Blu-ray, in General

[patrick]

I'm betting The Weinstein Co. will switch to Blu-Ray (or release discs on both formats) very soon, since they have an exclusivity deal with Blockbuster and Blockbuster has chosen Blu-Ray as the format they'll carry.

[jedgeco]

Is there any reason to be worried/pissed off about Blu-Ray discs having some advanced type of copy protection on them?

In principal, yes, but as it actually plays out for the types of people on this forum (those interested in high-quality video/audio presentation more than dowloading a low-res copy over the internet), I think no. DVD had fairly robust copy protection when it was released that was cracked in a timely fashion. But the vast majority of people didn't care because you could get a factory sealed DVD for a fair price vs. the cost of recordable media. I see Blu-ray/HD-DVD going down the same path. Also, AFAIK, some of the more draconian copy-protection ideas were not implemented for either format.

In the end, any copy protection scheme will be cracked, but the crack probably won't be useful for the vast majority of the public until a late stage in the format.

More titles doesn't mean better titles. If you exclude the format neutral studios, I think the caliber of titles being released by Disney and Sony on Blu-ray is fairly awful (and Fox has pretty much stopped releasing titles for the time being). There are a couple of exceptions (Volver and the recently-announced The Lives of Others come to mind), but for the most part, I can't come up with more that six or eight titles I'd want that are Blu-ray exclusive

You obviously didn't hear that "Wild Hogs" will be a Blu-ray exclusive. Seriously, though, no doubt -- if you're already in HD-DVD, there nothing really compelling to move to BD. But as someone comtemplating jumping in, BD seems to be the better choice. BD has the momentum, the cream of the crop is format-neutral, and this list makes the forthcoming exclusives look like kind of a wash. I'll have to (hopefully temporarily) console the lack of Miami Vice, Battlestar Galactica, and Children of Men with The Graduate and Kill Bill.

I thought Weinstein Co. going format neutral was all but a done deal?

[The Invunche]

It's just a feeling I have..Everytime there's some news about hd-dvd they tend to get defensive and passionate about how microsoft should just give up and how consumers are choosing a format that is going to die soon.

You did read the quote from the Microsoft guy who basically admitted (as close as possible) that Microsoft only supports HD DVD to muddle the waters until a download format that they really want takes over, didn't you? Also, the article by Harry Knowles deserved a pretty harsh response. It was an exercise in ignorance and vomit inducing prose.

I'm an outsider for I think I'll stay away from high def for a bit,but the only reason I can see Blue Ray as winning is the Ps3 and the support of more studios.

I wont commit until the war is over. I think Blu-ray will win due to MUCH better studio support and slightly superior technical specs. I hope Blu-ray will win only because I want to war to end.

What I'm saying is that both formats are very similar and they both have pros and cons,probably sony will win because of the gamers support and all,but still I see no reason to get so aggressive against a very good (better in some regards,worse in others) format.
Just my two cents.

I fail to see the aggressiveness of DigitalBits and I fail to see where HD DVD has any real advantage over Blu-ray from a technical standpoint.

[LionelHutz]

You did read the quote from the Microsoft guy who basically admitted (as close as possible) that Microsoft only supports HD DVD to muddle the waters until a download format that they really want takes over, didn't you? Also, the article by Harry Knowles deserved a pretty harsh response. It was an exercise in ignorance and vomit inducing prose.

Well,that's the point.
Why to bother and give such a long and passionate answer just because a geek made some ignorants remaks about hd dvd ? I just had a feeling they actually got offended by the silly things he said.
I guess this counts for whoever decided to take a side in this format war,seems like it's a personal issue.
You can tell me that you prefer watching films on the tiny screen of your mobile and still you wouldn't get such a powerful reaction out of me.

I wont commit until the war is over. I think Blu-ray will win due to MUCH better studio support and slightly superior technical specs. I hope Blu-ray will win only because I want to war to end.

Probably since i'm fairly happy with what my upconverted dvds right now (I remember the analog days far too well to be too tired of sd already) and also I prefer to increase my dvd collection (Greed,where are you?) rather than buying popular films with a better definition,the format war isn't bothering me right now. I don't really care who's going to win,I still think it's going to be a niche market (masses are not ready to buy high def sets yet) and it will be around but won't supplant dvds for a bit. This neutrality is just what makes me puzzled when I see such animosity towards a format.
Since Blue-Ray and Hd-dvd so far haven't showed any relevant difference,I can't see why someone would be so much against it.I understand it's because people are tired of the war and just want the one who is more likely to win to get it over with,but still it's not like we're talking about a Divx Vs. DvD contest!

I fail to see the aggressiveness of DigitalBits and I fail to see where HD DVD has any real advantage over Blu-ray from a technical standpoint.

