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200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:51 am
by Martha
The Honeymoon Killers
[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/release_images/347/200_box_348x490_w128.jpg[/img]
Martha Beck (Shirley Stoler) is sullen, overweight and heartbreakingly alone. Desperate for affection, she joins Aunt Carrie's Friendship Club and strikes up a correspondence with Ray Fernandez (Tony Lo Bianco), a suave, charismatic smooth talker who could be the man of her dreams—or a wicked con artist bound for trouble. Based on a true story and filmed in documentary-style black and white,
The Honeymoon Killers is a stark portrayal of the desperate lengths a lonely heart will go to find true love, from brutally immoral killings to a passion that transcends all bounds.
Special Features
-New digital transfer, enhanced for widescreen televisions
-New interview with writer/director Leonard Kastle
-Illustrated essay by Scott Christianson (Condemned: Inside the Sing Sing Death House) on the true crime story of “Lonely Hearts Killers” Ray Fernandez and Martha Beck
-Original theatrical trailer
-New essay by critic Gary Giddins
-English subtitles for the deaf and hearing impaired
-Optimal image quality: RSDL dual-layer edition
Criterionforum.org user rating averages
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:03 am
by Matt
Roger Greenspun's original review from the
New York Times:
Leonard Kastle's "The Honeymoon Killers," which opened yesterday at the Cine Malibu and neighborhood theaters, recounts the criminal partnership of Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez, who were executed for murder at Sing Sing Prison, in March, 1951.
Fernandez and the 29-year-old, 200-pound Mrs. Beck, known as the "Lonely Hearts Killers" at the time of their trial, made a career of stealing from lonely women whom Fernandez met through correspondence clubs, with Mrs. Beck, a trained nurse, posing as his sister. Two of their more recalcitrant victims were murdered, and a third died as a result of an overdose of sleeping pills administered by Mrs. Beck.
The movie follows the killers from just before their meeting (through a lonely hearts club correspondence) until just before their trial. Although it takes only the slightest (and most essential) liberties with the facts of the Beck-Fernandez case, "The Honeymoon Killers" is basically a fiction film—of a type virtually unknown in recent years, except as transmuted in the myth-making romanticism of, say, a "Bonnie and Clyde." Within the limits of its type it is one of the best and, curiously, most beautiful American movies in recent years.
Photographed in black and white, with fairly rudimentary sound recording and with lighting that seems always to come from natural sources or from whatever electric light bulbs might be at hand, "The Honeymoon Killers" virtually epitomizes the low-budget murder melodrama of everyone's fondest imaginations.
In fact, it is concerned with murder less as crime than as unambiguous event. There is no conflict between law and disorder, no trail of clues, no hot pursuit, not even much suspense. When Martha decides that Raymond has taken more than monetary interest in one too many of their victims, she calls the police and turns him, and herself, in. And that, without climax, is the end of that.
But "The Honeymoon Killers" has something else — a more concentrated, less cluttered, clearer vision than you are likely to have found in even the best conventional crime movies. Unusually seedy in all its particulars, utterly unflattering to all its characters, sufficiently horrible (but never gratuitously shocking) in the details of its murders, Kastle's film succeeds as a kind of chamber drama of desperate attraction and violent death.
Although it is profoundly involved with the quality of individual middle-class American lives, it completely subordinates anecdote to action and pathos, even the pathos of its central characters, to passion.
The secondary performances range from acceptable to excellent, with special praise for Mary Jane Higby as a 66-year-old Albany widow who proves especially difficult to kill. Shirley Stoler certainly looks the part of Martha Beck, but she brings to the role an air of grand disdain that seems reasonable as interpretation but sometimes awkward in performance. But Tony LoBianco, with slightly too much profile and a characterization that suggests an immensely humanized early Bela Lugosi, is brilliant.
The real star of the movie is its writer-director. Leonard Kastle is a 40-year-old composer who has not previously made films. Oddly, the musical background—selections from Mahler symphonies, which oversell every climax—is the only serious failure in "The Honeymoon Killers." But direction, the sum of those decisions that the filmmaker must feel as moral imperatives and that constitute the authorship of a movie, places Kastle among the important deliberate artists of his medium.
