Blu-ray, in General

[davebert]

I let that one slide because I figured it was in reference to some HD release of Cukor's 1938 Holiday, but I now realize that was foolish. I too am curious, apart from the obvious allure promised by the megasized Times Square posters of an evilishly grinning trying-to-be-romantic Jack Black...

[justeleblanc]

I let that one slide because I figured it was in reference to some HD release of Cukor's 1938 Holiday, but I now realize that was foolish. I too am curious, apart from the obvious allure promised by the megasized Times Square posters of an evilishly grinning trying-to-be-romantic Jack Black...

The posters are nothing compared to his child-molester-like face in the actual film.

[Cinesimilitude]

The Holiday...This was the first blu-ray I wanted but couldn't have.

Pardon my asking, but why? Are you a Nancy Myers completist or something?

Because I liked it. It was quirky and cute, Black and law and Winslet are great and it had a nice ending. What Women Want was terrible, but this one was well worth the price of admission, and importing it on HD-DVD. Believe it or not, but I like much more than I let on here at the forum, and I'll watch anything once.

[Gregory]

Are any film/DVD sites maintaining an all-region listing of art house/independent/classical Hollywood films on either high-definition format? There is so much recent, mainstream stuff that I never want to plow through it all thoroughly enough to feel like I know of all the releases that might interest me (not that I even have the means to play them yet).

[Cinesimilitude]

There isn't much yet, so I could start a thread if you'd like, and categorize them all by genre and region and such.

I think it's time for an HD section now actually, so I'll make the list, and and we'll see what the mods think, whether it be a thread in general, or a sticky in a new section.

What I'll also do is take a look at blu-ray titles and popular sony/columbia films and see who distributed them in different regions, and make a list of possible films that could be released on HD-DVD in other places that would never see HD -DVD in R1.

[jon]

I read in a DVDTalk that the HD-DVD (and I would imagine the Blu-ray, also) of Sleepy Hollow was cropped "slightly" for the release from the original 1.85:1 to 16x9. Any validity?

Is there any such thing as a 2 disc BR or HD case/release? They cases don't seem like they could ever allow for a tray for a 2disc release. What does the future hold if extras start going HD as well? Just a bit curious as I wait for something to happen in the hi-def war...

[Cinesimilitude]

Paramounts MI3 HD and BD releases are 2 disc editions in the same size case, and both feature full HD extras. Also there are wider cases (such as the Smallville season on HD-DVD) for when companies need more space. The HD-DVD I got from japan is not in a small case, it's the same as any dvd nowadays, and the 2 discovery atlas dvds I got were in digipak's.

[Antoine Doinel]

MSNBC casts doubt on how much the porn industry will actually factor in the format war:

Hard Times for the Porn Industry?
The adult film industry is unlikely to be worth as much as it claims—and the Internet that made porn so pervasive is driving a sales slump.
WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Brian Braiker
Newsweek
Updated: 1:35 p.m. CT Feb 8, 2007
Feb. 07, 2007 - Contrary to the popular maxim, what happens in Vegas doesn't always stay there. Like the two big stories that emerged from the Adult Entertainment Expo in Sin City last month: 1) the adult film industry is large enough to potentially be the deciding factor in the battle for format dominance between Blu-ray and High Definition (HD)-DVD, and 2) the adult film industry may be in its worst sales slump in recent memory. Taken together, the two just don't add up.

The reason may well lie in the lack of confirmable information about the porn industry's true size. These numbers—specifically that the sales and rental of pornographic videos and DVDs are a $3.6 billion industry—have been repeated so often in industry and mainstream news outlets that they have acquired the patina of fact. Throw in cable and satellite television, the Internet, magazines, strip clubs and novelties, and the oft-bandied estimate balloons to nearly $13 billion.

In January Fox News took those numbers at face value, citing Adult Video News trade magazine as its source.

But observers both inside and outside the industry have increasingly been calling that figure into serious question. "It's bogus," says Luke Ford, a lone-wolf industry gossip columnist, former investigative journalist and failed pornographer. "AVN is exaggerating by sevenfold on DVD sales and rentals." Steven Hirsch, cofounder of Vivid Entertainment, one of the world's largest adult film studios, with an estimated annual revenue stream of $100 million, concedes, telling NEWSWEEK that "I think that's a justifiable position to take."

