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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:45 pm
by zedz
mute nostril agony wrote:Interesting, I never would have guessed the Italian version was dubbed.
To the best of my knowledge, practically all Italian films (at least in this period) were dubbed. Fellini has often been hailed as a seamless practitioner, but it generally seems pretty obvious - and sometimes awkward - to me with his films. Pasolini's dubbing is almost surreally disjunctive at times, but it's so brazen it becomes part of his aesthetic.
Does anybody know of any major Italian filmmakers who
didn't follow this practice?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:42 am
by Arcadean
I don't remember where I got this info but I remember I heard it somewhere. Some of it might be wrong because I am going just on memory here. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
The reason all Italian films were dubbed is there were no soundstages in Cinecitta . When sound came in, Italy decided not to join in. If you were to record sound in Cinecitta I don't think it'd sound very good (you'd probably hear lots of echoes). This also gave Italian filmmakers a lot more room to maneuver and they didn't have to worry about recording the voices. It also just became tradition because they could have soundproofed the studio. I think they actually did soundproof it when they remodeled it.
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:31 am
by der_Artur
I never heard of the lack of soundstages, but of the fact that the studios were not soundproof. So what about this? Where is this contradicting information coming from? I feel a little bit unsettled about what to believe concerning the development of Italian cinema.
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:42 pm
by skuhn8
golgothicon wrote:I never heard of the lack of soundstages, but of the fact that the studios were not soundproof. So what about this? Where is this contradicting information coming from? I feel a little bit unsettled about what to believe concerning the development of Italian cinema.
Lack of soundproofing is correct. If I recall Cinicitta is near some significant airport traffic and has been since the war, though I don't recall if that was specifically the greatest concern soundwise. I believe the 8 1/2 commentary addresses some of the post-synch issues in the first half of the film.
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:00 am
by macaca
Why is it that most films with not-so-good ADR are always directed by Italians? (Battle of Algiers, Bicycle Thieves, 8 1/2, The Good the Bad & the Ugly, etc). I'm sure theres a technical reason, but I'm not sure what it is.
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:50 am
by MichaelB
macaca wrote:Why is it that most films with not-so-good ADR are always directed by Italians? (Battle of Algiers, Bicycle Thieves, 8 1/2, The Good the Bad & the Ugly, etc). I'm sure theres a technical reason, but I'm not sure what it is.
In the very early days of sound, Mussolini insisted that all films be shown in Italian, lest subversive messages get through in foreign tongues. And while that edict was ultimately scrapped, Italian filmmakers had already got into the habit of shooting films silent (often with multilingual casts) and dubbing them afterwards - not just into Italian but every other language that would be required for international distribution.
And because this was standard practice in commercial Italian cinema, it became equally common in so-called "art" cinema, compounded by people like Fellini habitually casting people for their appearance rather than their acting ability (Pontecorvo did the same in
Battle of Algiers), so you'd get that situation regardless of the film's nationality.
But Italy is by no means the only offender - you should try watching 1970s and 80s Hong Kong films!
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:02 pm
by kinjitsu
MichaelB wrote:In the very early days of sound, Mussolini insisted that all films be shown in Italian, lest subversive messages get through in foreign tongues.
That's not entirely true:
Dubbing was a way to evade dubious elements in foreign films: it was easy to change dialogue that denigrated Italy in any way or could pose other potential menacing influences. Hollywood films, however, did not suffer any particular prejudice, since they too were subject to the comprehensive restrictions of the Production Code ...
A good example of how cinema, under Freddi, became a tool through which the government promulgated its policies was language. The regime's agenda of Italianzation manifested itself on a linguistic as well as a geographic plane. The standardization of language, spearheaded by Achile Starace, became an integral component of collective unification. The attempt to eliminate the use of regional dialects in favor of "standard" Italian, to decontaminate the "standard" of barbarisms, and to substitute the personal pronoun "Voi" for the Spanish-influenced "Lei" in formal situations all aimed to purify the Italian spirit and abolish difference ... cinema, like other mass media, became the tool through which the government promulgated its policies.
â€â€Jacqueline Reich, Re-viewing Fascism: Italian Cinema, 1922-1943 - Mussolini at the Movies: Fascism, Film and Culture
Italian is a language spoken only by dubbers. â€â€Ennio Flaiano
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:41 pm
by Don Lope de Aguirre
Does anybody know of any major Italian filmmakers who didn't follow this practice?
If memory serves correctly (from the extras of Partner) Bertolucci prided himself on not following this practice. (He was very influenced by the nouvelle vague).