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:00 am
by HerrSchreck
Saw this incidentally for the first time yesterday and was absolutely floored in a way I rarely am by films. There was the first five minutes when I actually started cringing and thinking about how to get my money back for the dvd... then it became immediately clear "why" this was in the CC (aside from the fact that it turned into-- generally-- the kind of film I routinely hunt up among the final frontier of the cinema... old forgotten B's), and I started roaring with shock and laughter and absolute disbelief that a film could be this good. It has the most unbelievable murder scene I've ever seen in a movie-- you'll know it when you see it. An absolute masterpiece. It also has the distinction of having had a post-KNOCKING AT MY DOOR Scorsese fired after ten days for trying to be inappropriately artsy retakey on a 150K budget B.
Apparently was Truffaut's favorite film (though that means jack to me as Turffaut means nothing to me); but the lack of a single comment means there are a lot of very lucky people out there.
SEE THIS FILM!!!!!! Even braver than Brakhage NANOOK etc, this is a real crown jewel in the collection-- the very core and essence of what cinema is supposed to be (after silent film of course...)
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:05 pm
by Gordon
Tony Lo Bianco was such a great actor in those days (he probably still is) but he didn't get enough roles, but he was as good as Pacino, I feel. Have you seen, Larry Cohen's gritty, uncatergorizable 1976 God Told Me To, Schreck? One of the great horror/sci-fi performances by Lo Bianco and a strangely underappreciated film; it's like The French Connection meets Invasion of the Body Snatchers - but weirder.
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:26 pm
by Michael
I agree, Schreck. I loved this when I saw it about 10 years ago. I should see it again. Now I know what to do with my Barnes & Noble gift card.
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:14 pm
by Magic Hate Ball
I liked how at the end of this was what I thought at first to be the funky C, but it turned out to be something else. Maybe it was the inspiration.
Anyways, a fabulous movie in all aspects. One of the few to really unnerve me, possibly because, not only are the characters thoroughly unlikeable (and the people they kill to be just the opposite), but the voyeur element as well. I enjoyed The Naked Kiss for a similar reason. Everything that happens is so wonderfully horrible.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:03 am
by Foam
The first time I saw it was on TCM's Underground a year or so ago. I was completely blown away. I want to see more movies like this.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:36 am
by dad1153
Saw this a couple of days ago on Sundance Channel (DVR). Rarely do I come across movies that split me right down the middle between appreciation and loathing like "The Honeymoon Killers" did (which gives me the perfect excuse to watch it again later). The low-budget filmmaking and bad supporting performances (as in 'not by professional actors') give the subject matter raw authenticity (a framework John McNaughton would use decades later for "Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer"), yet the bad acting outside the leads distracts and undermines what should have been powerful scenes (i.e.
Mary Jane Higby getting 'hammered'

). The lack of "Bonnie & Clyde"-type Hollywood romanticization of the despicable lead characters is a plus (Shirley Stoler and Tony LoBianco totally sell Beck/Fernandez's unpleasantness real well) and yet, unlike "Bonnie & Clyde," this movie is not the least bit entertaining or fun to watch (as drama, dark comedy or even an 'fly on the wall' dramatization of real-life events) except when Tony is front and center. Music cues from Mahler compositions and bad audio are supposed to highlight the dramatic points and/or suck you into the authenticity of the moment. To me they're both annoying as s***, ill-timed technical distractions. I haven't hated a soundtrack so much since Spike Lee used Aaron Copland music to make "He Got Game" seem deeper than it actually was.
Basically I can understand why "The Honeymoon Killers" is a Criterion title (it's miles removed from the contemporary school of serial killer glamorization) but it never spiked my pulse (except for the scenes when Martha mistreats her mother, which were powerful stuff) or felt like anything other than a low-budget "Bonnie & Clyde" ripoff with uglier (i.e. more realistic) people. Tony LoBianco is always fun to watch too, but I guess this goes into the 'maybe on repeat viewing I'll get it... or not' list.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:37 pm
by Foam
I won't presume to tell you that you should love this movie (this is one of those movies like
Trash which I love but am happy just to keep to myself and sometimes will even dissuade a friend from borrowing when they curiously pull it off the shelf), it's not a film I feel all enlightened about for liking or something, and it's all fine and good with me if you think the key graphic scene fell flat for you while it shocked (and continues to shock) me*, but this here:
dad1153 wrote:Music cues from Mahler compositions and bad audio are supposed to [...] suck you into the authenticity of the moment
is a little confusing to me. Maybe I've misread you, but first of all, it assumes that the bad audio is an artistic calculation and not a financial necessity; I assume it is the latter, but I am not sure. Maybe someone who knows more about the production can speak to that. But secondly, how does a non-diegetic Mahler soundtrack, of all things, play into a suspicion of calculated "authenticity"? I see this "it's not as 'authentic' as it thinks it is" sort of complaint hurled at low budget films all the time, as if grainy b&w cinematography is an immediate indication that the filmmaker was trying to be Cassavetes or something, and not merely an indication of financial necessity, or being used for entirely different aesthetic reasons. The use of sound in this film is abrasive for sure and you can like or dislike it however you want, but I think the way it is used to underscore would-be emotional moments is pretty traditional Hollywood rather than an attempt at cinéma vérité or something.