AVN Publisher Paul Fishbein has heard all of this before. He cites the familiar truism that the vast majority of companies that produce pornographic content are privately held—and have little incentive to accurately report their earnings. Luke Ford and Vivid's Hirsch assert that it's probably impossible to put an exact number on the industry. But every year AVN tries. "Everybody lies about their numbers," Fishbein tells NEWSWEEK. "Almost every year I want to abandon our survey [of the industry]. It's a lot of work for an estimate." Among the sources cited in the latest AVN survey are “internal research

Well, whatever the truth about the impact of the porn industry HD-DVD and BluRay execs are courting XXX studios:

Porn studios quietly courted
It's all hush-hush as backers of HD DVD and Blu-ray formats vie for the industry's attention.

By Joseph Menn and Dawn C. Chmielewski, Times Staff Writers

As the opposing camps pushing the next generation of DVDs try to win audiences, they are furtively pursuing the affections of the multibillion-dollar porn industry.

Since the advent of home video, adult entertainment has played a key role in the adoption of new consumer technology. Porn companies, for instance, helped VHS trump Betamax in the '70s. More recently, they began streaming online video long before television networks.

So backers of the rival — and incompatible — HD DVD and Blu-ray formats are trying to entice porn producers to adopt their respective technologies. Even if they're not proud of it.

Last summer, a group pitching Blu-ray visited the Canoga Park offices of Wicked Pictures, whose films include "As Sleazy as 1-2-3" and "Womb Raiders." Wicked executive Jackie Ramos said the Blu-ray proponents spent hours explaining how the movie studio could benefit from releasing Blu-ray DVDs, which deliver dramatically higher picture quality than conventional discs.

But what amused Ramos was the warning that came after the presentation — "They said, 'We can help you, but remember: We were never here.' "

Versions of that message keep popping up as the backers of Blu-ray and HD DVD court the porn industry. Giants with a stake in the outcome include the likes of Microsoft Corp., Toshiba and Sony Corp.

The lengths to which they are going — and won't go — provide one way to measure the progress of the fiercest format war since VHS versus Betamax.

The porn industry has helped the HD DVD camp stay in the game despite support for Blu-ray from big electronics companies and Hollywood.

The battle is still young. Demand for the next-generation DVDs won't really take off until more people own televisions that can take advantage of the superior picture quality. And this month's introduction of an LG Electronics player that can handle either type of next-generation DVD — along with Warner Home Video's unveiling of a new hybrid "Total Hi Def" disc that holds both formats — suggests that the fight could last far longer than first predicted.

HD DVD, whose backers include Microsoft, Toshiba and General Electric Co.'s Universal Pictures, was out of the gate first. But since December, when Sony's PlayStation 3 and other devices that play Blu-ray movies began shipping in volume, Blu-ray disc sales have taken the lead.

Blu-ray has every major Hollywood studio except Universal (some are issuing in both formats). And with 710,000 PlayStation 3s and dedicated players sold through the end of the year, Blu-ray now has about four times as many homes to play in as HD DVD does.

But it is still too early to write off HD DVD, especially with inexpensive players due later this year from Chinese manufacturers, said Tom Adams, president of Adams Media Research. "HD is going to beat Blu-ray to $300 and $200 — all the prices that start unlocking all the segments of population that will buy," he said.

With the race this close, it stands to reason that both sides are paying close attention to the porn kings of the San Fernando Valley. By some estimates, adult titles make up 10% or more of the $24-billion annual market in traditional DVDs.

Plus, anyone wondering who would most appreciate pictures that appear crisper than real life had only to witness a briefing at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas last month by LG Electronics, maker of the expensive players for either format. None of the presenter's points gripped the audience like the slow-motion HD DVD video of a model emerging from a swimming pool, every drop glistening as it fell from her white bikini.

Most U.S. porn producers are getting their feet wet with HD DVD.

During those hushed meetings with the producers, HD DVD and Blu-ray promoters insisted on secrecy as they touted the features of their respective formats. Each was sensitive to concerns specific to adult entertainment, such as how to edit out the surgical scars that would otherwise be far too visible.

