Seven Swords (Tsui Hark, 2005)

[Antoine Doinel]

Has anyone seen this? It seems it will (somewhat bizzarely) have a theatrical screening here soon even though the DVD is readily available. The only other Tsui Hark film I have seen (and loved) was Time & Tide. From the IMDB plot description it sounds like a loose remake of Seven Samurai with a bit of The Departed thrown in for good measure.

Thoughts?

[Travis]

It was one of those movies you forget while you're still in the theater.

And those kind of movies shouldn't be two and a half hours long.

[lord_clyde]

The trailer looks really cool, but all the reviews are pretty awful. For some good Tsui Hark fun, look no further than Peking Opera Blues!

[Antoine Doinel]

Cool. Thanks for the tips. I'll pass on this.

[fred]

I don't know why everyone is so down on this film. It's quite strong. No, it's not as good as Peking Opera Blues, but what is? See it on the big screen. It's thrilling.

[soma]

It's awful, and judging by your tastes Antoine (which we often share), you will hate it. Ridiculously long, boring after the first hour, incredibly derivative and worst of all, a terrible storyline that builds layer upon layer of cheese, contrivance and cliche. I saw it at a packed theatre for MIFF here mid last year and the crowd was laughing right the way through, at segments you were definitely not supposed to find humorous. Hark was in attendance and introduced the film, I almost felt sorry for him given he's done a few classic wuxia epics over the years - but this film was just trash. One of the worst, and I saw close to 50 at the Festival. Worse still that his introductory speel was along the lines of "a tribute / reimagining of Seven Samurai". The man needs to go back and watch some Kurosawa.

[fred]

worst of all, a terrible storyline

Well, if you're looking for a good story in a Tsui Hark film you're going about it all wrong. I don't think he's ever met a script which didn't bore him. His virtues lie elsewhere.

[Antoine Doinel]

Thanks for the elaboration Soma, it's much appreciated. I'm not sure what version will end up screening here, but from what I understand there are a least a few different cuts out there. Does the length make much of a difference?

[soma]

Imdb reads that the two cuts are 153min and 141min, there may be more out there but I'm not sure. I definitely saw the 153min cut, a real test of patience. As I said it was boring after the first hour - in fact the friends I was with insist it was boring after the first half hour. I held out because I really did want to like this. Hark had pumped it up so much before the screening; I was expecting some modern day Kurosawa-esque epic masterpiece, complete with savage, blow-your-mind action sequences. But even the action was lacking, or at least the ability to make the audience care about the action.

To be fair it starts strong, and ends almost spectacularly, but there is 2 hours of mindless dribble in between which is unengaging, incoherent in parts (even at that length it was obviously massacred in the editing room), lacks any real kind of flow, full of cheesy love sequences, corny dialogue, ridiculous set-ups, bad storytelling and base-level characterisation.

Well, if you're looking for a good story in a Tsui Hark film you're going about it all wrong. I don't think he's ever met a script which didn't bore him. His virtues lie elsewhere.

I think the exception to this rule would be the original Once Upon A Time In China series, which despite their genre trappings, have a strong sense of narrative and solid characterisation, and are my favourite of Hark's oeuvre. Even the corniness of these films seems to be carried tongue-in-cheek and the humour feels intended to be that way. They crackle with their own sense of rhythm, are constantly engaging and entertaining, and the Jet Li climactic fight sequences are still to this day, astounding.

The same could not be said of Seven Swords, one of the weakest films he has made so far - and I've seen most of them. As mentioned, storyline aside, even the action sequences are generally unspectacular. The choppy editing makes for a viscerally lacking experience, and whether you care to agree or not, you cannot separate story and character development from the action, as if they are two separate entities. Hark's sense of character development here and his inability to create even a semi-engaging storyline at that length is so poor that the audience is distanced from the action; like video game characters we care little the consequences of the battle sequences and have no emotional investment in the outcomes.