*also maybe put in a spoiler alert?

Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:05 pm
by dad1153
^^^ Spoilered the offending scene for you even though technically we're free to talk about them (the Times' review pretty much spoils the whole movie). And the sound of this movie is just bad (don't like the music, can barely hear the dialogue and often what little dialogue one can hear is muffled/barely-understood) but Mahler's musical cues coming up at the most dramatic moments of the movie does feel like the director is trying to be 'deep' and underscore how important and dramatic what we're watching is (as opposed to letting the big scenes go without music, which would have helped immerse the entire soundtrack-less movie into the sub-genre it seeks to both belong to and escape from). Bad sound (and acting!) from the original shoot + 'deep' Mahler music at dramatic moments (like a "Law & Order" scene when the perp confesses) = Kastle wants us to feel shock at the authentic 'you are here' moment (in which we wouldn't hear/see everything with a neat POV or quality microphone) while simultaneously lifting the whole procedure into something bigger than two scumbags murdering a stupid old woman for her money and careless idiocy (Mahler's tunes point to something other than the moment, a commentary on the universal drama of what we're watching).
Bottom line: the sound of "The Honeymoon Killers" sucks but Kastle turned his audio lemons (no budget, crap recording equipment) into the best lemonade he could fashion (affordable Mahler music samples, mostly-listenable audio) and happened to create something that, in conjunction with the good lead performances and movie being liked by enough people to make it a cult hit, saved him from being raked over the coals for releasing something that just plain sounded bad. IMHO of course. O:)
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:49 pm
by MyNameCriterionForum
This is like a John Waters film... but good.
***
Focusing on the technical limitations of this film kinda seems beside the point, in my opnion.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:56 pm
by dad1153
If the movie had been any good I would have overlooked (or minimized) the technical shortcomings. As it currently is though the bad sound/picture are just adding insult to having to put up with the lack of sick laughs/drama/compelling story and amateurish supporting performances. Again, remove Tony LoBianco from this (and to a lesser degree Shirley Stoler, who is good but needs Tony's charisma to bounce her performance from) and there's almost nothing good left besides a fatter Nurse Ratchet psychologically torturing her older mother (which a good movie does not make).
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:20 pm
by HistoryProf
I have to agree with dad1153 on this one. this isn't a case of "it's so bad it's good." For me, the quality of the sound and acting was so atrocious it was just distracting, and I really ended up disliking the film by the end - which was completely unexpected as it's subject matter is usually something I absolutely love. I was terribly underwhelmed by it all, however, and I never stopped cringing as it played out.
And I have to ask, has anyone ever actually ROARED with shock and laughter watching a movie by themselves at home? I realize hyperbole is HerrSchreck's leitmotif, but the image is incredibly amusing and uncomfortable all at once

Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:20 pm
by Foam
HistoryProf wrote:And I have to ask, has anyone ever actually ROARED with shock and laughter watching a movie by themselves at home? I realize hyperbole is HerrSchreck's leitmotif, but the image is incredibly amusing and uncomfortable all at once

I have! He may have been going for the literary but it describes my reaction literally, late one dark night in the basement of my parents' home. I am the type to exclaim to myself when I've been tickled particularly well, but for me it's usually only when I am alone. Watching in a theater with other people I usually can't work up the nerve. Horror movies usually only work for me by myself.
