Sicko (Michael Moore, 2007)

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davebert
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#51 Post by davebert »

Well, This Film Is Not Yet Rated got the MPAA to make a few key changes in its system, which I guess can hardly be described as "the world."

Since An Inconvenient Truth was largely dismissed by the non-converted choir, sometimes ridiculously so, I guess there's really nothing you can do to really challenge certain types of overwhelming, blissful ignorance, is there? If you've lived a lie long enough, it might be devastating to discover you've been a giant jackass the whole time. But I wouldn't know

I look forward to the slew of privately-funded counter-documentaries that are nothing but happy stories of Americans being sick and getting healthy again--all thanks to their caring, responsive HMOs! :wink:
patrick
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#52 Post by patrick »

I honestly believe that anyone who thinks that America's healthcare system is acceptable is deluded, and those who actually think that are only able to think that way out of luxury, so I'm interested in seeing how Moore's opponents attack Sicko. I'm guessing it will either take the form of long lists of tiny/insignificant factual errors or there's going to be some sort of "Michael Moore hates our hardworking doctors and nurses" backlash. Do people really respond to the words communism and socialism being thrown around anymore, since pretty much all Young Republicans grew up in a world without a USSR?
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tryavna
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#53 Post by tryavna »

davebert wrote:Since An Inconvenient Truth was largely dismissed by the non-converted choir, sometimes ridiculously so, I guess there's really nothing you can do to really challenge certain types of overwhelming, blissful ignorance, is there? If you've lived a lie long enough, it might be devastating to discover you've been a giant jackass the whole time. But I wouldn't know
As Stephen Colbert says, An Inconvenient Truth is true because it was so successful: "The market has spoken."

More seriously, however, Gore's film opened up the debate on global warming in America as never before. One of the happy by-products is that it has made it possible for "green" republicans and evangelicals to emerge from the shadows. I honestly think we'll be seeing long-term repercussions from Gore's film, even if nothing substantial occurs in the next 18 months or so.

Likewise, I hope that Moore's new film will at least raise awareness among people who have never had to think about the U.S. health care industry yet. With the aging of the Baby Boomers, we may see some gradual changes. "Evolution, not revolution," as it were. What other result can you expect from a movie?
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MichaelB
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#54 Post by MichaelB »

domino harvey wrote:in his defense, when's the last time a documentary changed the world
Krzysztof Kieslowski always played down the suggestion, but there seems to be a definite correlation between A Short Film About Killing being screened on Polish television in the late 1980s, a heated debate across the media immediately afterwards - followed by the government indefinitely suspending capital punishment (which was then abolished outright).

Documentaries per se can't change the world, but if given sufficient publicity and distribution they can have a colossal impact on public attitudes - especially if they highlight issues people have either ignored or never really thought about before.
Handsome Dan
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#55 Post by Handsome Dan »

patrick sez:
so I'm interested in seeing how Moore's opponents attack Sicko. I'm guessing it will either take the form of long lists of tiny/insignificant factual errors or there's going to be some sort of "Michael Moore hates our hardworking doctors and nurses" backlash. Do people really respond to the words communism and socialism being thrown around anymore, since pretty much all Young Republicans grew up in a world without a USSR?
I'm not a right-wing hatchet man but, if I was, I'd go after what seems like some bits of sloppy thinking in SICKO. I haven't seen the movie yet, only read a few articles, reviews and newsgroup postings that (seem to me to) give the game away (though I think I ought to point out here that I am very sympathetic with Moore's overall point RE: the US healthcare system (as near as I can tell)) If I get anything egregiously factually wrong, I await a deserved verbal tongue-lashing.

First off, using Cuba as an example of a model health-care system is just stupid. There seems to be some bits of context that Moore (presumably) ignores in order to make his case. Trains running on time and all that.

Second, the Commonwealth and EU healthcare systems may well be better than their American counterparts, but does he even attempt to address - even if only to diffuse criticism ahead of time - complaints about those very systems? Surely there are some customers out there with legitimate complaints?

