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Since this ranked so high on the recent silent era list, I was curious if anyone had compared the two available R1 DVDs of the film. I've only seen the Image version. How does Kino's stack up to this? Is the Nyman score any good (I like Nyman, but does it "work")?

I've had the Image for years & never had motivation to buy the Kino, especially since the Eastman print on the Image is gorgeous/nitrate-sourced, cropped to the 1.2/1 Vertov specs, and the score attempts to correspond to Vertovs written instructions. Why should I listen to one man's reinterpretation of what score the film "should instead" have, when any number of other composers could have done same yet have duly held back out of respect for Vertov?

Some reviews that I found online seem to suggest that the Kino looks better. Can anyone corroborate that? We need some screen caps.

denti alligator wrote:Some reviews that I found online seem to suggest that the Kino looks better. Can anyone corroborate that? We need some screen caps.

Where'd you read that? You sure you're not talking about the hideous bfi release which was marred to high hell w damage (that release had the precise cover as the Image)?

I'd never seen that & I researched pretty heavy at one point. I heard they were basically par. Good luck getting Gary to post caps for Kino nowadays. His wound may never heal.

Go with the Image one. I have thje Kino, but I have n't watched it. I did also have the image one. It's got a commentary and a sweet soundtrack by the Kronos Quartet

Perhaps wait for a few weeks. There will be a new version of it in Germany from "arte stummfilmedition" who are generally doing very good work by the end of June:

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B ... 29-5186430

I fear that they will probably not have the multiple soundtrack choices that the BFI has (and how I LOVE that In The Nursery version), but the image quality will most likely be far superior (not just to the indeed horrendous BFI image, but possibly also to the other versions available). No further info available to me yet.

oldsheperd wrote:Go with the Image one. I have thje Kino, but I have n't watched it. I did also have the image one. It's got a commentary and a sweet soundtrack by the Kronos Quartet

I'd be intrigued to hear the Kronos Quartet take a stab at scoring Vertov's masterpiece, but the Image disc features an "original score composed and performed by the Alloy Orchestra, based on musical instructions written by Dziga Vertov." The excellent commentary is by Yuri Tsivian.

The Kino score is by Michael Nyman.

I also vote for the Image.

My apologies. I was going from memory. At least I thought I was.

A substitution of titles, but has anyone watched both the Kino and Image EARTH discs (the former includes THE END OF ST. PETERSBURG and CHESS FEVER). I've been meaning to pick up both EARTH and ST. PETERSBURG, but each have dual releases in R1 land (ST. PETERSBURG also has an Image release which includes DESERTER). Comparative reviews of these titles seen to be non-existant--anyone have an opinion on the best option (or superior alternatives overseas)?

Titus wrote:A substitution of titles, but has anyone watched both the Kino and Image EARTH discs (the former includes THE END OF ST. PETERSBURG and CHESS FEVER). I've been meaning to pick up both EARTH and ST. PETERSBURG, but each have dual releases in R1 land (ST. PETERSBURG also has an Image release which includes DESERTER). Comparative reviews of these titles seen to be non-existant--anyone have an opinion on the best option (or superior alternatives overseas)?

Apparently, Kino and Image both use the same print of EARTH. (I guess Kino has access to the print from back in the days when David Shepard worked with them.) At any rate, I really can't recommend either -- both are based on a very, very weak print. If you're dying to see it, then I recommend you go the Image/Blackhawk route. I forget what EARTH is paired with, but the DESERTER/END OF ST. PETERSBURG release is very pleasing. And I also recommend Image's release of CHESS FEVER/BED AND BOARD (with a sharp commentary for BED AND BOARD). Generally, Shepard's more recent releases have been decent, but EARTH just happens to be one of those disappointing results from a few years ago when his DVD track record was still very spotty.

Tommaso wrote:Perhaps wait for a few weeks. There will be a new version of it in Germany from "arte stummfilmedition" who are generally doing very good work by the end of June:

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B ... 29-5186430

I fear that they will probably not have the multiple soundtrack choices that the BFI has (and how I LOVE that In The Nursery version), but the image quality will most likely be far superior (not just to the indeed horrendous BFI image, but possibly also to the other versions available). No further info available to me yet.

Thanks for this tip, Tommaso. I think I'll blind buy this one, since I've got an amazon.de order about ready. I'll report back on the quality.

There is also another release by Ninja Tune on DVD,
with Cinematic Orchestra's soundtrack over the film.

Havent seen this version, but I absolutely love Cinematic Orchestra

Titus wrote:has anyone watched both the Kino and Image EARTH discs (the former includes THE END OF ST. PETERSBURG and CHESS FEVER).