And for those who have seen it and know what I'm talking about, this summary doesn't even begin to talk about that boy and his horse! The scene went for 5 - 10 minutes, the boy sobbing his dead horse's name to the wind in the most melodramatic way possible. Even if there had have been half an hour of solid introductory sequences showing us how much this boy cares about his horse it still would have been overlong and completely over the top. But as it stands, it came out of nowhere - "Mooooooooon!" (repeat ad nauseum) - and the entire audience I was with, some 600 people, were in fits of laughter at the director's expense. It's possibly one of the corniest and most ridiculous scenes I've ever had the displeasure of seeing.

At the time I remember about the only satisfaction I got from my two and a half hours of wasted cinema time, was the satisfaction of reading the ridiculous arguments all the die-hard Hark fans put forth on the boards over at Twitch, after two extremely negative reviews just completely paying out on Seven Swords - both written by wuxia fans I might add. Well worth reading for a laugh, if you have time.

[Satyajit's Son]

Rubbish film

[Antoine Doinel]

Cool, thanks again soma. I remember reading somewhere that Hark's original cut was three hours and it seems that no matter what length it was eventually cut down to, it's a mess. In addition to the cuts you mentioned I believe there is a 100 minute version out there as well.

Anyway, I had forgotten completely about Once Upon A Time In China films, which are great. Maybe I'll rent those instead.

[soma]

No probs at all and definitely do hire out Once Upon A Time In China 1-3 again, solid entertainment. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Jet Li's back catalogue but his early stuff is fantastic. Tai-Chi Master and Fong Sai Yuk are must sees for sure, probably his best ever.

And the big wuxia success of recent times (and at MIFF last year) is definitely Jet Li's Fearless. It actually got voted the audience favourite in Sydney out of some 300 films, and was Top 5 films in Melbourne from memory (out of 400+). Mr. Hark should stand up and pay attention, as this is how it's done.

[fred]

And the big wuxia success of recent times (and at MIFF last year) is definitely Jet Li's Fearless. It actually got voted the audience favourite in Sydney out of some 300 films, and was Top 5 films in Melbourne from memory (out of 400+). Mr. Hark should stand up and pay attention, as this is how it's done.

I was all set to write a post defending the admittedly modest merits of Seven Swords, but I can see now that there's no point. Clearly Tsui just isn't your cup of tea. My opinion of Fearless is perhaps even lower than your opinion of Seven Swords. What a worthless film.

[soma]

I was all set to write a post defending the admittedly modest merits of Seven Swords...

Please do.

My opinion of Fearless is perhaps even lower than your opinion of Seven Swords. What a worthless film.

Why? Because it has solid characterisation, an engaging, cohesive and logically structured storyline, fantastic fight sequences and genuine emotional investment? What a crime.

[mattkc]

I saw this and thought it was really good (or perhaps great - but then again I didn't see it for the action or the story). I'd like to ask, what are his (Tsui Hark's) best films? I know "Peking Opera Blues" is the big favorite, which I haven't seen, but aside from that? The first one I saw was "Time and Tide", then "Green Snake", "We're Going to Eat You", and "Once Upon a Time in China", all of which I liked, but especially "Time and Tide" seems quite good. "Chinese Feast" really did not impress me, but maybe I was having an off-day or something. I really would like to get more familiar with this filmmaker.

[fred]

Time and Tide is one of my favorites as well, but Peking Opera Blues is definitely the supreme masterpiece--and one of the greatest films ever made.

Zu: Warriors from the Magic Mountain (as opposed to Legend of Zu which is much less well regarded) has or at least had a lot of champions, but I find it to be good rather than great (Legend of Zu is an interesting failure). The second and third Once Upon a Time in China films are both as good--or nearly so--as the first, with the third eschewing some of the more heavily scripted aspects of the first two for pure entertainment value. The Blade is very major, but sadly the only reasonable dvd is only subtitled in French (also true of several other Tsui films, of which Shanghai Blues at least is supposedly major). I also have a soft spot for his Jean-Claude Van Damme/Rob Schneider vehicle Knock Off, which is patently absurd but wildly inventive and pretty damn entertaining, warts and all. Then there are the films that he at least nominally only produced like A Better Tomorrow 1 & 2 and the Swordsman films, all of which are worth your time.

And give Chinese Feast another shot, it's not top tier, but it is pretty entertaining.

