that are physically burned into the print of the film. Forced subtitles are those generated by the player for which the viewer has no option to turn off. The former are awfully rare on DVD (but they do exist, as the new Ray set proves).

Matt wrote:

bamwc2 wrote:Beaches of Agnes has burnt in subs as well.

Burnt-in, or forced? Burnt-in subtitles are those that are physically burned into the print of the film. Forced subtitles are those generated by the player for which the viewer has no option to turn off. The former are awfully rare on DVD (but they do exist, as the new Ray set proves).

Terribly sorry about that. I did mean to say forced.

Kiarostami's CERTIFIED COPY on Blu Ray & DVD from AE on Jan 10th...

Decided to finally get Artificial Eye's Satyajit Ray Apu Trilogy set.

Although I've been waiting for a possible reissue (in R1, Criterion, Sony, DVD or BD whatever) but decided to just forget about it and just go for the AE set.

I seriously don't hope someone announces a Blu-ray special edition or something soon....

If they do, I guess we'll have you to thank!

I doubt you'll regret it. It's been a slow, lonely decade waiting for Criterion to get around to Ray. AE have really been the only show in town.

Does anyone have any articles about the Ray restorations I keep hearing things about? It's sad to see labels forced to use these old VHS masters with burnt-in subtitles when there's a trove of fresh prints out there.

They even have their own website. WARNING: Viewing that link may provoke gnashing of teeth. This project began nearly twenty years ago!

zedz wrote:It's been a slow, lonely decade waiting for Criterion to get around to Ray. AE have really been the only show in town.

Mr Bongo have quite a bit of Ray too, and after a truly abysmal start with The Anniversary their presentations haven't been too bad - certainly on a par with Artificial Eye's. In fact, I rank their Company Limited as the best Ray DVD I've seen to date.

An other knock against them though is releasing Two Sisters instead of Three.

Murdoch wrote:Tarkovsky box coming this October containing all his features from Ivan to Sacrifice.

According to Amazon this has been pushed back to January, anybody know what the delay is?