Thing is, there's no such thing as a perfect way to ration limited resources, in this case, talent and technology. One way may work better than all others, but nothing solves everything - you're always going to address some problems and create still others no matter what you do. I'm not saying that all approaches are equal and that you can't say one is better than the other. But if Moore's just going to say that US healthcare helps no one and EU (etc) healthcare helps everyone, then I'm not sure why I should bother buying a ticket.

Does he illustrate a point with ironic use of a clip from some old 50s sitcom? Does he play that one 'Doctor Doctor' song at any point? He does, doesn't he...?
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Kirkinson
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#56 Post by Kirkinson »

The backlash has already started. There was an editorial in today's Chicago Tribune emphasizing the negative points of European countries' health care, specifically the long waits patients endure for treatment. I've seen similar arguments cropping up all over the web. The basic thesis they seem to be operating on is, "If you can't make the system perfect, you might as well not bother making any improvements." I guess that's an appeal to Americans' laziness. Not so much "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" as "if you can't remove every single last dent, you might as well not even get it running properly."
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MichaelB
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#57 Post by MichaelB »

Kirkinson wrote:There was an editorial in today's Chicago Tribune emphasizing the negative points of European countries' health care, specifically the long waits patients endure for treatment.
I've never really understood that argument. Certainly in Britain, if you don't want to wait, you have the option of paying. If you don't want to pay, you might have to wait. It seems a pretty fair deal to me.
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exte
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#58 Post by exte »

Kirkinson wrote:I guess that's an appeal to Americans' laziness.
:oops:
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#59 Post by David Ehrenstein »

"First off, using Cuba as an example of a model health-care system is just stupid."
The film makes no such claim. Neither does it posit that Britain Canada are the embodiment of perfection. It merely notes what they have to offer and wonders why the U.S. doesn't offer it. For instance, an inhaler that cost over 100 dollars in the U.S. can be had for a few pesos in Cuba.

The problem at the heart of Moore's opposition is the fact that they have been brainwashed since childhood into believing that the United States is the greatest coutnry in the world and anyone who so much as raises the slightest question to this ABSOLUTE TRUTH is to be torn limb from limb.

I am 60 years-old and I would love to have a penny for every time I've been told "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY, WHY DON'T YOU GO LIVE IN RUSSIA!!!!!!!!" each time I made so much as the mildest criticism of something the U.S. failed to do or did.

It's a wonder America didn't end up with a criminal cabal like Bush and Cheney a lot sooner.

People are fools.
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essrog
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#60 Post by essrog »

Handsome Dan wrote:Second, the Commonwealth and EU healthcare systems may well be better than their American counterparts, but does he even attempt to address - even if only to diffuse criticism ahead of time - complaints about those very systems? Surely there are some customers out there with legitimate complaints?
This has always been my problem with Moore's films. Everybody knows (or should know by now) that documentaries have no obligation to be objective, and that they're going to take a position. But in my mind, an argument is significantly weakened when you don't even bother to address possible counterpoints. You actually strengthen your argument if you acknowledge these counterpoints, then shoot them down. The most egregious example I can think of is in Fahrenheit 9/11 when Moore shows kids flying kites, etc., in Iraq to represent the peace before the U.S. invasion -- as I recall (I really hope I'm right on this), there was no mention of Saddam Hussein's atrocities. If your only background on Iraq (God help you) was that film, you'd have thought Iraq was an Edenic paradise before the U.S. came in and fucked it all up.