But the HD DVD side went further, providing training and unofficially connecting the studios with the factories known as replicators, which stamp out discs from a master copy.

The porn industry is having trouble finding replicators to press Blu-ray DVDs.

HD DVD production methods are built on the old DVD standards, so the older machinery can be retooled to make the next-generation discs. But Blu-ray requires expensive new equipment. That's why there are only eight or so Blu-ray replicators in the world.

For Vivid Entertainment Group, the physical production of Blu-ray discs will come to about 35% of those movies' budgets, compared with 15% for HD DVDs and 10% for a standard DVD, said Vivid Chief Executive Steve Hirsch.

Even if a porn studio wants to pay extra for Blu-ray, Sony and Walt Disney Co. make it hard.

Sony manufactures Blu-ray discs but won't do it for adult titles. And Disney requires the replicators it uses to pledge not to use the same machines and employees to publish porn. Disney has its reasons: In the past, porn snippets have accidentally shown up on Disney titles. Neither company would comment for the record about porn.

Since Disney uses most of the biggest U.S. Blu-ray replicators, L.A.-based Vivid, the only adult producer to promise some Blu-ray discs, has been forced to range far afield.

"The Blu-ray people are making it very difficult for the adult guys," Hirsch said.

On the other hand, that may just be because they can afford to be difficult.

If HD DVD mounts a serious comeback, executives at two mainstream Blu-ray studios said, Sony and Disney will consider giving the porn makers a little more quiet help.

[jon]

I read something interesting about the different codecs. Apparently the VC-1 Codec on the HD-DVD has a more organic quality to it, a more film-like appearance. The Mpeg2 codec is more digital or something. I don't know, but apparently the different codecs all look different and unique. I would love to see some DVDbeaver reviews of HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray...though I guess the hardware isn't really available to do it (at a decent price).

[Napoleon]

HD/Blue ray copy protection cracked?

Those ##### in Sweden will be dancing in their basements.

[The Invunche]

Did the turtle catch the hare?

In other high-def news, we've got the first reports on actual unit software sales numbers, though the numbers come from Sony Computer Entertainment America (which has an obvious bias). Next Generation magazine has reported Sony's claim that 439,000 Blu-ray movie discs have sold in the U.S., while 438,000 HD-DVDs have sold. We believe these numbers are format to date. It will be interesting to see if any third party tracking companies release unit sales numbers to confirm Sony's claims. Still, they don't seem out of line with the data we've seen from Nielsen VideoScan recently.

Digitalbits predicting blu-ray the winner of the format war:

Meanwhile, Newsweek magazine has posted an interesting story recently that has relevance to the HD format war. The piece indicates that the adult film industry is in the middle of its worst software sales slump in years, in part impacted by the sheer volume of free adult content available online. That would stand in sharp contrast to the notion that the adult industry is powerful enough to influence the HD-DVD/Blu-ray format war. In fact, despite the free content that's already online, industry analysts see the most profitable part of the porn market moving from DVD directly to the Internet... bypassing HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc entirely. Several adult producers have told us here at The Bits that the ultimate goal is to deliver high-definition adult content directly to computers and DVRs via broadband, without any physical media involved.

Here's yet another major HD story, and it's breaking news: A hacker or hackers on the Doom9 forums are reporting that they've actually managed to discover the so-called "processing key" that allows them to circumvent the AACS DRM protection on ALL HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc software. Naturally, the AACS Licensing Administrator is "investigating the claims." This could end up being a MAJOR story, so we'll watch how it develops. Reminds me of a classic Scotty quote from one of the Trek films: "The more they over think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." You can read more here at InfoWorld and here at engadget.

Finally today, I'm tickled to learn that I'm not the only media analyst that's earned the ire of a select group of... shall we say, passionate?... early adopters on the Net. CNet executive editor David Carnoy has apparently been flamed too by HD-DVD enthusiasts online for daring to suggest that HD-DVD may not have a rosy future. You can read his amusing editorial reaction here.

You know, the funny thing about all this is that I really like both HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc just as video formats. They both deliver fantastic quality and features. But technically and quality-wise, this format war is basically a wash. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that if this battle is going to be decided by anything, it will be other factors. Like which studios support each format, which manufacturers support each format, what the software and hardware sales trends are, etc. And in each of those areas, Blu-ray has developed a clear edge.