As I said,it's just a personal impression.Don't think Hd Dvd has any technical advantage,probably just a better software right now (if you count the european market)and no regional coding.But still it's going to be temporary I guess.
Blue-ray is probably going to win,my point is just that whenever I check thedigitalbits from time to time I see this long and passionate editorials about how hd-dvd should pull to plug.Surely there isn't enough difference between the two to justify all this energy pro BR and against Hd-dvd.

[jedgeco]

Sony is an coporate thug.

Come on. This is an electronics manufacturer, not Bectel. Besides, Microsoft, Intel, and Toshiba are what? 501(c)s? NGOs?

The vaunted studio support for BD boils down to Fox, Sony and the biltareal dual format participation of the others, bar Paramount and Studio Canal.

Buena Vista, MGM, Lionsgate, and possibly Anchor Bay.

HD DVD is NOT region coded

Score one for HD-DVD. But region coding wasn't more than a hiccup for DVD, so it's not a big issue IMO.

BD discs are highly susceptible to scractch and damage and can become unplayable making them difficult to rent.

The same thing was said about DVDs. In fact, the "problem" was the subject of an alarmist cover story in Home Theater Magazine ca. 1998.

The morons running the production of HD format (including Microsoft) are putting ZERO effort into promotion, relying on word of mouth amongst high end technnophiles.

Right. They had every advantage, plus a competitor that botched everything possible out of the gate. HD-DVD should have dealt the deathblow, but they blew it. They had a fire sale on players but still had to cut sales projections for the year. Why should that give anyone hope? Now the market seems to be choosing Blu-ray and the HD camp is saying it "feel[s] that the home video industry can support two competing disc formats, in much the same way that the gaming industry supports three." Doesn't sound like the words of someone who's playing to win.

From an ethical perspective Sony deserves to take the loss because of its corporate thuggery.

See above. I'm no Sony fan, but from an ethical perspective, Sony backed down in the mid-90s so that a unified DVD format could get hammered out. Sony took the loss last time around, and that earns good will in my book. Moreover, back in '05 when this silly format war could have been avoided, Sony threw Toshiba an lifeline when it should have thrown an anchor and offered Toshiba a compromise for a unified format. Toshiba walked away from the table, and here we are.

Finally, from an ethical perspective, Microsoft is probably only in this to try to wrest a stalemate that keeps both formats from taking off in hopes of Microsoft-dominated future downloading/VOD format. I can't get behind that.

[redbill]

From what I've discovered BD region-coding is spotty at best. They are capable of region coding, but basically all the catalog titles are all regions, and even some of the newer titles they haven't bothered to restrict - France's Paprika for example. Plus NA & Japan/Korea are in the same region, so its not that big a deal.

[denti alligator]

In the past couple weeks it's begun to sound like BD is going to "win" and HD die. Is this true? I'm with David in supporting HD, but I haven't yet bought a player. I'm planning on getting the Tosh A-20 before the end of the year.

[The Invunche]

HD DVD is NOT region coded

Yet, the HD DVD group has said region coding will be introduced.

HD is cheaper to manufacture (a factory turnaround from SD production to HD production takes 50 seconds.)

A single layer Blu-ray disc (25 GB) is cheaper to produce than a dual layer HD DVD disc (30 GB).

I have posted both these facts with sources earlier in this thread.

And I put my money where my (substantial) mouth is. Im getting really bored with so much commentary from people who havent shelled out yet for any sort of a player but have plenty to say.

Well forgive me for having an opinion. The fact that you have made an investment actually lessens the importance of your posts because now you're incapable on being objective. Reminds me of Daniel Dennet's Breaking the Spell in which he makes the point that people's need to defend their religion is proportional to their investment in that religion.

[redbill]

Plus NA & Japan/Korea are in the same region, so its not that big a deal.

This is precisely what I mean by Americacentric. So fucking Europe and the rest of the world dont count, as Regions B and C.

So much American thinking is local and never global. Ultimately The American Empire's arrogance on even petty issues like this will (and is) bring it unstuck. Wait for China to step in kiddo.

http://bluray.lindsite.dk/

Looks like over 75% of US-produced BD's are not region-coded. Which ones are you upset about missing out on? Click or Dirty Dancing - Anniversary Edition? That's just like the American Empire to force a Japanese company to prevent Europeans from watching Adam Sandler in HD...

[jedgeco]

Your opinion about this is entirely Americacentric.

Funny, I'm usually told that I "hate America first." Seriously, though, region coding was much stricter on DVD, and look how well that worked out—so well that I bought an out-of-the-box code free player 3 years ago for $55 from a major retailer. I respect the frustration about AU residents being treated like a second-class citizen, but beating up on a technology because it won't work as well for you is equally Australiacentric.

And I put my money where my (substantial) mouth is. Im getting really bored with so much commentary from people who havent shelled out yet for any sort of a player but have plenty to say.

