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I just posted that I think the Fassbinder is the most pointless Eclipse ever before reading this thread, and I have to agree with everything TMDaines has said here. Fassbinder is far better known than even Kaurismäki's "Leningrad Cowboys" films (another unexciting Eclipse), and the plain fact that these films plus a few more can be had for a cheaper price and also with English subs from the UK makes this completely uninteresting given that Eclipse is a barebones series. If they had released this in the mainline (not to speak of the blu option) it would have been an entirely different story. And albucat, I'm pretty sure something else could have taken the place of this set, given the Japanese treasures they have on Hulu and which they make unavailable for anyone not living in the US or Canada.

That said, I'm overjoyed about the Rays and the Lubitsch, and these certainly make it the best CC month this year so far for me.

Speaking as someone whose budget is about to tighten for the foreseeable future, I'm pretty thrilled about this month's releases, especially the Fassbinder Eclipse set.

I was under the impression that most of the world's home video consumers aren't region free. Seems a bit silly to me to whine when you're clearly the minority customer but what do I know.

You're right, but most of the world's home video consumers won't touch Fassbinder with a bargepole.

I don't think that's true at all. Many people especially in America are region locked whether they are a big cinephile or not. I know many Fassbinder fans who have no interest importing for example.

I don't know that 22 pounds plus shipping actually comes out cheaper than a $70 price point Eclipse set for me, as that works out to $23.50 plus tax during a Barnes and Noble sale. Besides, while I am region free, it requires moving wires around and I can't lend the movies out to my friends- so this actually will be a valuable set for me.

I can see where it seems pretty useless if you're not in the US, but I don't know that that's a fair standard to hold Criterion to.

It's probably true that people who care about Criterion at all and Fassbinder in particular are more likely to be region free than the average consumer - however, those with region-free capabilities are still probably a pretty small percentage of Criterion's market.

With that said, I agree that I'd much rather see entirely new offerings, particularly on the Eclipse line. However, I can't really blame them for not always catering to my tastes or the region-free market - after all, there probably are still quite a few people (relatively speaking) who will benefit from this release.

To reverse that argument: what would we poor non-US-citizens do without Criterion? We'd have to endure AE's Satyajit Ray offerings eternally, I suppose....

knives wrote:I don't think that's true at all. Many people especially in America are region locked whether they are a big cinephile or not. I know many Fassbinder fans who have no interest importing for example.

There are also libraries and schools that need North America Region 1 NTSC releases for their patrons/students who can't be expected to have open region capability. IIRC these Eclipse sets sell really well to these institutions.

And some of us choose to purchase exclusively R1 just because

Moe Dickstein wrote:And some of us choose to purchase exclusively R1 just because

But there was Wellspring dvd releases of these in R1, unless the consumer base became Fassbinder fans over the last year or so or they just ignore releases until Criterion slaps the logo on them.

SpiderBaby wrote:But there was Wellspring dvd releases of these in R1, unless the consumer base became Fassbinder fans over the last year or so or they just ignore releases until Criterion slaps the logo on them.

You know, people put this idea forward contemptuously, but there's a lot of already well-known world cinema that I was introduced to through Criterion- that's that whole value of a curator, and I think a lot of people use Criterion's selections as a guide in where to go with movies.

matrixschmatrix wrote:

SpiderBaby wrote:But there was Wellspring dvd releases of these in R1, unless the consumer base became Fassbinder fans over the last year or so or they just ignore releases until Criterion slaps the logo on them.

You know, people put this idea forward contemptuously, but there's a lot of already well-known world cinema that I was introduced to through Criterion- that's that whole value of a curator, and I think a lot of people use Criterion's selections as a guide in where to go with movies.

I agree with that, and not taking that away. I am (as one person) talking about this release in general, I was giving 2 reasons why this might be looked at as better or a "discovery" compared to the other releases of the same films.

Additionally Wellspring has been underground for over a year. I think even back when I started posting here and thus getting a better idea of DVD companies several boutique labels had gone under making it more difficult to get these OOP titles not to mention that there are only so many films one can buy in an instant. For instance I usually buy seven or eight sets a month which I figure is a large amount and still don't get to even a quarter of the new releases I want let alone the hundreds of old release I have yet to get to.

I agree with that, and not taking that away. I am (as one person) talking about this release in general, I was giving 2 reasons why this is looked at as better or a "discovery" compared to the other releases of the same films.[/quote]I'm region locked because my mad spending would intensify if I was allowed to import anything I wanted. With my large kevyip, DVR, Amazon Prime, Netflix, and the library, I'm covered on plenty of things too watch. I've been purposefully ignoring the BFI and MoC threads for so long that I only this week realized several were region free and I went on a spree. I'm excited to add any available Fassbinder I can to my collection, and the wait for them to go R1 is well worth it (though I've been thinking strongly about adding Hulu+ recently to see some titles I've missed).

matrixschmatrix wrote:

SpiderBaby wrote:But there was Wellspring dvd releases of these in R1, unless the consumer base became Fassbinder fans over the last year or so or they just ignore releases until Criterion slaps the logo on them.

You know, people put this idea forward contemptuously, but there's a lot of already well-known world cinema that I was introduced to through Criterion- that's that whole value of a curator, and I think a lot of people use Criterion's selections as a guide in where to go with movies.

Yes, outside of all you fine folks who've directed me to some great titles over the years, I know almost no serious cinephiles and I've long consider Criterion my friend who actually has recommendations worth a damn.

And excuse me for including myself in this little disagreement, as I am talking as a fan, being Fassbinder is my favorite filmmaker. So I do feel some disappointment, not with this release, but with what the future holds with the other Wellspring/Janus Fassbinder titles.