A much better way of approaching the argument would've been to explain that life was miserable for many Iraqis under Saddam, then explain why life is miserable for pretty much all Iraqis now, and that the war has been an unconscionable waste of Iraqi and American lives. Moore sacrifices his credibility when he can't (or won't) anticipate the opposing point of view, misguided though it might be.
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souvenir
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#61 Post by souvenir »

essrog wrote:The most egregious example I can think of is in Fahrenheit 9/11 when Moore shows kids flying kites, etc., in Iraq to represent the peace before the U.S. invasion
Surely no one would believe that was Iraq in a nutshell though. Those other images and reports, of Hussein's tyrannical rule, were the only view presented by the news media. I think Moore was using the kids as a counterpoint to the coverage Americans were shown of Iraq, where things were maybe made to look worse than they were. I can't imagine anyone going into that film without some basic knowledge that Iraq wasn't paradise.
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colinr0380
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#62 Post by colinr0380 »

essrog wrote: This has always been my problem with Moore's films. Everybody knows (or should know by now) that documentaries have no obligation to be objective, and that they're going to take a position. But in my mind, an argument is significantly weakened when you don't even bother to address possible counterpoints.
I agree, that's his big problem. In some ways I class Moore's films as less documentaries than as essay-films putting across a strong opinion with no obligation felt to show the other side of the argument (though I'm not sure of what kind of opposing view there could be to the views of Sicko!) - I still have the maybe outdated idea that documentaries should at least attempt objectivity even if we all know that is never truly possible and so I find the recent activist trend of Moore, Supersize Me, An Inconvenient Truth to be wrongly labelled, not exactly wrong for existing per se.

It is strange though that taking a more personal stance seems to give all the ready-made ammunition possible for someone to reject his arguments out of hand right there in the film itself, making it easy to brush off some of the more important issues raised as the rantings of a crank rather than having to really work at forming a coherent responce to the issues being dealt with - I haven't seen any of the film responses to Fahrenheit 9/11 that came out, but it seems like they take the personal attack rather than arguing the other point of view style of filmmaking. If even people desperate for someone to fight for their point of view and finally take people to task on some of these issues are groaning and rolling their eyes when seeing the way Iraq or other health services are portrayed then I'd hate to think that these moments give people who are opposed to the issues a get out clause to dismiss what otherwise are very important films.

I wouldn't count the confrontation with Charlton Heston in Bowling For Columbine with the above as that unfortunately shows another problematic side of Moore's films - unfocused and sloppy filmmaking. It makes perfect sense that the meeting with Heston is used as a climax to that film. I think the main point Moore was trying to put across there was that Heston had gone into communitites affected by guns and completely trampled over people's feelings to promote his own cause in an insensitive manner. That makes Moore visiting Heston's own home and asking insensitive and uncomfortable questions of Heston a way of saying to him "this is what you did to the people in the towns you visited. You showed no regard for people's feelings, just as I'm showing no regard for yours by confronting you in what should be the safe confines of your home - I came to where you feel you belong and rammed my own ideology down your throat, just as you did"

The problem comes because the last mention of Heston making speeches at gun rallies came a long time earlier in the film, maybe even over an hour earlier, and in the time since we've been on a magical mystery tour of all sorts of theories for gun crime (including the powerful scene of the kids taking the bullets removed from them back to Wal-Mart), that has distracted the audience from the Heston issue. We then return to it with Moore's visit to Heston's house without any sort of re-cap (and with all these other issues buzzing round our heads), and I get the feeling that this clouds the power of the confrontation because the audience might have, not forgotten Heston's speeches, but wouldn't have felt the visceral reaction from Heston saying "from my cold, dead hands" as powerfully an hour further on into the film. It does let the scene between the two play more unintentionally as a bullying of a frail old man than it should have done if the actual reasoning behind confronting Heston had been made more explicit in a quick re-cap before the meeting. That I think is a sign of poor editing, as it has obscured the fundamental issue behind the flashy "water-cooler moment" of the confrontation - and in the end the issues are what should be most important.