I have both DVDs. Tryavna is right in saying that both versions originate from the same print, but I notice a slight but irksome difference between the two transfers. The first five minutes or so of the image disc have a tape bend at the top of the image that flickers in and out (like old VHS). The Kino version (w/ Chess Fever and End of St. Petersberg) which is a later release appears to have fixed this issue. For me that was reason enough to go with Kino.

HerrSchreck wrote:I've had the Image for years & never had motivation to buy the Kino, especially since the Eastman print on the Image is gorgeous/nitrate-sourced, cropped to the 1.2/1 Vertov specs, and the score attempts to correspond to Vertovs written instructions. Why should I listen to one man's reinterpretation of what score the film "should instead" have, when any number of other composers could have done same yet have duly held back out of respect for Vertov?

So, you believe the claims of the score being true to Vertov's "intentions"? I guess we've been over this one before, but those are such vague directions of Vertov's; they could be interpreted any number of ways....but certainly there's nothing in the Alloy's approach that sounds even remotely authentic to my ears.... it just sounds like another Alloy "bang on a bunch of stuff" score. Certainly there's nothing so faithful or authentic that warrants damning other's supposed reinterpretations, when this is EXACTLY what the Alloy group does!

unclehulot wrote:

HerrSchreck wrote:I've had the Image for years & never had motivation to buy the Kino, especially since the Eastman print on the Image is gorgeous/nitrate-sourced, cropped to the 1.2/1 Vertov specs, and the score attempts to correspond to Vertovs written instructions. Why should I listen to one man's reinterpretation of what score the film "should instead" have, when any number of other composers could have done same yet have duly held back out of respect for Vertov?

So, you believe the claims of the score being true to Vertov's "intentions"? I guess we've been over this one before, but those are such vague directions of Vertov's; they could be interpreted any number of ways....but certainly there's nothing in the Alloy's approach that sounds even remotely authentic to my ears.... it just sounds like another Alloy "bang on a bunch of stuff" score. Certainly there's nothing so faithful or authentic that warrants damning other's supposed reinterpretations, when this is EXACTLY what the Alloy group does!

Uncle HULOT! You've gone sour!

Hey friend, I'd say it's safe to say any set of open ended instructions could be interpreted any number of ways. Did you come on asking "How do you feel about Alloy's interpretation?," to which my answer would be-- "Ho hum example of silent score wasteland-ness, but at least it's not KTEL's Blazing 80's Mod Hits!!, and at least they attempted to follow Vertov's instructions. You even hear Alloy using classical string figures.. legitimate phrasings too. And the clanking you mention actually works as the narrator of the film, in a certain sense, is the mechanized eye of the camera.. which walks, stripteases, looms robotlike over the city, zaps it's lens in & out all machine-balletlike.. not to mention all the clanking metal & machines in the text. More corresponding than Pet Shop Boys, no?" We also have Vertov's declaration that this film was a transition from Kino-eye to Radio-Eye, reflecting a fascination with radio waves (many closeups of speakers & electronics, thus Alloy's specific use of frequency effects, radio effects, etc, all to correspond to the industrialization & modernization fetished in the text

Mike Nyman does no such thing. This "score" just discards Vertovs instructions completely and does an advertisement for itself. Therefore it is not to my mind a legitimate reinterpretation of Vertov's instructions, and this is an opinion which I'd prefer not to by nannyscolded for, thanks. Silent music scoring pretty much sucks all the way around these days, turning the innofensive into the comparative masterpiece (how desperate does it get?)... and I am not the reason that They All Suck Crystalized Snot.

Here it is:

from the Liner notes of In the Nursery's MAN WITH THE MOVIE CAMERA SCORE wrote:The Humberstone brothers have, rightly, eschewed any attempt at recreation of Vertov's musical instructions or 1920s constructivist pastiche

So according to them, there is no even passing desire to acknowledge Vertov's written instructions.

Tommaso wrote:Perhaps wait for a few weeks. There will be a new version of it in Germany from "arte stummfilmedition" who are generally doing very good work by the end of June:

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B ... 29-5186430

I fear that they will probably not have the multiple soundtrack choices that the BFI has (and how I LOVE that In The Nursery version), but the image quality will most likely be far superior (not just to the indeed horrendous BFI image, but possibly also to the other versions available). No further info available to me yet.

Have you seen the Eastman House preservation nitrate, from which the Image disc is made from? The sucker is quite nice, you have english subs, a nice commentary by Yuri Tsivian who assembles all the cryptic pieces of the visual crossword puzzle quite expertly with no twaddle, a score that at least attempts to follow Vertov's instructions, a liner notes essay giving scoring instructions & putting a frame around the movie historically-- and all at a nice price. A classic disc. I wouldn't hesitate Denti-- when it aint broke, keep the toolbox where it is.