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:15 pm
by ambrose1am
I took a film class at the University of Pavia in 2001 and was shocked to find myself watching a dubbed version of REAR WINDOW. In a film class! I asked my professor, a Bunuel scholar, why there was so much dubbing in Italian films and he said there were three reasons:
1. Lack of soundproofing and money for expensive synching.
2. Mussolini's desire to purge the language of foreign elements.
3. The industry of dubbing itself, which puts a lot of actors to work and therefore perpetuates itself.
Dubbing is still routine in Italian films, though they have good soundstages now. The industry of "dubbing actors" continues to grow so it's unlikely things will change. The Italian film industry is doing a disservice by not promoting and releasing films in V.O.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:55 pm
by MichaelB
I took an Italian friend to see Il Postino when it came out, and she was astounded that it was in her native language - she expected it to be in dubbed English. In fact, she'd never even seen subtitles up to that point.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:01 pm
by ambrose1am
MichaelB wrote:I took an Italian friend to see Il Postino when it came out, and she was astounded that it was in her native language - she expected it to be in dubbed English. In fact, she'd never even seen subtitles up to that point.
Hilarious. Case in point--a disservice to Italian speakers.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:04 pm
by MichaelB
ambrose1am wrote:Hilarious. Case in point--a disservice to Italian speakers.
Mind you, Philippe Noiret was fairly blatantly dubbed, so even the supposed <i>versione originale</i> was hardly a model of linguistic authenticity...
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:08 pm
by kinjitsu
This is a Frenchman playing a Chilean in exile on an Italian island, so what other language would you expect him to be speaking? Esperanto?
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:12 pm
by MichaelB
kinjitsu wrote:This is a Frenchman playing a Chilean in exile on an Italian island, so what other language would you expect him to be speaking? Esperanto?
Yes, I suppose the traumas of exile must have caused a fundamental disconnection between his lip movements and the sounds that actually emerged.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:46 pm
by kinjitsu
A pity because I enjoy listening to Noiret's voice, and also because he very likely spoke a passable Italian, albeit with a French accent. From what I can recall, his voice was dubbed in all of his Italian films.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:49 pm
by MichaelB
Talking of eccentric dubbing practices, there's a fascinating nugget on the Terence Stamp interview on the upcoming BFI DVD of Teorema in which he reveals that everyone was asked to speak English while shooting (despite Pasolini not speaking a word of English)...
...after which Pasolini completely rewrote the script from scratch and dubbed totally new dialogue in Italian.
If true, Pasolini presumably realised that it would paradoxically be less jarring if everyone was obviously dubbed than might be the case if he was having to dub new Italian dialogue over different Italian lip movements.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:21 pm
by tryavna
ambrose1am wrote:3. The industry of dubbing itself, which puts a lot of actors to work and therefore perpetuates itself.
Apparently, it's the same case in Germany. I remember a German friend telling me he had seen
O Brother Where Art Thou in dubbed German. Since (whether you like it or not) so much of that movie's "point" lies in its characters use of language and accent, I can't imagine it making any sense at all -- it must have been an entirely different movie altogether.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:02 pm
by LionelHutz
tryavna wrote:ambrose1am wrote:3. The industry of dubbing itself, which puts a lot of actors to work and therefore perpetuates itself.
Apparently, it's the same case in Germany. I remember a German friend telling me he had seen
O Brother Where Art Thou in dubbed German. Since (whether you like it or not) so much of that movie's "point" lies in its characters use of language and accent, I can't imagine it making any sense at all -- it must have been an entirely different movie altogether.
You're touching a painful subject here... In Italy every damn foreign film is only available dubbed in theaters (except for festivals and special showings). They even dubbed Letters from Iwo Jima, just to give you an idea. This is just terrible and people here got so used to that they think it's impossible to read subtitles while watching a film. Oh, the humanity!
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:30 pm
by lord_clyde
I actually rather enjoy the dubbing of Dario Argento's movies, as the English dialogue sounds rather natural and seamless. Well, not seamless, it's obvious it's a dub but it doesn't take me out of the movie. The 'Deep Red' DVD however, with it's constant switching back and forth between English and Italian was a pain in the ass.
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:30 am
by Sortini
I remember reading somewhere that there was a version of Godard's Contempt that was dubbed in English. Since one of the characters is an interpreter, the American distributor made up new dialogue for her to say since she no longer could be translating. Anyone knows if this is a true story?
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:13 am
by zedz
Sortini wrote:I remember reading somewhere that there was a version of Godard's Contempt that was dubbed in English. Since one of the characters is an interpreter, the American distributor made up new dialogue for her to say since she no longer could be translating. Anyone knows if this is a true story?
I've never listened to it to know if that story's true, but the English dub is on the Criterion disc, so somebody here can surely verify.
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:11 am
by MichaelB
lord_clyde wrote:The 'Deep Red' DVD however, with it's constant switching back and forth between English and Italian was a pain in the ass.
...but unavoidable given that the English dub was only recorded after the much shorter international cut had been prepared.