The Heston and Iraq in Fahrenheit problems seem to show that Moore is sometimes caught up in the excitement of his own take on events - a showman with a serious point to make, but sometimes too desperate for (or maybe underestimating of) an audience to feel their reaction rather than understand it. I've seen a couple of clips from Sicko and I think there should be a moratorium on the use of Adagio for Strings in cinema (and especially in documentaries!) as an underscore to tell us that "something sad is happening now"!
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essrog
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#63 Post by essrog »

souvenir wrote:I can't imagine anyone going into that film without some basic knowledge that Iraq wasn't paradise.
Neither can I, but within the self-contained world of the film, the juxtaposition of the images -- those expressing absolute happiness followed by those expressing destruction -- struck me as a very facile way of criticizing Bush and the U.S. There are innumerable more intellectually rigorous ways of pointing out the folly of the war, but Moore took the easy way out in that case. He was much more effective later in the film when he showed battlefield carnage, something you never get on the evening news.
colinr0380 wrote:Moore is sometimes caught up in the excitement of his own take on events - a showman with a serious point to make, but sometimes too desperate for (or maybe underestimating of) an audience to feel their reaction rather than understand it.
Perfectly stated.
David Ehrenstein
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#64 Post by David Ehrenstein »

In some ways I class Moore's films as less documentaries than as essay-films putting across a strong opinion with no obligation felt to show the other side of the argument (though I'm not sure of what kind of opposing view there could be to the views of Sicko!)
Precisely. The "You've got to show both sides" fraud is a means of neutralizing protest to the point that its rendered meaningless.

Neither Moore, nor anyone else, is "obligated" to "show the other side" of injustice.

By such stands The Sorrow and the Pity is outrageous because Marcel Ophuls declines to represent the Nazi "side" of the story.
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Steven H
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#65 Post by Steven H »

David Ehrenstein wrote:
In some ways I class Moore's films as less documentaries than as essay-films putting across a strong opinion with no obligation felt to show the other side of the argument (though I'm not sure of what kind of opposing view there could be to the views of Sicko!)
Precisely. The "You've got to show both sides" fraud is a means of neutralizing protest to the point that its rendered meaningless.

Neither Moore, nor anyone else, is "obligated" to "show the other side" of injustice.

By such stands The Sorrow and the Pity is outrageous because Marcel Ophuls declines to represent the Nazi "side" of the story.
All great points. And hey... Godwin's Law.
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Kirkinson
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#66 Post by Kirkinson »

exte wrote:
Kirkinson wrote:I guess that's an appeal to Americans' laziness.
:oops:
Sorry about that. But I should perhaps point out that I don't mean to exclude myself...I was talking about appealing to the lazy part of people's personalities, not necessarily suggesting that all Americans are lazy bastards all of the time. It just seems terribly difficult to get our people off the couch when it comes to politics and social change.
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exte
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#67 Post by exte »

Kirkinson wrote:
exte wrote:
Kirkinson wrote:I guess that's an appeal to Americans' laziness.
:oops:
Sorry about that.
No, I think you hit it right on the head, and it's embarrassing...
Handsome Dan
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#68 Post by Handsome Dan »

Dave E. sez:
The problem at the heart of Moore's opposition is the fact that they have been brainwashed since childhood into believing that the United States is the greatest coutnry in the world and anyone who so much as raises the slightest question to this ABSOLUTE TRUTH is to be torn limb from limb.
What's ironic is that that's Moore's schtick as well. All of his rhetoric - visual as well as verbal! - boils down to "My GOD!! This is the United Fricking States of America!! How could such a fantastic, wonderful place have so many guns floating around / have elected GWB / closed all the Ford plants / etc. etc.!! I, a Strohs-drinking blue-collar shlub, am shocked!"
I am 60 years-old and I would love to have a penny for every time I've been told "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY, WHY DON'T YOU GO LIVE IN RUSSIA!!!!!!!!" each time I made so much as the mildest criticism of something the U.S. failed to do or did.
Commie!

Colin sez:
The Heston and Iraq in Fahrenheit problems seem to show that Moore is sometimes caught up in the excitement of his own take on events - a showman with a serious point to make, but sometimes too desperate for (or maybe underestimating of) an audience to feel their reaction rather than understand it.
Pretty much my thoughts as well. I don't want a Sean Hannity for the left anymore than I want, well, the real Sean Hannity. Moore too often uses dumb jokes and pandering to the semi-educated as substitutes for argument and education. (I know, I know - far be it from me to suggest that people actually THINK and LEARN and WORK when they go to the movies.) I actually think that his TV show, THE AWFUL TRUTH, came closest to squaring that particular circle, and I wish he'd learned more from that. I've seen some early reviews of SICKO that suggest that that might be the case.