As of yesterday, I've got a player on order. Do I have to wait until it shows up or until the credit card charge hits my account before I can have an opinion?

[Cinesimilitude]

As of yesterday, I've got a player on order. Do I have to wait until it shows up or until the credit card charge hits my account before I can have an opinion?

Wonderful, be sure to let us know what you think of the juddery image and disgusting digital artifacting on your $600-plus heap of junk so we can take joy in the fact that we paid half or even a third of what you did for the better (although yes, losing) format.

[LionelHutz]

So I'll end up backing the loser? Tough shit - at least Ive had the pleasure of buying and watching HD so far. And I put my money where my (substantial) mouth is. Im getting really bored with so much commentary from people who havent shelled out yet for any sort of a player but have plenty to say.

Should we all buy a player to be allowed to express our opinions ? This just proves my point..Why such animosity towards one format or another ?
Personally right now I'm still very happy with my dvds,some are enjoying their blue-ray discs and other their hd-dvd counterpart.There's no right or wrong,everybody should be happy with the choice the made,so why trying to justify it by bashing the opposite format or who hasn't jumped on the high def wagon yet ?

[The Invunche]

Wonderful, be sure to let us know what you think of the juddery image and disgusting digital artifacting on your $600-plus heap of junk so we can take joy in the fact that we paid half or even a third of what you did for the better (although yes, losing) format.

I thought you were above that kind of bullshit. Seriously.

[Antoine Doinel]

Just a question - though BluRay is "winning" the format war, isn't the severe underperformance of the PS3 a factor in the final result? It surprised me to read this week that Rockstar Games just signed an exclusive deal with XBox 360 for downloadable episodes of the forthcoming Grand Theft Auto IV.

I'm just a casual gamer, and as I wait for the next-gen systems to come down in price, that fact alone pretty much secured the fact that my next system will be an XBox 360 (with an HD add on of course). I can only imagine that even more serious gamers than myself that haven't purchased their next system will be heavily swayed by that fact alone.

[Cinesimilitude]

I thought you were above that kind of bullshit. Seriously.

I have a friend who lives a block away with a PS3 hooked up to an 52" LCD (mine is a 43" rear projection) and we've done extensive comparison's between both formats with movies on both formats, and he agrees that HD DVD on my tv looks better than Blu-Ray on his, and HD DVD on his TV looks better than anything we've ever seen as far as Home Theater goes, an it's not even 1080p. Did I have to be a jerk about it? No. The fact of the matter is that people who have so much to say without having experience with both or even one format is really bothersome. The main reason David and I are so happy with HD DVD is because it really is the better format for us as cinephiles and savvy internet buyers.

[barrym71]

Yet, the HD DVD group has said region coding will be introduced.

I don't think the DVD Forum has implemented anything specific on this yet, so it could still be a ways off (or never implemented at all). Current players are region-free (for HD DVD media) and will remain so, no matter what the DVD Forum decides to do about region controls in the future.

[Cinesimilitude]

Yet, the HD DVD group has said region coding will be introduced.

I don't think the DVD Forum has implemented anything specific on this yet, so it could still be a ways off (or never implemented at all). Current players are region-free (for HD DVD media) and will remain so, no matter what the DVD Forum decides to do about region controls in the future.

That's not completely true, I'd bet they have something implemented that if necessary, in order for a new HD-DVD to be played the firmware must be updated, bringing the region locking into the player.

[barrym71]

That's not completely true, I'd bet they have something implemented that if necessary, in order for a new HD-DVD to be played the firmware must be updated, bringing the region locking into the player.

Based on what I read in the AVS Forums, the region-coding couldn't be implemented solely by a software (firmware) upgrade, there would need to be a hardware component to it as well. Could be totally off-base, but it sounded reasonable.

[jedgeco]

Omnibus reply:

Wonderful, be sure to let us know what you think of the juddery image and disgusting digital artifacting on your $600-plus heap of junk so we can take joy in the fact that we paid half or even a third of what you did for the better (although yes, losing) format.

Um, Ok. Informed comment I've seen indicates that as of now, barring a few titles, PQ on identical titles is identical across formats. But YMMV. I'd be more interested in hearing the titles that you've been A/B-ing.

Should we all buy a player to be allowed to express our opinions ?

No, but personally, I'm ready to make the HD jump; if putting some skin in the game helps reach a format tipping point, bonus.

Make no mistake, at the end of the day, I'm format agnostic. I didn't/don't care which format wins. If I had HD-DVD right now, worst case scenario is I spend several years with an extra component on my shelf that's only good for a couple titles (hell, I could stack it on top of my LD player). But I'm not, and for someone getting in now, BD seems the rational choice.

isn't the severe underperformance of the PS3 a factor in the final result? It surprised me to read this week that Rockstar Games just signed an exclusive deal with XBox 360 for downloadable episodes of the forthcoming Grand Theft Auto IV.