Let's look at these simple facts: Of the 12 major and mini-major Hollywood studios (Fox, Disney, MGM, Sony, Lionsgate, Paramount, New Line, HBO, Warner Bros, Universal, DreamWorks and The Weinstein Company) 9 support Blu-ray, 5 of them exclusively. Only 6 support HD-DVD, just 2 of them exclusively (one studio, DreamWorks, remains uncommitted). Not counting computer hardware or budget brands, Blu-ray Disc has 9 major set-top hardware manufacturers behind it (Sony, Pioneer, Samsung, Philips, Panasonic, LG, Mitsubishi, Thomson, Sharp), while HD-DVD boasts just two (Toshiba and now LG). HD-DVD is an add-on to Microsoft's Xbox 360, while Blu-ray is built into EVERY Sony PlayStation 3. Nielsen VideoScan is reporting that in software sales, Blu-ray has virtually erased the sales lead enjoyed by HD-DVD since the formats were launched, and is now outselling HD-DVD by a 2 to 1 (and growing) margin.

I can understand that some people just love HD-DVD and have had great experiences with it. We have too. I understand that some people hate Sony for perceived corporate arrogance. I'm not a big fan of their tactics either, particularly how they went around the DVD Forum to develop their format. But let's face it - the biggest corporate cheerleader for HD-DVD seems to be Microsoft, which isn't exactly comforting either. All of those issues aside, however, how do you argue with the facts that are clearly becoming obvious - namely, ALL those things I just mentioned above? Frankly, the best sales pitch the HD-DVD camp seems to be able to make right now is: "Hey, we've got DVD right in the name! Plus cheap off-brand players are on the way! And porn!" I guess I have to be the guy who states the obvious, but doesn't that seem a little odd to anyone?

The cheap players thing is worth addressing here. The reality is, price sensitivity isn't an issue in the first year or so of any new format. It's mostly just the early adopters who are interested at that point anyway. By the time a wider consumer base is starting to get interested, 2nd and 3rd generation players have entered the market and they're inevitably cheaper. What surprised me most at CES is just how aggressively the HD-DVD camp seems to be trying to drive their format's hardware prices as low as possible by bringing off-brand Asian manufactures into their fold. The arrival of ultra-cheap $100 and $50 players in the DVD industry is what spelled the end of DVD hardware profitability for the major CE manufacturers. So why INVITE this situation before your format is even a year old? It makes no business sense that I can see, unless it's a desperation play - a last ditch effort not to lose.

I've also heard people cite universal players as the answer to having two formats. But the problem with universal players is that while they make life easier for early adopters, they do nothing to clear up the mass consumer (or mainstream media) perception of a format war, so those folks still remain on the sidelines. In addition to that, universal players tend to cost more, which again doesn't affect early adopters that much but is one more strike against adoption by consumers at large, who are price sensitive.

As for porn... I've addressed that issue in the past, and you saw the Newsweek story posted above. Unlike the situation back in the days of VHS versus Betamax, cheap porn is already available everywhere on DVD and online. Porn is not going to decide this format war.

As I've said before, I like both HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc. They're both great - they both deliver the goods. But there just isn't room for TWO great formats. And at this point, I just don't see any likely circumstance in which HD-DVD can evolve into a viable mass market consumer video format. I certainly can't recommend in good conscience that Bits readers commit to HD-DVD right now. I tell most readers who ask me about the format war to just stick with DVD, and wait until it's all over. But if they're prepared to risk their money now, and are eager to do so, I have to tell them that Blu-ray is the better bet.

Frankly, I wish this format war had never happened. I am SO sick and tired of endlessly debating the merits of one of these formats versus the other. I'm tired of talking to reps for studios that are sitting on the fence or straddling both formats, who gamely spout the diplomatic company line about how great both formats are on the record, but off the record tell you how sick they all are of the situation and how much more hassle and headache it's caused them having to support THREE formats (including standard DVD). And I'm tired of watching early adopters backbiting each other at every turn. I'd rather just be talking about all the great films being released on disc in high-definition. I truly don't care which format wins, as long as one wins. But as long as there are two competing formats, we ALL lose. Period. The home video industry is not like videogaming. People do not have the patience for two or even three separate formats. They want to go to the store, buy a disc and know that it's going to work when they get home. It's that simple. They don't want to have to worry about having to buy the red box, or the blue box... or even the red AND blue box.