Both of my local libraries already own the Wellspring DVDs, and I expect many others do as well (though they probably would like to have something thats in print, in case something happens to the older DVDs). So I don't think Criterion will be making huge bucks from libraries this time.

I understand the problem with the films: They aren't HD-ready and Criterion knows they'll have to deal with a bigger shitstorm if they released them in SD on the mainline than in Eclipse (the "why no Blus!?1?1" crowd would be endless). Without any major restoration in the foreseeable future, it was always going to be either Hulu or Eclipse for these titles. So the problem is really with Eclipse, probably not with Criterion having a disinterest in Fassbinder.

I suppose the problem I have is that: so far nothing has ever escaped the Eclipse pit to become mainline/better edition from Criterion. It seems pointless to dump these in Eclipse when cheaper alternatives exist abroad (and they even have special features too!) and previous R1 dvds existed. So why even bother licensing the films then? Wellspring might as well have kept them. Sure, many great discoveries have been made thanks to the Eclipse set (the Dušan Makavejev might be the best thing Criterion has done), but its disappointing that they can't see any other solution than barebones SD releases with these films - especially since other regions have gone Bluray with some Eclipse titles (Bergman, Ozu) and many of the films have or previously had special features (in R1/R2, etc).

So why stick to such a rigid principle for Eclipse? Why can't some of them be on Bluray? Companies sell Blurays for $5 at a profit these days, so cost of Bluray can't be the issue in this case. Then why can't Eclipse just have some sort of basic special features? I know its meant to be a bargain line, but it was meant to be the alternative when Criterion was only releasing DVDs anyway - nowadays, its just where everything that isn't up to HD snuff ends up (whereas in the past, we'd get a mainline boxset or a few mainline releases - I don't think anybody would have expected these on Eclipse in 2006/2007). So every Eclipse set now just seems like either: A. Criterion didn't give a shit or B. HD wasn't available (I'm sure there's a C, but A seems all too encompassing).

Thus, I think Criterion should either kill the Eclipse line entirely (Etaix, Frampton and Shoah are great example of a hybrid mainline Eclipse set), start doing Bluray Eclipse sets when possible (essentially what AE did with the Bergman set), or offer something other than liner notes (website special features are just mind-boggling on many levels).

I'll forgive Criterion for dumping Fassbinder titles into an Eclipse set, if they promise to eventually give them the special editions they deserve once restorations have been done (like the promise of Les Miserables to escape Eclipse and make it onto Blu). Until then, I guess this Eclipse set will fill the gap (begrudgingly).

knives wrote:I don't think that's true at all. Many people especially in America are region locked whether they are a big cinephile or not. I know many Fassbinder fans who have no interest importing for example.

I was region locked until recently and I'm pretty positive I've read more than one frequent contributor to this board say the same, then throw in my cinephile friends none of whom are region free and I'd say it's pretty messed up to piss all over this release because Arrow has a better one. Isn't the ultimate idea here to have these films reach as many people as possible? I may opt for buying the Arrow over the Eclipse myself but I'm ecstatic that these films are now available to a much wider audience.

So why even bother licensing the films then?

When they license catalogs they either get the entire set of films or they get nothing. They didn't have the option to exclude these films while picking up the others.

Doesn't this all boil down to: if you don't want it, don't buy it? Otherwise it's pretty absurd for people to be screeching "How dare Criterion release these important films from a major filmmaker that are currently unavailable in their market!!"

And I haven't checked my almanac but I'm pretty sure the "if only Criterion hadn't released this set that I don't want to buy they would definitely have released Rivette's Collected Works instead" fallacy was debunked about twenty years ago.

Out of curiosity, why would anyone who posts on this forum NOT be region free? It's not like it's a luxury; I purchased two region free blu ray players for about a hundred dollars each and now import MoCs and BFIs and Arrows and AEs and StudioCanals to my hearts content. For any serious fan of film (which assumedly everyone on this forum is,) what is the reservation?

domino harvey wrote:

Hey, she's got an Oppo like me!

I only have two non US releases, Cleopatra and Obsession which are both region-free from the UK.

For me it's an OCD thing, I don't like having foreign spines with the ugly ratings logos etc on my shelf. It's a totally stupid reason that I can't defend rationally, I admit that up-front. I hate the Arrow packaging on Obsession but it's DePalma and it was cheap so I did it but I still almost want to just keep it in a drawer away from the others.

As to the Criterions, right now I'm doing the spine-completist thing, so I buy it because it's got a spine and I get some great movies I'd have otherwise never experienced in the deal. I can count the region B/C locked titles on one hand that I'd go and buy a new player to watch, with MoC's Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter? being by far the top of that list. And knowing myself if I let one MoC into my house, I'd have another attack of needing to have all the numbers on my shelf - and when I finish the CC DVD/BD set I still have the Laserdiscs to finish getting...

I lived in Australia for over a year and I still went and bought imported US discs even then...

Whole hosts of reasons ranging from laziness to financial (as in self control, understanding you have none of it)) to knowledge to time. For me personally it came down to laziness and not having what I felt was a good enough set up at home to warrant buying one. Stupid in my opinion to go region free when your tv is in more need of an upgrade than Criterion's Andrei Rublev. That said I would still order a few things from abroad in anticipation of going region free someday that I'd watch on the laptop or in some cases save. Now that I have everything finally in order I'm like the proverbial pig in shit, barely ever want to leave my apartment but hey ya gotta work and let women drive you nuts or there won't be any shit left to be a pig in.