I'm just a casual gamer, and as I wait for the next-gen systems to come down in price, that fact alone pretty much secured the fact that my next system will be an XBox 360

The next year or so will be an interesting time for the PS3. My sense is that while the breadth of PS3 sales has been disappointing, the depth of penetration/attachment rate as a BD device is pretty good. So its a failure in that it's not going to deliver the hoped-for 30 million players in homes, but it is successfully driving BD sales.

As to Rockstar, they seem to be playing both ends against the middle w/r/t GTA IV. There was something last year that was going to be a 360 exclusive, then PS3 got it too. I wouldn't be surprised if both platforms ended up with something exclusive. That being said, MS has done an impressive job of lining up publishers for the 360, and Sony's going to need to get some killer apps lined up for PS3 fast.

[redbill]

I thought you were above that kind of bullshit. Seriously.

I have a friend who lives a block away with a PS3 hooked up to an 52" LCD (mine is a 43" rear projection) and we've done extensive comparison's between both formats with movies on both formats, and he agrees that HD DVD on my tv looks better than Blu-Ray on his, and HD DVD on his TV looks better than anything we've ever seen as far as Home Theater goes, an it's not even 1080p. Did I have to be a jerk about it? No. The fact of the matter is that people who have so much to say without having experience with both or even one format is really bothersome. The main reason David and I are so happy with HD DVD is because it really is the better format for us as cinephiles and savvy internet buyers.

I assume you compared this with the latest ps3 1.8 firmware that supports 720p on BD playback? Before then it would downscale to 480p or scale to 1080i that an LCD may not support.

[redbill]

I thought you were above that kind of bullshit. Seriously.

I have a friend who lives a block away with a PS3 hooked up to an 52" LCD (mine is a 43" rear projection) and we've done extensive comparison's between both formats with movies on both formats, and he agrees that HD DVD on my tv looks better than Blu-Ray on his, and HD DVD on his TV looks better than anything we've ever seen as far as Home Theater goes, an it's not even 1080p. Did I have to be a jerk about it? No. The fact of the matter is that people who have so much to say without having experience with both or even one format is really bothersome. The main reason David and I are so happy with HD DVD is because it really is the better format for us as cinephiles and savvy internet buyers.

I assume you compared this with the latest ps3 1.8 firmware that supports 720p on BD playback? Before then it would downscale to 480p or scale to 1080i that an LCD may not support.

Can I take your silence as a "no"?

[Cinesimilitude]

I assume you compared this with the latest ps3 1.8 firmware that supports 720p on BD playback? Before then it would downscale to 480p or scale to 1080i that an LCD may not support.

Can I take your silence as a "no"?

You can take my earlier silence as me ignoring your assumption that I wouldn't know the difference between 1080i, 720p, and 480p on a 52" screen.

All comparisons were made at 1080i. my TV doesn't support 720p and I couldn't care less, I know all about how 720p delivers more lines per whatever than 1080i. By my eyes, 720p resulted in a softer image on my friend's TV with both a firmware updated PS3 and my 360 in 720p mode. (both were being run through component cables, just incase you wanted to know that too). For my money, unless HDMI does everyting for blu-ray, and nothing for HD-DVD, HD-DVD is the superior format visually. I couldn't tell the difference with sound.

In the PS3's defense, 720p did make the video a bit smoother, but on almost all titles I could still see digital artifacting when there was lots of movement. I think that once I've seen HD-DVD on 1080p I will be even more firm in my position on the matter, cause if 1080i looks smooth and film like to me, 1080p should blow my mind.

[The Invunche]

HD-DVD is the superior format visually

My problem with this statement (of anecdotal evidence) is that you base it on a very limited setup that might very well not be ideal. None of the websites that review both formats have come to the same conclusion (after Blu-ray stopped using MPEG2). Statistical analysis on all HD releases say the visual quality of the two formats is practically identical.

[LionelHutz]

Just to show you the ignorance about these two formats between ordinary people..
A friend of mine is convinced every single blue-ray disc is affected by a subtle blue filter in the picture.
Of course if the name was Green-ray,I'm sure he would be seeing a greenish tint now!
Anyway things like that make me realize how the general public either don't care about these new formats ,or is not into films too much to see the actual difference (obviously when you don't have a lcd or a plasma it's easy to be happier with your sd dvds I guess).
So,I'm still convinced it's going to be a niche market,which shouldn't surprise nor disappoint anyone(that didnt' stop people to enjoy laserdiscs right ?)

[Gigi M.]

Pirates of the Caribbean - Curse of the Black Pearl: SD Vs. BR comparison

It looks to me as The Invunche previously stated, "the visual quality of the two formats is practically identical."