[lord_clyde]

I saw this and thought it was really good (or perhaps great - but then again I didn't see it for the action or the story). I'd like to ask, what are his (Tsui Hark's) best films? I know "Peking Opera Blues" is the big favorite, which I haven't seen, but aside from that? The first one I saw was "Time and Tide", then "Green Snake", "We're Going to Eat You", and "Once Upon a Time in China", all of which I liked, but especially "Time and Tide" seems quite good. "Chinese Feast" really did not impress me, but maybe I was having an off-day or something. I really would like to get more familiar with this filmmaker.

'Peking Opera Blues' is as good as it gets in my opinion. He also had a hand in 'The Killer' and 'A Better Tomorrow' but I think I heard that was up for debate and reason for he and John Woo's falling out. I sort of liked 'A Better Tomorrow III', but you can't do better than his 'Once Upon a Time in China' trilogy and 'Peking Opera Blues'.
Two fun facts:
According to IMDB his name is pronounced 'Choy Hock' and the next film he will be directing is 'The Eye 3'. Ouch.

[Mr Sausage]

but I think I heard that was up for debate and reason for he and John Woo's falling out.

He was the producer on both A Better Tomorrow and A Better Tomorrow II (I believe he even edited the first half of the latter movie with Woo taking the second). If I remember correctly, tensions, which had been running for a bit, boiled over on the sequel and led to their parting ways. Don't think he had anything to do with The Killer, tho', and the two Tomorrow films are pure Woo.

[mattkc]

Wow, quick responses, thanks.

Time and Tide is one of my favorites as well, but Peking Opera Blues is definitely the supreme masterpiece--and one of the greatest films ever made.

Looking forward to seeing it!!

Ah yes, I saw "Legend of Zu" as well. It was my least favorite of what I've seen so far. Too bad about "The Blade" not being available with English sub. I did just put "Knock Off" at the top of my netflix queue though...

I'll certainly give "Chinese Feast" another go sometime.

As for the first two "A Better Tomorrow" films, I've kind of been avoiding them due to my aversion to Woo (which admittedly isn't based on much), but I suppose I'll see them at some point. I wondered about the "Swordsman" films both for Tsui's involvement and because I also wondered about Ching Siu-tung, who seems to perhaps be of at least some interest? Also, I assume "The Big Heat" is a must. Just haven't gotten around to it yet - for me there are two big reasons to see that one, and they both start with the letter "T".

the next film he will be directing is 'The Eye 3'. Ouch.

Oh, I'm actually looking forward to it, especially if it means getting to see a Tsui on film. Unfortunately I got to him a little late and so missed my chance to see "Seven Swords" on the big screen.

[lord_clyde]

but I think I heard that was up for debate and reason for he and John Woo's falling out.

He was the producer on both A Better Tomorrow and A Better Tomorrow II (I believe he even edited the first half of the latter movie with Woo taking the second). If I remember correctly, tensions, which had been running for a bit, boiled over on the sequel and led to their parting ways. Don't think he had anything to do with The Killer, tho', and the two Tomorrow films are pure Woo.

A friend once told me that Tsui Hark wanted story credit on the film, but John Woo wouldn't have it and that was the cause of the falling out. All I could find in relation is this tidbit from the IMDB trivia section:

Tsui Hark was extremely unhappy with this film and wanted to have it completely recut. For example: Tsui felt that the focus of the movie should be on the cop instead of the killer. Therefor, he wanted the film to start with the scene that introduces the cop. The shootout in the restaurant, during which the killer blinds Sally Yeh, was to be completely cut and only inserted in flashbacks later in the movie. Neither Woo nor editor David Wu were going to reedit the film to Tsui's demands and due to a tight schedule (The Killer was going to premiere in Taiwan in a short time and some 100 cinemas had already booked the film), Hark didn't have the time to mess with the film. The Killer was a huge success when it premiered in Taiwan, which made Hark so furious that he (allegedly) threw things out of his office window.

[patrick]

God, was Seven Swords tiresome. We got in the TV series that follows the movie in at the store and I can only imagine how patience-testing it must be - everyone who rents it checks out the first disc and doesn't come back for any of the others.

Compared to Fearless (which I thought was a great combination of historical drama and martial arts film) and The Protector (probably the most exciting martial arts film of the last few years), Seven Swords just seemed weak and boring.