157 The Royal Tenenbaums

[flyonthewall2983]

Someone mentioned that Wes doesn't do a lot of pop references, this is another thing I like. He just creates a world and wallows in it.

I totally agree with this, because in a way it enhances the "escapism" aspect of these films without losing the reality of the emotions of the story. He does this in Rushmore as well, which without knowing it you would never have guessed he filmed it entirely in Texas. In this film, it's especially impressive that he's able to do this in such a famous place as New York City, yet still make it his NYC.

[domino harvey]

The scene in Tenenbaums when Margot steps off the bus to Nico's These Days is an example. There's a whole fleet of directors now who specialise in this.

Someone mentioned that Wes doesn't do a lot of pop references, this is another thing I like. He just creates a world and wallows in it.

What makes this post especially funny is that the scene you mention is lifted wholesale from Franny and Zooey.

I don't want to be accused of Anderson-hating, I quite like this film, but I don't pretend it's anything approaching original.

[Steven H]

What makes this post especially funny is that the scene you mention is lifted wholesale from Franny and Zooey.

I don't want to be accused of Anderson-hating, I quite like this film, but I don't pretend it's anything approaching original.

Salinger used "These Days" in Franney and Zooey? He really is a genius.

Originality is one of the most deceptive qualities to talk about in any type of art. The only thing I didn't take to in Magic Hate Ball's post was about "fine tuning". I'm more interested in honesty in film, or at least what I naively perceive to be honesty, rather than riffing on what's been done before. Just make the movie you want to make and let us decide if we like it or not, if it happens to be a little secondhand, I'm fine with that. Anderson seems to be doing this, and that's part of the reason I care as much about what he's doing as any of the other masters of the medium that I'm interested in.

[Andre Jurieu]

What makes this post especially funny is that the scene you mention is lifted wholesale from Franny and Zooey.

Salinger used "These Days" in Franney and Zooey? He really is a genius.

Ok, I'm glad someone else had the same exact reaction that I did to those comments. Mentioning a song that wouldn't even be recorded for another 7 years would really be impressive, even for Salinger. Besides, hasn't Anderson widely acknowledged that the stories about the Glass family heavily influenced The Royal Tenanbaums? I thought it was acknowledged in the press packages handed out during the film's initial release.

[domino harvey]

Well, I guess I thought it was obvious that I was discussing the actual scene taking place and not the music playing, but oh ho you got me.

You're right, this isn't news, I just thought it was funny that Anderson was being praised for his originality via one of his most recognizable homages. And to be clear, I never criticized Anderson for a lack of being "original," I have no problem with an artist borrowing from other works, I just don't want to see him/her being praised for innovation.

[Steven H]

Well, I guess I thought it was obvious that I was discussing the actual scene taking place and not the music playing, but oh ho you got me.

You're right, this isn't news, I just thought it was funny that Anderson was being praised for his originality via one of his most recognizable homages.

It was obvious, but people other than you on this messageboard can use a silly joke to make a point. Calling out someone for stealing a scene for a film, from a book, that they've already publicly announced was a huge inspiration, is overkill. And it would have been funny if Magic Hate Ball had praised Anderson for his originality... instead of saying originality is impossible, or something.

[domino harvey]

Well, I guess I thought it was obvious that I was discussing the actual scene taking place and not the music playing, but oh ho you got me.

You're right, this isn't news, I just thought it was funny that Anderson was being praised for his originality via one of his most recognizable homages.

It was obvious, but people other than you on this messageboard can use a silly joke to make a point. Calling out someone for stealing a scene for a film, from a book, that they've already publicly announced was a huge inspiration, is overkill. And it would have been funny if Magic Hate Ball had praised Anderson for his originality... instead of saying originality is impossible, or something.

One of my favorite things about Wes Anderson is how he mixes and matches music to image. The scene in Tenenbaums when Margot steps off the bus to Nico's These Days is an example. There's a whole fleet of directors now who specialise in this.

Does this not imply that because of Anderson, there are now directors who "specialize" in this type of scene (whatever that even means?), which Magic Hate Ball is praising Anderson as instigating? I'd say my point still stands.

[Steven H]

Does this not imply that because of Anderson, there are now directors who "specialize" in this type of scene (whatever that even means?), which Magic Hate Ball is praising Anderson as instigating? I'd say my point still stands.

