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pemmican wrote:My votes for the two best/ most important American films of 2007, by the way, are for Aaron Katz's QUIET CITY and Robinson Devor's ZOO. *These* are vital, important, breathing films, worthy of careful attention and thought...

maybe if ZOO was a good 30 minutes shorter. It would work better as a long short film (I mean there were multiple scenes that literally had nothing to do with the films subject that did nothing but distract me and make me think they were trying to pad this out to feature length).

pemmican wrote:I don't think there's even a thread for QUIET CITY, is there?

Of course not, though amateurish Ray Carney-bait is indeed the opposite of this movie.

domino harvey wrote:

pemmican wrote:I don't think there's even a thread for QUIET CITY, is there?

Of course not, though amateurish Ray Carney-bait is indeed the opposite of this movie.

But it's mumblecore... and its shot on terrible looking digital.

Cold Bishop wrote:

domino harvey wrote:

pemmican wrote:I don't think there's even a thread for QUIET CITY, is there?

Of course not, though amateurish Ray Carney-bait is indeed the opposite of this movie.

But it's mumblecore... and its shot on terrible looking digital.

There's nothing amateurish about that film - it's extremely sensitive, caringly crafted, and I thought the DV transcended the medium and looked quite lovely. That said, I liked DANCE PARTY USA more - it's less perfectly-formed , but much more ambitious and moving. Either of these films have more heart and more ambition, and say vastly more about human life, than THERE WILL BE BLOOD... Just because Ray Carney would agree doesn't mean it isn't true.

P.

pemmican wrote:There's nothing amateurish about that film - it's extremely sensitive, caringly crafted, and I thought the DV transcended the medium and looked quite lovely. That said, I liked DANCE PARTY USA more - it's less perfectly-formed , but much more ambitious and moving. Either of these films have more heart and more ambition, and say vastly more about human life, than THERE WILL BE BLOOD... Just because Ray Carney would agree doesn't mean it isn't true.

But its mumblecore, MUMBLECORE.

Right again, pemmican. Katz is the real deal. Swanberg is the one worthy of excoriation.

Meanwhile...

I don't think there's even a thread for QUIET CITY, is there?

It's in good company. There isn't one for Sokurov's Alexandra either.

Bishop: Your point is?

Cope: Thanks again...

P.

It's like Emo for film.

Emo for film, eh?

I disagree, but that's a very nice turn of phrase.

P.

pemmican wrote:There's nothing amateurish about that film

Perhaps I'm biased because I like actors, not people who are horribly awkward and unrehearsed on camera-- seemingly this would be the primary requirement for a film to be Carney-approved. Someone like Bujalski barely gets away with it in Mutual Appreciation, but Quiet City is no Mutual Appreciation. I don't vehemently hate the film and I know you're sort of mentioning it more out of a feeling of "rescue" for such a small film, but comparing it to TWBB is like saying "I don't really like this steak dinner, I'd much rather eat a piece of dry toast."

pemmican wrote:Oh, and by the way, I'm not trying to "rescue" a small film by praising Quiet City; it's a film of lasting importance, one of a very small handful of recent American films that I've seen that actually has value as art (other examples - Old Joy, Police Beat... I don't really know how I feel about Mutual Appreciation at the moment, but it seems far less serious/ important than Quiet City or Dance Party USA -- which is an even more significant work). These films don't need me to condescend to them with "rescue" attempts; they have my respect and win my delight as a viewer, and I'll happily watch them again and again, admiring their beauty and craft. I would feel that way even if millions of people were going to watch them. The sad fact is that American audiences are more impressed by shallow, tricked-up Oscar fodder like TWBB, No Country for Old Men, Paranoid Park, etc. -- films consciously crafted to impress critics, to be "arthouse blockbusters," while disguising the fact that they have precious little to say.

Yeah, Van Sant knows what Oscar voters like: two-minute-long hand-held super 8 slow-mo shots of skateboarders doing their routines.

Don't get me wrong - I also like Old Joy, Quiet City, and Police Beat, but the idea that the Coens and Anderson and Van Sant have crafted their films to be critical favorites as well as to disguise their 'precious little to say' is hilarious.

Jeff wrote:I have no issue with your dislike of any of these films, pemmican, only your choice to be condescending when expressing it.

Co-sign. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt til he brought in Old Joy as an example of a movie that had something to say. If ever there's a movie with nothing happening and everything needs to be filled in by the viewer, it's that one. The idea that a popular film that essentially does the same thing, TWBB, is less-impressive than the "lesser-known" film is ludicrous-- though worth noting that Old Joy was quite a critical-darling in its own right. Does this mean critics are smart again?!?

I stand by my initial observation: P is clearly "rescuing" smaller films and presenting an obvious, obnoxious bias against anything resembling a conventional film-- the worst kind of snobbery.

Cold Bishop wrote:But its mumblecore, MUMBLECORE.

This is just some inane term coined by even more inane bloggers or journalists. While I can't say that I ever see myself making a film anywhere close to the scope or budget of TWBB, or any of PTA's films for that matter (ok Sydney could be the exception to that), Bujalski, Devor, and Katz (Frank V. Ross slightly less so) represent a trinity of inspiration to DIY kids with a dream and a couple thousand dollars in their bank account.

I must say, the amount of Ray Carney jokes have gone up by like, 10% in the past day.

I haven't seen either of Katz's films but from what I've heard, they're not really pandering to Carney's taste. At least not as much as someone like David Ball...