I'd hate for the high-definition video format war to have the same outcome as the high-resolution audio format war did. DVD-Audio versus SACD ended in a stalemate, and most people just stuck with CDs or moved to MP3 downloads. But mark my words, if the HD-DVD/Blu-ray war lingers on, that's exactly where we're headed. All you enthusiasts that have trenched in to support your particular format of choice come hell or high water had better enjoy the movies you're getting now, because if both formats fizzle out, forget about ever getting deep catalog, or older classics that cost money to restore for HD - money that would have come from software sales that aren't happening because too many people stubbornly stuck to their guns and the format war dragged out until nobody cared anymore. I think Stephen Colbert said it best when predicting the future of the HD format war: "The winner will be the one you DON'T buy." There could be a lot more "truthiness" in that statement than some want to believe.

For the good of the video industry as a whole, and for the benefit of film fans everywhere, this format war needs to end and SOON. So how long do we all have to wait before we start acknowledging the elephant in the room: One of these formats is already winning... and, for better or worse, it isn't HD-DVD.

Emotional response from HD DVD fans:

Well... as expected, I've received a flood of e-mails over the last day or so in response to my high-def format war comments of yesterday. And as expected, those who have firmly attached themselves to HD-DVD weren't terribly pleased with my arguments. The interesting thing, however, is that none of these people could logically refute my reasoning, and very few even attempted to do so. In fact, while some of the responses from HD-DVD supporters were polite and thoughtful, most were defensive, overly emotional or even downright hostile. A couple e-mails were so nasty that I can only wonder at the mental stability of their authors. All of this suggests to me that even these people are starting to suspect that the writing is on the wall for HD-DVD.

I was pleasantly surprised, however, at how many readers responded to say that they generally agreed with my assessment of the situation. And it wasn't just Blu-ray supporters who reacted positively. A surprising number of retailers and industry insiders expressed relief that we had finally said what they WANTED to say, but weren't in a position to do so. I was also struck by how many people that agreed with my comments said they hadn't yet adopted either format, instead having decided to remain neutral until a choice was more clear. But many of those folks told us that they were now close to jumping into the high-def arena, and Blu-ray was where they were headed. The responses as a whole were certainly fascinating, and they have done nothing but convince me further that this format war needs to end now, before the early adopter market gets even more fractious and divisive.

How to end the format war:

So what, or who, could end this format war? Simple: Universal. If Universal were to suddenly announce support for Blu-ray Disc in addition to HD-DVD, or if they were to adopt Warner's TotalHD combo disc, that would be the end of it. You would suddenly have every major studio in town releasing Blu-ray titles (except for DreamWorks, and our sources tell us that the studio is simply waiting for one of these formats to start selling serious numbers before getting involved). By the end of the year, cheaper second generation Blu-ray hardware will available, and that's the ballgame. That's not to say that Microsoft and Toshiba would stop pushing HD-DVD anytime soon. And I'm sure some of the HD-DVD supporting studios would continue releasing titles, at least for a while. But why would any average consumer want to buy an HD-DVD player, even a very cheap one, when you can't get Disney movies, you can't get Pixar films, you can't get the Bond films, you can't get the Spider-Man films, etc, etc, etc. Universal has the power to end this format war tomorrow.

[Cinesimilitude]

Yeah, I'm also unphased. Blu-Ray can have region 1 for all I care, other countries will cater to my tastes far better. If criterion goes blu-ray, I will most certainly be buying a cheap blu-ray player, but otherwise I'm happy.

[Antoine Doinel]

The only reason retailers are all excited that Bill Hunt wants "the format war" to end and is predicting the winner to be Blu Ray is purely financial. Retailers could frankly give a shit about quality, selection so much as they can push a clear "winner" to the doe-eyed consumer ready to unload too much money, far too early on a player.