All I took from it is that he's inspired some imitators of his own. I don't think that implies originality, though it might imply innovation, and would that be such a bad thing (not entirely defensible or indefensible)? I'm personally not interested in arguing about whether Anderson is "innovative".

[Magic Hate Ball]

Well, I guess I thought it was obvious that I was discussing the actual scene taking place and not the music playing, but oh ho you got me.

And I was discussing how the music fits the scene. I win!

Originality is one of the most deceptive qualities to talk about in any type of art. The only thing I didn't take to in Magic Hate Ball's post was about "fine tuning". I'm more interested in honesty in film, or at least what I naively perceive to be honesty, rather than riffing on what's been done before. Just make the movie you want to make and let us decide if we like it or not, if it happens to be a little secondhand, I'm fine with that. Anderson seems to be doing this, and that's part of the reason I care as much about what he's doing as any of the other masters of the medium that I'm interested in.

What I'm saying is that Anderson will (honestly) say, "I like that shot", if he sees it in a film, and thinks, "How can I apply it to my own film". For me, it's not the shot that's used, but how it's used. Anyone can use a dolly zoom, but only a few can use it well. Anyone can zoom in recklessly, but only a few can do it well, so on and so forth. Some people have talent but no skill, others have skill but no talent. Skill would be knowing how to do a dolly shot but not knowing when to use it, talent would be the potential to know when to use it, but not knowing how to use it at all (or even knowing it exists). Anderson, fortunately, has both talent and skill.

Of course, originality is another thing altogether.

One of my favorite things about Wes Anderson is how he mixes and matches music to image. The scene in Tenenbaums when Margot steps off the bus to Nico's These Days is an example. There's a whole fleet of directors now who specialise in this.

Does this not imply that because of Anderson, there are now directors who "specialize" in this type of scene (whatever that even means?), which Magic Hate Ball is praising Anderson as instigating? I'd say my point still stands.

The fleet of directors I'm referring to specialise in mixing-and-matching music and imagery. Thinking back, this might not be entirely true; for every Punch-Drunk Love there are ten Mr. Brooks (not implying Mr. Brooks is as good as PDL so let's not catfight about such a tiddly little example).

This is fun! We should do it more often.

[Andre Jurieu]

Well, I guess I thought it was obvious that I was discussing the actual scene taking place and not the music playing, but oh ho you got me.

But it seemed obvious that Magic Hate Ball was discussing the interaction between Anderson's images and the music he has chosen to accompany the scene.

One of my favorite things about Wes Anderson is how he mixes and matches music to image. The scene in Tenenbaums when Margot steps off the bus to Nico's These Days is an example. There's a whole fleet of directors now who specialise in this.

The "this" in the "specialize in this" comment seems to refer to the ability to meld a specific piece of contemporary music with the images, not the creation of the actions within the scene. The previous comments within the post pretty much admit that he doesn't even consider Anderson to be a true original.

If your going to label someone else's comments as "funny" shouldn't you at least make certain that you are interpreting their comments correctly?

[domino harvey]

MY point was "Hey, isn't it funny that arguably the most 'homage'-y scene of the film is being praised for it's originality"-- knowing full-well that he was praising the use of music, just sort of a "Heh" kind of thing. I wasn't even trying to attack him or anyone else, I even tried including a disclaimer that I liked the film, but nothing in the world can stop Andersonites from defending even the smallest of minutiae.

[Andre Jurieu]

MY point was "Hey, isn't it funny that arguably the most 'homage'-y scene of the film is being praised for it's originality"

The point the rest of us are trying to make is that he wasn't really praising the scene for it's originality (at least not based upon it's narrative content).

... but nothing in the world can stop Andersonites from defending even the smallest of minutiae.

Personally, this has nothing to do with whether or not I enjoy Anderson's movies. If you were making similar comments about someone's thoughts on Tarkovsky or Welles, I probably would have used the same line of reasoning. This really has nothing to do with "fandom."

[Steven H]

MY point was "Hey, isn't it funny that arguably the most 'homage'-y scene of the film is being praised for it's originality"-- knowing full-well that he was praising the use of music, just sort of a "Heh" kind of thing.

Back to square one.

I wasn't even trying to attack him or anyone else, I even tried including a disclaimer that I liked the film, but nothing in the world can stop Andersonites from defending even the smallest of minutiae.