One other thing: why is the title as it appear in all the ads and posters written thusly: SiCKO. Why not Sicko or SiCkO or siCKO or sIcKo or any other seemingly random pattern of capitalization?
David Ehrenstein
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#69 Post by David Ehrenstein »

"The Heston and Iraq in Fahrenheit problems seem to show that Moore is sometimes caught up in the excitement of his own take on events - a showman with a serious point to make, but sometimes too desperate for (or maybe underestimating of) an audience to feel their reaction rather than understand it."

Feeeeeelinggs!
Whoa, whoa, whoa Feeeeelings!
Whoa, whoa, whoa Feeeeelings !. . . .
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tavernier
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#70 Post by tavernier »

Handsome Dan wrote:One other thing: why is the title as it appear in all the ads and posters written thusly: SiCKO. Why not Sicko or SiCkO or siCKO or sIcKo or any other seemingly random pattern of capitalization?
He did it so people like you would ask....
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colinr0380
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#71 Post by colinr0380 »

I'd better add that at the same time I criticised Moore's films for concentrating more on making the audience feel rather than understand, it could also be said that the best moments of his films do the same - such as the example essrog brought up of the war footage in Fahrenheit 9/11 which also affects the audience primarily on an emotional, gut level response of horror to what they are seeing.

He is a filmmaker of the heart rather than the head, for both better and worse! I think at his best many of his stunts grab the attention and fix the issues in people's minds for much longer than they would if they were just given a dry delivery - and the success he has had with his films and television series is probably due to that way of removing some of the inaccessibility from the issues and making people think they might be able to play a role in changing things (while I might agree about laziness being a factor another thing that creates apathy amongst people is a sense of futility, of events rumbling on regardless of whatever they feel about the issue. The Iraq war is a big example of that, where the war was pursued with a single-mindedness that nobody, even people in positions to oppose it, could have stopped. At least Moore was able to suggest that on an individual level you could register your displeasure, even if it wasn't going to change things, and say "not in my name"! Even if it turned out it wasn't enough to change the election results!)
David Ehrenstein wrote: Precisely. The "You've got to show both sides" fraud is a means of neutralizing protest to the point that its rendered meaningless.

Neither Moore, nor anyone else, is "obligated" to "show the other side" of injustice.

By such stands The Sorrow and the Pity is outrageous because Marcel Ophuls declines to represent the Nazi "side" of the story.
I hadn't thought about it that way! I don't want to suggest that an 'essay-film' is any better or worse than a classical 'documentary', more that they seem to be separate types of films using non-fiction material. I like the film The Corporation - it plays like a documentary and interviews people with different viewpoints on the issue, while at the same time leaving little doubt in the audience that it subscribes to the 'corporations are thieving scumbag psychopaths' point of view! (The When The Levees Broke film seems similar in not being ambiguous about whether its sympathies are with the government or the people of New Orleans!) A documentary as I'd loosely try to define it is not excluded from having a bias either through a voiceover or a choice of interview subjects, but often tries to interview as many people from all sides of the subject as possible to try and produce as much of a comprehensive overview as it can. Bringing up Nazi's, I'm reminded of a film like Shoah, or the BBC series The Nazis: A Warning From History which does feel an obligation to interview people involved in the events of the time in the Nazi regime. It doesn't mean that they are condoning Nazism by including interviews that allow people the chance to justify themselves (the title of the BBC series suggests the attitude they expect the audience to take, if they didn't already realise that Nazis were bad!), but it allows the audience to hear an often unheard perspective on the events. It also gives the audience a small opportunity to think about the subject for themselves and decide on their opinion of the person rather than being forced to see things only from the perspective of the omnipresent filmmaker telling us what to feel in essay films (though documentaries have their own subtler ways of suggesting to us what to feel about what they show and, as you say, to neutralise interaction by using a framework that suggests it is an 'offficial' version of a story). Without being told what to feel the interviewees stand and fall by their words and while essay films have a purpose in spurring a viewer to action a classical documentary in a way depends on the viewer already being able to interact and say "I don't agree with what he said" or "I think that person had a point, but...."