HD and Blu Ray couldn't be arriving at a worse time because right now their biggest competition are devices like the Apple TV which will make any physical format obsolete quicker than DVD made VHS. Once broadband arrives in such a capacity that downloading a film (with extras) takes about 10 minutes, and then can be sent via wifi to your digital box to watch on your now affordable huge, widescreen plasma TV no one will be buying discs anymore. And if the "format war" ended tomorrow and Blu Ray won, DVDs will still be around for at least the next 5-7 years. Right now this is a war for those who can afford it. To 95% of the population, they either don't know, don't care or are waiting to see what happens before investing in anything.

For the future of film releases - that ends when its affordability is viable for the average Joe - the race is between HD, Blu Ray and digital distribution. And that will not end anytime soon.

[marty]

For the future of film releases - that ends when its affordability is viable for the average Joe - the race is between HD, Blu Ray and digital distribution. And that will not end anytime soon.

Totally agree! I have been saying it for a long time now that blu-ray and HD format war will be futile soon with increasing broadband and digital distribution. However, the discs will soon be used as drink coasters.

[davebert]

I'm not sure obsessive types will give up the joys of collectible physical packaging anytime soon. Although I would certainly welcome the freeing of bookshelf space.

[jon]

If BR does win the format war, I don't think I will be investing in a player or any media any time soon after. There is just nothing promising coming to the format, the quality is inferior to HD, and the region encoding on the format is ridiculous.

I personally love packaging and hard copies. It would be a sad day if I never got the chance to buy Criterion dvds with beautiful packaging ever again.

I can see renting films going the way of digital distribution, but I can't see home video libraries going that route.

I doubt digitally distributed films will be downloaded and transmitted wirelessly to the television. More likely, I would imagine it will become something more like Xbox live marketplace or something. Like a comcast rental section, just plugged into the wall or using wifi to connect to a home network. That is the future of renting imo.

Just a quick question though, how would digital distribution of full titles work? say 30gb+ of a title (with extras) being saved on a hard drive somewhere. It would have to be like an account that accesses a server with titles that can be downloaded or streamed to the box. Waiting for a download or dealing with stream hiccups would get old instantly. Network problems and you cant watch movies. There are just too many problems inherent with the idea. Space, quality, connection, loss of password/hard drive code(if movies arent saved to a specific account, and instead saved as cookies on a certain hard drive). What happens if you want to watch a movie at a friend's house. The list can go on.

Anyways, downloading for rental is the way of the future, but downloading for ownership will be a migraine.

[Anthony]

If BR does win the format war, I don't think I will be investing in a player or any media any time soon after. There is just nothing promising coming to the format, the quality is inferior to HD, and the region encoding on the format is ridiculous.

I don't know where some people get their info from, but BR and HD-DVD can use the same encoding specs (both can use MPEG-2, AVC, and VC-1). The first BR disc used the MPEG-2 codec but the current BR discs have all used the VC-1 codec (a much better codec than MPEG-2). So there is no difference between the picture quality of a HD-DVD or a BR disc now.

I hope and pray BR wins cause the disc can handle more info (up to 50GB for a double disc).

[jon]

I don't know where some people get their info from, but BR and HD-DVD can use the same encoding specs (both can use MPEG-2, AVC, and VC-1). The first BR disc used the MPEG-2 codec but the current BR discs have all used the VC-1 codec (a much better codec than MPEG-2). So there is no difference between the picture quality of a HD-DVD or a BR disc now.

I hope and pray BR wins cause the disc can handle more info (up to 50GB for a double disc).

Do yourself and us a favor and go back to read the rest of this thread.

Then try to come on and troll.

Hey, thanks.


But yah, I am almost certain BR hasn't had any VC-1 discs yet, though there is a rumor WB is going to put some out. While it is true that BR and HD have the same capabilities, the problem is that BR are pissing all over the consumers while HD seem to be catering to them/us. Every review I have read based on HD vs. BR content for the same movie has HD coming out ahead. I will gladly take a more forward thinking, consumer first, higher quality, region free format any day over 10 gb more storage per layer.

Edit: just checked, and apparently WB used VC-1 for the Blu-ray release of The Departed. Still, this isn't a standard practice for the format and from what I understand, only WB is putting out VC-1 BR discs (so far).