Macintosh wrote:Bujalski, Devor, and Katz (Frank V. Ross slightly less so) represent a trinity of inspiration to DIY kids with a dream and a couple thousand dollars in their bank account.

I'm all for independence and inspiration, but I don't feel most of the DIY kids don't have anything interesting to say. Most mainstream filmmakers don't either, but I don't want to see to the relationships of shallow, immature, self-absorbed and inarticulate white bourgeois hipster kids treated like the biggest problems of the world. Yeah, I know, most kids are really immature, self-absorbed, and inarticulate and its the reality of these filmmakers, and there telling personal stories, and films should reflect modern life and yada yada yada, but do something to transcend the mundaneness of it all, and show me something truthful or meaningful or moving underneath it all. Don't engage in self-indulgent navel-gazing. I get enough of that from the self-absorbed kids in real life.

Ugggh... and don't throw Devor in that group. To me, he hasn't done anything truly resembling the above. And Bujalski has at least the good sense to shoot on 16mm, and unsuprisingly, he's also probably the best and most tolerable person in the movement, although far from a great filmmaker. And who needs Quiet City when you have All the Real Girls?

Now will someone split this into a new topic.

Cold Bishop wrote:Ugggh... and don't throw Devor in that group. To me, he hasn't done anything truly resembling the above. And Bujalski has at least the good sense to shoot on 16mm, and unsuprisingly, he's also probably the best and most tolerable person in the movement, although far from a great filmmaker. And who needs Quiet City when you have All the Real Girls?

Yeah, Devor's films have really nothing to do with 'mumblecore.'

portnoy wrote:

Cold Bishop wrote:Ugggh... and don't throw Devor in that group. To me, he hasn't done anything truly resembling the above. And Bujalski has at least the good sense to shoot on 16mm, and unsuprisingly, he's also probably the best and most tolerable person in the movement, although far from a great filmmaker. And who needs Quiet City when you have All the Real Girls?

Yeah, Devor's films have really nothing to do with 'mumblecore.'

Yeah, I didn't mean to lump him into the "mumblecore" group either. I just view him as one of the best up and coming American filmmakers working outside the studio system. Who needs All the Real Girls when you have Police Beat?

Mumblecore isn't even an actual movement or genre or whatever - it was just a term Bujalski jokingly created in an interview. Robinson Devor fits the mold of these filmmakers because he represents the "new wave" (so to speak) of independent low-budget filmmakers in the US. Stylistically, he is a bit more mature but he should still be mentioned, if only for geographic and economic purposes.

Didn't Amy Taubin declare mumblecore dead months ago? We should close the thread.

I'm a lot more excited to see what Devor has in store next than any of the mumblecore filmmakers, for what it's worth, although I like both of Bujalski's films a lot. To me it's starting to feel like too much of the same, however, if we don't see something different from Bujalski & co. in the future. Of course it's not their fault they're all being lumped together in this way, but it's hard to leave that aside sometimes.

chaddoli wrote:Didn't Amy Taubin declare mumblecore dead months ago? We should close the thread.

If only we could be so lucky...

sidehacker wrote:Mumblecore isn't even an actual movement or genre or whatever - it was just a term Bujalski jokingly created in an interview. Robinson Devor fits the mold of these filmmakers because he represents the "new wave" (so to speak) of independent low-budget filmmakers in the US. Stylistically, he is a bit more mature but he should still be mentioned, if only for geographic and economic purposes.

Police Beat and Zoo have budgets about 30 times that of the average mumblecore film, though.

portnoy wrote: Police Beat and Zoo have budgets about 30 times that of the average mumblecore film, though.

If you're at all serious you've got to scrape together some sort of budget though. Beyond a certain point the limitations become insurmountable, at least as far as narrative cinema is concerned.

From what I gather, Police Beat still cost a 1/30th of All The Real Girls. They were screening off a beta at festivals (despite shooting 35mm).

Anyone confused by the start of this should note that it began as part of the There Will Be Blood thread - various chunks of that thread have been cut and pasted into this one, while various posts I made there, including replies to things now said above, have been condensed into one long, semi-coherent one, and left there. (I didn't realize my writing would get fucked with on this forum, actually, and am somewhat irritated by all this; tho' it explains why some threads here begin in the middle of obviously ongoing discussions and why sometimes, when reading back through old threads, they suddenly become very hard to follow...).

Anyhow, to clear up some confusion, Devor has, obviously, no place on this list. I mentioned him as an American filmmaker making "small" art films worthy of praise, along with Aaron Katz, Kelly Reichardt, James Benning, and John Gianvito. None of that was intended as part of a discussion of "mumblecore," and of the filmmakers I mentioned, only Katz, I believe, gets any association with this, uh, genre or movement or label (I don't THINK Kelly Reichardt has been associated with it; Benning and Gianvito clearly have nothing to do with it). The inclusion of Devor anywhere on this thread is an artefact of how it was created and should be ignored.

P.

Benning is an experienced, prolific avant-garde master who would be better placed in the company of Brakhage and Snow.

Given the extreme praise for Old Joy I was surprised at how partially-achieved the film is. Oldham is very good but the other guy is just passable and the pregnant wife abominable. The camera work is very nice in places, bordering on amateurish in others. Some of the screenwriting is touching, other times clunky. A promising work but Reichardt has yet to fully grasp the reins of her craft. Not mumblecore, at least!