EDIT/ALSO: The Kino triple header EARTH/END OF ST PETERSBRG/CHESS FVR is a quite nice disc. All editions of EARTH completely blow because of the condition of the Soviet "restoration" which took plave in the late 60's or early 70's I believe. The EOSP is from what I understand a superlative presentation of the same Mosfilm restoration imported by Shepard on the Image/Kino, with a better transfer on the newer Kino.

HerrSchreck wrote:
Uncle HULOT! You've gone sour!

Yes, sorry, I know that you've given much thought to this. Perhaps I'm just sour on the Alloy hubris.........but I didn't realize Nyman outdid them in this regard! Perhaps it's just my wish that Alloy had incorporated something of the "feel" of the Soviet avant-garde of that period. I feel that even a completely "concrete" score would have some element of harmony (dissonant or otherwise). I think I would have reacted less more positively to their interpretation if it hadn't been accompanied (as it was on the original LD release) with Vertov's instructions, which for the life of me I couldn't discern audibly in their score.

Seems like you have gone a bit sour on contemporary silent film accompanying. I understand where you're coming from, but having performed scores for several films with no existing original scores, I think it's still possible to respect and be faithful to the film, but it's certainly not a walk in the park!

Anyhow, didn't mean to offend!

All's well that ends well where civilized chaps are involved. Over on the silent film music thread I started I actually complained about the brainless swish cymbals & clink clanking bullshit of Alloy, though their faux strings & attempt at harmony-- and all the mechanization in Vertov's film-- finds me thinking this is one instance where an Alloy score sorta works. The rest of the time I have no use for them. I rarely find use for pop music themes in silent films. At least not during formal presentations of a classic, where I am supposed to accept these techno scores as "status quo/normal"...

As for the Nyman info I quoted you can read the liner notes over here, in the nursery

I think the print on the Image disc was the basis for the first BFI disc (including the Tsivian commentary), but for some reason they made a horrendous NTSC/PAL transfer, rendering some scenes virtually unwatchable.

Howver, there seems to be a little confusion here. The Michael Nyman soundtrack is not the same as the In The Nursery soundtrack. There are TWO BFI editions, one features Alloy/In The Nursery/Tsivian, and the other only the Michael Nyman one (which I haven't heard). So the statements quoted by Herr Schreck all apply to the In the Nursery version, and Mike Nyman is not to blame..

But as I said before, I really love the ITN version. Of course they did not attempt to follow Vertov's instructions, but what they did is a radical new interpretation, offering a completely different view on these images. Their music enhances the 'transcendent' character of the film, makes it more dreamlike, more 'poetic', more majestically flowing. Probably this is not what Vertov originally wanted, but these aspects ARE in the film, and after 75 years or so it is okay if somebody highlights them. Very beautiful, in my view.

Salute for the correction-- there's so much score peddling I can't keep up with these dudes 100% of the time. I do know the bfi image was considered horrendous and the Image/Kino basically par.

Their music ... makes it more dreamlike, more 'poetic', more majestically flowing

for you. The factualist talk arising from your Tommasso-exclusive taste is, well, nice-- but still Tomasso-taste. (had to use red cause I think of tomato paste)

Probably this is not what Vertov originally wanted, but these aspects ARE in the film, and after 75 years or so it is okay if somebody highlights them

When did I say "these aspects" (I'm guessing you mean dreamlike, poetic, majestically flowing) ARE NOT in the film, or say it is not okay for someone to hilight them? I wouldn't usually get this deep into the rarified logic of a superidiosycratic argument, but you seem to be creating the following equation:

1) Following Vertov's instructions = blocking majestically flowing aspects/denying the dreamlike/poetic because it is not okay,

whereby therefore

2) ignoring vertov's instructions = acknowledging & highlighting the majestically flowing because it is okay.

All I'm saying is all "nonspecialty" presentations should follow the director's instructions, not Tommassos. Or HerrSchrecks. Not our film.

The majestically flowing or dreamlike or poetic success-disposition of these attempts is not the conversation I am trying to have here.

HerrSchreck wrote:

Their music ... makes it more dreamlike, more 'poetic', more majestically flowing

for you. The factualist talk arising from your Tommasso-exclusive taste is, well, nice-- but still Tomasso-taste

It's quite obvious that it is my taste (although probably not exclusive) that is expressed in such statements. I should have thought that this goes for anyone who describes his or her subjective impressions rather than attempting a strict ( I hesitate to write 'objective', because there is no such thing) analysis of the film. So I can't see the problem here, really. If you don't think it's dreamlike, well, then don't.