Also, the quality control for Blu-ray is awful. This review says that the standard DVD looked better than the BR. http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/kissofthedragon.html

Then again, some of the newer releases have been using Mpeg4.

[The Invunche]

Jesus Christ, what kind of response to Anthony was that? As far as I can read on the net all af the new Blu-ray releases are indeed not MPEG2.

In fact, while some of the responses from HD-DVD supporters were polite and thoughtful, most were defensive, overly emotional or even downright hostile.

I think Bill Hunt experiences are quite similar to whats going on in this thread.

[The Invunche]

I think "invested" is the keyword here.

[Darth Lavender]

Ordinarily I wouldn't repeat myself, but this is a long thread and people can't be expected to read (and remember) every post.

So, now the subject of MPEG vs VC1 encoding has come up again; one thing which nobody seems to realise is that if BluRay wins, even if they eventually start using VC1, there's still going to be a lot of movies available only in mediocre MPEG encoding for a very long time.
Just look at DVD for an example; two of my favourite movies (well, someone in my personal Top 200 list) are Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Dark City. Frankenstein is full of MPEG artefacts that would likely never appear on a more DVD, but it's still the only version available. Compare to Dark City, produced by New Line which was basically making very high-quality DVDs from the beginning, and it's still a great looking image (maybe just a tad soft, but more than acceptable even now.)

How long would it take for remastered versions of Sleepy Hollow or From Hell, or even Kingdom of Heaven if Bluray wins?

As to the extra-gigabytes, the extent of my not-caring is such that it can only be expressed by the most complex mathematics. The kind we use when describing black-holes and the vastness of space.
Is there really anyone here who wants to be able to watch more than three-hours without an intermission? For that matter, are there any movies out there which are too long to fit on HD-disks without an incovenient break?

[exte]

I formally give up on this thread! It is of course meaningless that only Porquenegar and I are the only two people on the board who have actually invested in this technology, and that every single argument, detail or conflict involved in the technology, the players, the titles, the politics and the so called format war have been exhaustively canvassed by us, and contributing posters whove been interested in this for the last six months or so. But hey - fuck them!

Thank the lord these imbeciles arent talking about anything serious like films, which actually requires some thought and research. Like really serious dudes, like - uh - reading back over - uhh - a few pages.

I never got a response to this article I posted about...

Guide to 120Hz HDTVs: Which Sets Have That Magic Number?

[The Invunche]

A statistical comparison of over 300 HD DVD and Blu-ray reviews

[ellipsis7]

Yes, both HDDVD and Blu-Ray have had their codes cracked!...

Hollywood faces up to DRM flop

The system designed to protect next-generation DVDs from pirates has been cracked - and even the hackers are surprised at how easy it was, says Bobbie Johnson

Thursday February 22, 2007
The Guardian

This weekend, studio executives from Hollywood will be all smiles as they congratulate each other on their successes at the annual Oscars ceremony. But behind the grins, champagne and glamorous gowns, they are contemplating the biggest blockbuster flop in history. This time it's not a movie, but studio technology that hasn't lived up to its billing. The systems intended to lock pirates out of the new generation of high-definition DVDs have been cracked.

Both of the next-generation DVD formats - Sony's Blu-ray and Toshiba's HD DVD - use a protection mechanism called the Advanced Access Content System (AACS), a hugely complex and expensive beast aimed at rendering unauthorised copies useless.
But what took countless dollars and years of work to create was undone in just a few weeks by a hacker who in effect unlocked every single Blu-ray and HD DVD disc now in circulation.

Process circumvented

"The developers spent billions, the hackers spent pennies," said Cory Doctorow, an opponent of digital rights management (DRM) who blogs at BoingBoing.net. "For DRM to work it has to be airtight - there can't be a single mistake. It's like a balloon that pops with the first prick."

The hacker, "Arnezami", posted a blow-by-blow account of the process on the Doom9 website, a famous haunt for crackers and pirates. It wasn't even a particularly complex attack; the only weapons used were an Xbox 360, a computer and a copy of King Kong. And instead of deciphering the complex cryptography that protects every high-definition movie, the hackers circumvented the entire process by discovering one of the crucial keys that unlocks the encrypted information.