I have to say I just don't relate to any sort of "This is bad" or "This is so bad it's good" stuff, though I could understand why someone else would feel this way. Like Schreck when I first started watching it I was worried I was going to end up wasting my time, but slowly it started to reveal itself and I became obsessed, and now for me it's one of the many films I consider simply "Good", with "Bad" not entering into the picture at all.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:07 am
by mfunk9786
dad1153 wrote:If the movie had been any good I would have overlooked (or minimized) the technical shortcomings. As it currently is though the bad sound/picture are just adding insult to having to put up with the lack of sick laughs/drama/compelling story and amateurish supporting performances. Again, remove Tony LoBianco from this (and to a lesser degree Shirley Stoler, who is good but needs Tony's charisma to bounce her performance from) and there's almost nothing good left besides a fatter Nurse Ratchet psychologically torturing her older mother (which a good movie does not make).
Wait, so you're saying your point is "remove the two leads of the film and all you're left with is the first 15 minutes of the film"?
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:38 am
by dad1153
^^^ Basically Tony and Shirley carry this film (more the former than the latter) in that at least they're good-enough actors to make you hate their characters. But early on, when Tony is barely in the picture, Shirley has a couple of scenes with Dortha Duckworth (particularly when Martha dumps her elder mother in a home while on her way to NY to meet-up with Ray) that to me were very effective and resonated powerfully. Seeing a poor old woman abused and abandoned by her uncaring daughter (Duckworth's non-acting skills actually work quite well here; a trained actress might have come across as phony or mannered in her cries and threats as Martha walks away leaving her behind) is drama and, for a handful of scenes when this was happening, "The Honeymoon Killers" to me seemed to be on the right path. Then the rest of the "actors" kept showing up and the drama/dark comedy/compelling narrative failed to materialize as the running time unfolded, thus plummeting my enjoyment of the flick accordingly.
BTW, we more than doubled the number of posts on this thread since its 2005 creation. Coincidence?

Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:40 pm
by HerrSchreck
It's been awhile since I've watched the film, but one thing I can say with absolute certainty-- and should probably be clear to any reviewer worth the mere weight of his sac-- is that this film is not going to be for everyone.
The quality of the sound and image, for instance: for me this lends to the experience of watching the film. As in the lifestyles of the characters themselves, so it goes for the execution of the film itself... fringe, fringe, fringe. An almost uncomfortable sense of untidy obscurity.. dirt and must, a sense of something stinky lurking just offscreen on the set that needs to be cleaned up.
It's almost a sort of accidental expressionism, this low-rent patina hanging over the film, a byproduct of its production values fortuitously corresponding to the nature of the tale.
There was a world that existed in obscurity and on the fringe in the period of the 1950's to the 1970's. It was found in the back of detective magazines, magazines about UFO's, wrestling mags-- personal ads that used to be placed... this when pornography essentially didn't exist for all intents and purposes beyond the secret smut in papas bottom drawer (Cue DIRTY LOVE by Zappa). In the cities in squalid borderline neighborhoods where there were for example stores that sold artificial limbs, stores that sold novelty items, rubber vomit and magic tricks, all surrounded by abandoned buildings and long vacant manufacturing lofts.. and out on the old country back roads in dilapidated shacks where wheel-less cars sit up on four cinderblocks, when the country was much more far flung, it was in these neighborhoods you'd find these kinds of strange human specimens. Back when the police didn't have the enormous technological edge that they do now, where there was far greater human isolation because of the lack of interconnectedness-- it was a lot easier in this environment to be a traveling hustler or con artist, run a strange mail order business out of a PO box, whatever. Lonely middle aged men and women were very vulnerable to these people, because of the repressed atmosphere.
This is the world that the film conjures up for me. It's cheapness and low-rent atmosphere merely adds to the feeling of dipping a foot into the oiliness of the story. Not everybody likes this kind of subject matter. Not everybody appreciates being stimulated by this kind of material-- or having those rearward, off-to-the-side, slightly uncomfortable parts of their mind strummed. Not everybody appreciates absurdity either-- but for me there are times when almost nothing else will do.
So while I'm not surprised that there are folks that don't get what CC/Janus/critics see in the film, I can assure you guys with all due respect that this:
this movie is not the least bit entertaining or fun to watch
is going to be, for many people, one of those "speak for yourself, pal," moments.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:40 pm
by Gregory
HerrSchreck wrote:There was a world that existed in obscurity and on the fringe in the period of the 1950's to the 1970's. It was found in the back of detective magazines, magazines about UFO's, wrestling mags-- personal ads that used to be placed... this when pornography essentially didn't exist for all intents and purposes beyond the secret smut in papas bottom drawer ...