HerrSchreck wrote: I wouldn't usually get this deep into the rarified logic of a superidiosycratic argument, but you seem to be creating the following equation:

1) Following Vertov's instructions = blocking majestically flowing aspects/denying the dreamlike/poetic because it is not okay,

whereby therefore

2) ignoring vertov's instructions = acknowledging & highlighting the majestically flowing because it is okay.

I did not say nor mean anything like this. I only plead for multiplicity. "The Man with a movie camera" is a well known film, and seeing it again and again why should we as viewers always stick with ONE possible musical interpretation? If there was a fully worked-out original score, fine. But as far as I understand it, there are just instructions by Vertov which could be interpreted in different ways, and there is nothing like a definite 'truth'. All music highlights certain aspects and reduces other aspects. So in order to draw your attention to specific qualities (which I tried to describe as 'dreamlike' etc.), why not put the film on with that particular soundtrack? If you want to have a closer look at other aspects (movement, editing or others), the Alloy would work better probably. Or Nyman's or anyone elses.

HerrSchreck wrote: All I'm saying is all "nonspecialty" presentations should follow the director's instructions, not Tommassos. Or HerrSchrecks. Not our film.

But it is precisely the medium DVD that is a 'specialty' presentation. Would you really argue against the existence of the commentary track simply because it was not intended by Vertov to have somebody narrating all the time while the film is playing? And the BFI DVD gives you at least the option to choose.

Dude we had a really nice back & forth the first time you came on this board. We talked about German films & stuff. Now you're creating nonexistent positions on my behalf to lift your own and you're doing it in every post. It drives me nuts chatting with folks like this so this will be my last answer to your posts, at least on this subject.

You've just said,

Tommaso wrote: .. analysis of the film. So I can't see the problem here, really. If you don't think it's dreamlike, well, then don't..

When in gods name did I say the film wasn't dreamlike?

Tommaso wrote:I did not say nor mean anything like this. I only plead for multiplicity. "The Man with a movie camera" is a well known film, and seeing it again and again why should we as viewers always stick with ONE possible musical interpretation? If there was a fully worked-out original score, fine. But as far as I understand it, there are just instructions by Vertov which could be interpreted in different ways,..

You're a very intelligent dude-- you rock english and it's not even you're native language-- that kicks my ass without a doubt. So how could you have not understood it when I wrote just above,

I'd say it's safe to say any set of open ended instructions could be interpreted any number of ways. Did you come on asking "How do you feel about Alloy's interpretation?," to which my answer would be-- "Ho hum example of silent score wasteland-ness? There have no doubt been as many interpretations of Vertov's instructions as there have been Interpretations Of Vertov's Instructions. I never argued for one interpretation. Why suggest I did? I just feel that silent film director's scores & musical notes get shat upon regularly, composers have a feild day tearing up directors careful instructions and scores, which they wouldn't dare do in talkies... and if anything the music is even more critical in a silent film.

Tommaso wrote: But it is precisely the medium DVD that is a 'specialty' presentation. Would you really argue against the existence of the commentary track simply because it was not intended by Vertov to have somebody narrating all the time while the film is playing? And the BFI DVD gives you at least the option to choose.

Tom I have no idea what you mean. For many folks around the world with no arthouse cinema down the block playing 1929 Soviet silents, DVD's are their primary source of films. Thus "authorized" editions, etc; this is introductory, primary presentation for many. I don't even know why you think I want to "ban" stuff like Nyman-- I just hate seeing it being passed off to folks as their first introduction to the film. They should experience the directors film the way the director wanted it first. They probably will not buy another dvd. So Vertov should get first dibs on their minds.

And why in god's name would I argue against a commentary track? It's not the score! I'll tell you this-- if it was presented as the only "score" for the film, where I couldn't turn the fucking thing off I'd go fucking banana-boat-botzo-bonkers demanding my fucking money back!!

HerrSchreck wrote:Dude we had a really nice back & forth the first time you came on this board. We talked about German films & stuff. Now you're creating nonexistent positions on my behalf to lift your own and you're doing it in every post.

Exactly, so I can't understood why you feel the need to be rude just because either we disagree or we simply misunderstand each other. And sorry, the point about creating nonexistent positions and so on for me describes exactly how I feel when reading some of your replies.

HerrSchreck wrote: I never argued for one interpretation. Why suggest I did?