Watching the protection unravel was like watching a cat playing with a ball of string - and even those doing the work could hardly believe such luck.

"Wow, I think I did it," Arnezami wrote. "It's pretty incredible that a carefully thought-of encryption system is now reduced to, at worst, a guessing game. Somebody should feel very ashamed."

Over the years, the Hollywood machine has become as famous for its flops as its successes. Where films like Jaws once ruled the cinemas all summer, modern blockbusters are built for impact - lavish multimillion-dollar productions that spend a week on top of the box office charts before fading into history.

The same seems to be true of DRM systems, which are costing more and more to develop despite being broken with increasing speed. In the late 1990s it took a Norwegian teenager, Jon Lech Johansen, months to crack DVD's DeCSS protection. These days that must seem like a luxury.

"Blu-ray is incredibly well-designed," says Bruce Schneier, the chief technology officer of BT Counterpane and a respected security expert. "If they're smart, they'll have been expecting this, and if they're lucky they'll be able to fix it - not with the DVDs that are already out there, but with ones coming in the future."

At first some doubted Arnezami's claims, but it quickly became apparent that the processing key was able to unlock almost anything that came its way. Within days the system's creators, the AACS licensing authority, responded.

"AACS has confirmed that an additional key has been published on public websites without authorisation. This is a variation of the previously reported attack on one or more players sold by AACS licensees," said a statement. "Although a different key was extracted, this represents no adverse impact on the ability of the AACS ecosystem to address the attack. All technical and legal measures applicable to the previously reported attack will be applicable against this attack as well."

The language is measured, but reading between the lines reveals otherwise. Arnezami's revelation is treated dismissively, but is not refuted; in fact, it is only the "AACS ecosystem" that has survived.

In other words, producers will be able to change the keys on forthcoming products to try to prevent this crack from being successful in the future. The effects have already rippled through the industry. Fox, one of the major backers of Blu-ray, has delayed a raft of high definition movies it was preparing to release, presumably to recode them and tighten up procedures.

In the meantime, customers are left waiting empty-handed while Hollywood carries on spending money on a system that failed to do its job properly.

Impossible problem

Even the assumption that AACS has a backup plan to beat this particular crack is debatable, because nobody can be sure what measures are being taken. The AACS licensing authority was invited to take part in this article, but refused.

Campaigners continue to argue about the rights and wrongs of digital rights mechanisms - but what good is any protection system if it fails?

Meanwhile, as the studios look to restrict their official products even further, the Swedish anti-copyright group The Pirate Bay - identified by the US-based International Intellectual Property Alliance as one of the most dangerous groups in the world - is distributing BitTorrent versions of Oscar-nominated movies with impunity at oscartorrents.org.

"The movie industry learned from the music industry's lesson - that you should never offer too perfect a product, so that you can sell your customers an improved version later," says John Buckman, whose online record label, Magnatune, does not use protection systems. "The appeal of BitTorrent files is not only that they're free - they are a better product than you can buy at any price." And free, too, of DRM.

In the end, say experts, vested interests are at play, and a whole industry of companies and experts is profiting from the false promise of a silver bullet for piracy.

"It is an impossible problem, like making water not wet," says Schneier. "These systems are supposed to be able to recover from breaks, but the cracks are going to get better. It's a never-ending arms race."

How the hackers did it

Both Arnezami and another hacker, Muslix64, who managed a similar attack, realised that it is easier to bypass the protection system than try to decode it. A high definition DVD includes a number of software 'keys' to decrypt the content; there's also one built into the player. One of the keys identifies the movie. By watching the information streaming from the DVD itself, Arnezami was able to pick up one of those codes - and realised that the "unique" identifiers were actually based on simple information such as the title of the movie. A couple of steps later, Arnezami was able to spot another more useful key, which helped circumvent the decryption process. Hackers are now building software that can exploit the hack and play any high-def disc in any computer - which in turn will open the door to free copying. Fixing the crack will be expensive and awkward for the movie studios: future pressings of DVDs will need to use different, unbroken keys, and it is likely they will have to randomise the codes on every future HD and Blu-ray DVD rather than use the same one for every copy of a movie.

[The Invunche]

DRM will never work no matter the complexity because the attacker is the same as the recipient. This is just further proof.