There is something related to what you're talking about that I think forms a crucial part of the context of the connections between sex and violence as they were codified in film noir and noir fiction, of which Honeymoon Killers was a post-1960s regurgitation (and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense).
Pornography had a different form, one that was more raw and more covert, in the pre-Playboy era (pre-'53, a bit different than the time-frame you're referencing).
To quote Jimmie Durham,
Before Playboy, American men read the Police Gazette. The "girlie" photos in the Police Gazette were of women against whom violent crimes had been committed. Men gazed at the bloodied bodies, read the descriptions of the crimes, and tried to look further up the victims' skirts than the photos allowed ... Playboy made pornography and voyeurism wholesome for the new bourgeoisie of America ... No, wait; I'm sorry, that's not true. What happened was simply that the market became more specialized and efficient. Now the guys who are blatantly pathological have their own magazine and there are other magazines for every degree of more acceptable pathologies.
I should note that I don't necessarily endorse the generalizations he makes about "American men," but I think his point tells us a lot about the context of sexual repression and pathology during the era in which film noir and detective fiction were at their peak, as well as what happened later.
The implications of this for our society are not pretty, and most critics and scholars of noir (aside from most of those who are feminist in their orientation) don't seem to like to discuss or even acknowledge this context, as far as I've seen. Nonetheless, debates relevant to this have filtered into most people's consciousness in various ways since Honeymoon Killers was made, which has radically changed how people tend to view "trash"/"exploitation" films. 1969 was an interesting time for a film like Honeymoon Killers to be made. It could likely be seen as the end of an era in some ways, the beginning of a new one, or both.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:31 pm
by zedz
Gregory wrote:I should note that I don't necessarily endorse the generalizations he makes about "American men," but I think his point tells us a lot about the context of sexual repression and pathology during the era in which film noir and detective fiction were at their peak
As does the creepy fact that dozens of men - some of whom were far too young to have been responsible - confessed to one of the grisliest unsolved crimes of the 40s, the murder of Elizabeth Short, over a period of decades. (Though not, apparently, the actual killer.)
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:04 pm
by dad1153
HerrSchreck wrote:It's almost a sort of accidental expressionism, this low-rent patina hanging over the film, a byproduct of its production values fortuitously corresponding to the nature of the tale.
I like this explanation a lot. To their credit Leonard Kastle and his crew (the technical one, not the one's in front of the camera) knew the limits of their production and didn't try to stage a romantic comedy or sci-fi spectacle (don't laugh, the latter would have been an easy way to make a quick cheap buck in the drive-in circuit). It still doesn't excuse the fact that you can barely hear what is said and that many (not all but lots) of the camera angles are just awful. The taboo America you describe must have been explored in similar movies (in tone, subject matter and low-budget imperfections amplifying the freak factor) and I'd be curious if you could mention some of them for comparison's sake. Ray Dennis Stackler's "The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies!!?" comes to mind (not in a direct comparison to "The Honeymoon Killers" but more in its exploration of the outskirts of American society you described circa the '53-'70 decades) but I'm open to suggestions of what movies explored the same path that I personally feel "Honeymoon Killers" tried to evoke and failed. Maybe moving the story of Beck and Fernandez to the 'present' (late 60's) instead of the actual time/decade it took place (the more repressed post-WWII years) is where the disconnect takes place that makes me not see or appreciate what many other well-meaning movie lovers see in this flick.
HerrSchreck wrote:So while I'm not surprised that there are folks that don't get what CC/Janus/critics see in the film, I can assure you guys with all due respect that this:
dad1153 wrote:this movie is not the least bit entertaining or fun to watch
is going to be, for many people, one of those "speak for yourself, pal," moments.

Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:46 pm
by HistoryProf
HerrSchreck wrote:It's been awhile since I've watched the film, but one thing I can say with absolute certainty-- and should probably be clear to any reviewer worth the mere weight of his sac-- is that this film is not going to be for everyone.