Essay films have just as important a place in non-fiction filmmaking. Not just Sorrow and the Pity, but we could also think of Night and Fog, Letter To Jane (and from the sound of them the Dziga-Vertov group films) and the Adam Curtis films such as Pandora's Box, The Century Of The Self, The Power of Nightmares and this years The Trap. They add accessibility, give the subjective take on events, give important insights into the way people think and feel about the issues rather than debating issues on a more impersonal level, and can even call for action or change.

Hearts & Minds is interesting as it takes a 'classical documentary' structure with interviews from all across the range of people involved in the Vietnam war, but also at times uses an essay film format mostly in the scenes involving the Vietnamese people reacting to the camera or the emotive way some of the accounts are spoken by the translators (very different to the impassive BBC-style way of just translating what is said without a nuance in tone or emphasis in the speech to create emotion). I would probably put this with the documentary group, but I realise my groupings are arbitrary and not representative of an official cannon, just my attempt to order essay films and documentaries in a way that doesn't denegrate either.

Really the main criticism of the films by Moore that I have seen so far is less that he takes an antagonistic stand or doesn't bother to fully represent both sides of an argument (that is sort of a given in an essay film that is not pretending to impartiality). It is more that he can sometimes be sloppy and disregard and manipulate certain events in his journey to the larger point he is trying to make - that often ends up weakening that larger point through it being built on not the most stable of foundations!

The House Next Door article I linked to above compares Moore with Adam Curtis, but I think the nearest British equivalent to Moore was Mark Thomas. I suppose Thomas got his Channel 4 series off the back of the success of Michael Moore's TV Nation series (which I think was screened and partly funded by the BBC), but from 1996 to around 2000 his Mark Thomas Comedy Product show was a similar combination of scathing political comedy stand up, calls for viewers to do their part and large scale stunts. I still remember the stunt where he flew a hot air balloon over the restricted airspace of the Menwith Hill listening base!

Strange how the heightened security and tensions now that we are in the 'war on terror' completely prevents stunts of that kind occuring any more. That seems a way that increased security has protected governments from dissent.

The show finished around the time Channel 4 started showing Big Brother. Make of that what you will.... :wink:

EDIT: An episode of the Mark Thomas Comedy Product programme.
Last edited by colinr0380 on Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
patrick
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#72 Post by patrick »

amazing New York Post review

My favorite quotes:
The film doesn't open until June 29, but already has been leaked on the Internet, free, with Moore's blessing. The central pleasure offered by Marxism is observing the way it is programmed to destroy itself.
What about stats? Moore emphasizes life-expectancy figures in which the U.S. slightly lags some other countries. But life expectancy involves many factors; two that Moore is especially knowledgeable about, obesity and firearms homicide, are special American plagues.
The law of supply and demand can no more be repealed than the law that all documentary films must be left-wing.
Moore, of course, has a Castro-ish history of suppressing dissent.
I know the Post is a right-wing rag and certainly no paper of record, but what responsible editor would approve this?
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Gropius
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#73 Post by Gropius »

The law of supply and demand can no more be repealed than the law that all documentary films must be left-wing.
It's all been downhill since Riefenstahl, hasn't it.
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domino harvey
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#74 Post by domino harvey »

That reminds me, it's a shame Ann Coulter's been too busy calling John Edwards' wife a cheap slut to take more deserved pot shots at America's portliest pinko, Michael Moore, and his new film that she will never actually see, I Still Hate America.
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tavernier
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#75 Post by tavernier »

J. Hoberman's qualified rave in the Voice:

[quote]“We're Americans. We go into other countries when we need to. It's tricky, but it works.â€
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