I may have misunderstood you there but the harsh words with which you criticized some of the versions discussed here (e.g. "silent score wasteland-ness", although admittedly you seem to like it better than K-Tel or the Pet Shop Boys, as you write) simply gave me the impression that you certainly knew precisely how it would have to sound. I felt there was a certain disregard for the effort that Alloy, ITN, or Nyman would certainly have taken in thinking about how to best put the film to music.

HerrSchreck wrote: I just feel that silent film director's scores & musical notes get shat upon regularly, composers have a feild day tearing up directors careful instructions and scores, which they wouldn't dare do in talkies... and if anything the music is even more critical in a silent film.

I couldn't agree more. And that is the reason why I appreciate the BFI version's possibility to switch between two different soundtracks in this case. We have the instructions, but not the score (no need for different soundtracks on, say, "Metropolis", as they have brought it out with the original score). Alloy claim they followed Vertov's instructions: as I have never seen his instructions, I simply must believe them. ITN claim they did not: if I as a viewer decide I like what they did, why shouldn't I put it on? I am aware that the result is not 'original', but in this case this also goes for the Alloy or any other version (to varying degrees, probably).

HerrSchreck wrote: I don't even know why you think I want to "ban" stuff like Nyman-- I just hate seeing it being passed off to folks as their first introduction to the film.They should experience the directors film the way the director wanted it first.

The idea of experiencing the film as the director wanted it first is something I wholeheartedly subscribe to (one of the reasons why I ranted against Kino's intertitle translations, for example), but in the case of "Movie Camera", this must simply remain conjecture as far as the music is concerned. But putting two different soundtracks on the DVD would perhaps make those viewers who see the film for the first time aware of this fact. From your previous posts, you seem to think that the Alloy version is indeed following the instructions. So, then we have the 'original' (or something close to it) on the DVD and the people watching the film for the first time will not be cheated.
Also, I never said that you wanted to 'ban' Nyman et al. How did you get that idea?!

HerrSchreck wrote:And why in god's name would I argue against a commentary track? It's not the score!

Well, in this case I was just trying to be a little ironic about what I felt was your overstressing of 'authenticity". No offence.

I like Nyman's score, but I like Nyman. I haven't heard Alloy's. But for the purest distillation of what Vertov was all about (bringing the viewer "face to face with 100% cinematography") I wholeheartedly recommend watching Man with a Movie Camera in complete silence. The images and the editing have a rhythm all their own which I suspect any score is going to disrupt (though the "disruption" may not be unpleasant).

Does anyone know where one might read these "notes" that Vertov left about music? I would also be curious to know when these notes were written. Is any of this information included on the Image release in some capacity? I don't recall reading anything like that in Kino Eye: The Writings of Dziga Vertov, and in fact after reading that book I got the distinct impression that he probably would have considered a musical score to be a sort of "acted" sound and therefore rejected it in favor of "documentary" sounds. On the other hand, since the film is largely about itself and contains in its opening sequence an orchestra performing along with the film the audience within the film is watching, which is the same film the real audience is watching, it could be argued that a musical score actually would be "documentary" sound.

For a while I was toying with the idea of compiling a "score" of my own from various other sources to accord with the rhythms as I've seen them when I've watched the film silently, but I've never had time to devote myself to such a project.

Kirkinson wrote: I wholeheartedly recommend watching Man with a Movie Camera in complete silence. The images and the editing have a rhythm all their own which I suspect any score is going to disrupt (though the "disruption" may not be unpleasant).

I actually tried that once, and was surprised how well it worked. Probably one of the very few silent films that do not necessarily need music to create an incessant flow and rhythm.

Kirkinson wrote:I got the distinct impression that he probably would have considered a musical score to be a sort of "acted" sound and therefore rejected it in favor of "documentary" sounds.

Though I'm not quite certain about what you mean by 'documentary' sounds (the noise of machines or the trams that you see on screen, and no 'other' music?), I just remembered that there is a score (from the early 90s) for the film by celebrated French avantgarde composer Pierre Henry, inventor of the so-called 'musique concrète', i.e. music that makes use exclusively of recorded 'found' sounds. It has not been released on DVD, but the CD sounds most interesting and clearly quite different from all other versions. Weird electronics with a strange lyrical quality nevertheless. Not illustrative, but perhaps enhancing the modernist aspects of the film. Would be great to see how it actually works with the images.

Finally, I have just found out more details on the forthcoming 'arte stummfilmedition' release. There will be three soundtracks: Michael Nyman (2002), Werner Cee (2005) and In The Nursery (1999). No word about the extras, yet, and no word about the origin of the print.

More info (in German):

http://www.absolutmedien.de/main.php?vi ... st_item=60