The quality of the sound and image, for instance: for me this lends to the experience of watching the film. As in the lifestyles of the characters themselves, so it goes for the execution of the film itself... fringe, fringe, fringe. An almost uncomfortable sense of untidy obscurity.. dirt and must, a sense of something stinky lurking just offscreen on the set that needs to be cleaned up.
It's almost a sort of accidental expressionism, this low-rent patina hanging over the film, a byproduct of its production values fortuitously corresponding to the nature of the tale.
I do like this rendering of the film...and I see precisely what you are saying. I guess appreciating that doesn't make it any more likable for me, just as I am not any more likely to want to hang out in those back alleys.
HerrSchreck wrote:
So while I'm not surprised that there are folks that don't get what CC/Janus/critics see in the film, I can assure you guys with all due respect that this:
this movie is not the least bit entertaining or fun to watch
is going to be, for many people, one of those "speak for yourself, pal," moments.
and after such a fantastic ode to the film, you had to go here. sad. Not liking something doesn't mean we don't "get it." I understand perfectly well WHY it's in the collection....I just don't happen to care for it. I always thought you were a bit above that kind of snide pretentiousness. Guess not.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:13 pm
by HerrSchreck
Gentlemen, there is no need to be so sensitive. Specifically, I was responding to statements that dadnumbers made, like
If the movie had been any good
this movie is not the least bit entertaining or fun to watch
...these are blanket, sweeping statements about the film, which for me are always no no's on a board like this: assessments that run beyond the bounds of individual taste-- I'm perfectly entitled to respond "Speak for yourself," if you make "factual" pronouncements about the film. There's nothing offensive or wrong with saying "Speak for yourself" and I genuinely-- help me here-- don't understand why something like that should open a wound.
As for the prof, you pulled me in here with,
I realize hyperbole is HerrSchreck's leitmotif, but the image is incredibly amusing and uncomfortable all at once
So I spoke for myself, after you didn't seem to fully and publicly grasp what I saw in the film, and I spoke for myself and gave you plenty of room in my post to disagree with me by stating from the outset that any critic is going to be rather shortsighted to expect there to be a stable qualitative opinion on this film, and many are not going to like it.
There's no argument or insult intended.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:18 pm
by dad1153
HerrSchreck wrote:Gentlemen, there is no need to be so sensitive. Specifically, I was responding to statements that dadnumbers made, like
If the movie had been any good
this movie is not the least bit entertaining or fun to watch
...these are blanket, sweeping statements about the film, which for me are always no no's on a board like this: assessments that run beyond the bounds of individual taste-- I'm perfectly entitled to respond "Speak for yourself," if you make "factual" pronouncements about the film. There's nothing offensive or wrong with saying "Speak for yourself" and I genuinely-- help me here-- don't understand why something like that should open a wound.
Guess I'll have to make sure to bold and underline '
IMHO' after every definitive statement I make from now on. I thought it was a given when talking about movies in a smart and intelligent internet forum like this one that we were stating personal opinions (backed by observations and interpretations) about a select number of movies whose very inclusion under the 'Criterion' banner makes them subject to debate. I can see why some (most) people like and think "The Honeymoon Killers" deserves the Criterion treatment. I don't have an opinion on whether it should be a Criterion or not, just that in its present form (technically and 'mise en scene') it's not a motion picture I enjoyed, liked enough to recommend others to see or would want to watch again (though I eventually will since a repeat viewing has worked wonders in the past, i.e. "Juliet of the Spirits" went from near-zero to 'it's OK' the 2nd time around). :-k
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:44 am
by HerrSchreck
dad1153 wrote:Guess I'll have to make sure to bold and underline 'IMHO' after every definitive statement I make from now on.
Actually, minus the sarcastic suggestion of a need for boldface and underlining, what you've just suggested is an excellent idea and rather old hat for most members here... take it from an old hand who's seen plenty of dustups and learned firsthand from many of them. It's what divides a respectful, intelligent discussion from sophomoric argumentation. Walking into somebody's living room and looking at a beloved painting and saying "If this painting had been any good, it.." or "the work is not the least bit pleasing to look at," it will follow that you are going to
irritate rather than
stimulate.
But I still can't understand the hypersensitivity to the reply of "Speak for yourself." I thought I was rather mild.
Assertions re Mr. Hyperbole J. Leitmotif notwithstanding.
Re: 200 The Honeymoon Killers
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:19 pm
by Minkin