As opposed to the Godardites? Bergmanites? What in the world else are we supposed to do in a discussion forum? Frisbee golf?

Anyway, I think we're treading into Infighting and Navelgazing territory, but I do think the discussion brought up some important things about Anderson's films; his use of pop culture (probably the most contentious thing about him), escapism (flyonthewall mentioned this, but it didn't go anywhere unfortunately), and Salinger plagiarism.

As for culture references, Anderson's films aren't exactly Family Guy. The homages and nods are generally obscure foreign films, children's books, and generations old pop songs. It's not like he's using product placement, Lion-O lunch boxes, and Green Day. He's always accused of being ironic, and there's certainly something to that, but he also seems to really love the things that inspire him and have made their way into his work, rather than the Mr. Show character wearing a "The Return of the Curse of the Creature's Ghost" shirt just because he hates it (is it ok to use pop culture references in film discussion posts?).

The escapism, and attempted timeless quality, is an interesting part of Anderson. In a big way its what separates him from his peers, that he's trying to push past just telling a story, and attempting to really create a world (usually in a similar way to Bergman's Fanny and Alexander). One of the most telling things is in the grocery store during Royal and his grandkids "outing", when he's trying to get them to steal, all the labels are turned backwards, so you don't see any brands. That sort of minutiae has always meant a lot to me.

As for Salinger plagiarism, what can you say? I'm certain Holden Caufield would have strangled Max Fischer to death, but he would have had the biggest crush in the world on Margot Tennenbaum.

[mfunk9786]

Having revisited this film recently, and having seen it countless times since its release, I feel I have to just put this out there:

This is one of my five favorite films of all time. Regardless of what the other four films are (and they change often), this will always be one of them.

Obviously enjoying Anderson's work is not in style among cinephiles right now (unless you're Glenn Kenny) but it's something that I can't help but do more often than not. And when it comes to Tenenbaums, there have been very few films released this decade that have been more fully realized directorial visions than this. Anderson knew exactly what he wanted, and while there is a ton of influence in this film, it's still an insanely detailed, layered piece of work. While the sterility of the set design and Simpsons-esque lack of wardrobe variety was once a negative for me, upon viewing the film again and again, they've become huge pluses. The world of the Tenenbaums doesn't exist anywhere else than in this film. Very few people can even compare their personal lives to those of the characters in this film.

To take a concept and characters that are so detached from most people's reality and wring so much real emotion out of the viewer is an incredible feat on the part of Anderson. It's easy for a director to move viewers when they take concepts that are extremely relatable to the average person (point a to point b romance, family values, triumph, etc) and wring potential out of them. But when you have a man who is hopelessly in love with his adopted sister, a father who is pretending to have a fatal illness, and a shattered shell of a widower who's overwhelmed with fear over losing his sons - all within a shell of primary colors and bizarre secondary characters - making the audience have an emotional response is quite the accomplishment.

The scene that really clicks with me takes place in Richie Tenenbaum's tent. It's a touching encounter between he and Margot that really feels like decades of tension finally being released, while within the frame, there are perfectly placed props all over, from the small turntable to the perfectly even diagonal row of miniature toy cars. It's real emotion managing to break through what is an unflinchingly self-conscious production design. And this sort of thing occurs numerous times throughout the film.

An example:



When looking at this still, it's easy to notice the perfect row of luggage, the rigid movement of the men behind Richie, etc. But in the context of the film, all I'm thinking about is the emotion bubbling up inside Richie as Margot approaches him. It's amazing work for a filmmaker who is criticized for making shallow movies. To me, this is the polar opposite of shallowness.

To anyone out there who also enjoys Tenenbaums, what is it that makes that so? Vice versa?

[Antoine Doinel]

The Royal Tenenbaums is my favorite Wes Anderson film hands down. I think what appeals to me most is Anderson's bookish, literate setting and his fairly tale version of New York with busted up gypsy cabs, (non-existent) 375th YMCAs and candy color peaked brownstones. There is something about the entire Tenenbaum family - with shelves of National Geographics, rooms filled top to bottom with board games that harkens back to a very specific period in my childhood and in my early twenties. There is familiar nostalgia about the film and the characters that really resonates with me that - as its becoming quickly apparent -- I can't quite articulate. But all of this would be nothing if the story wasn't there, and each time I watch it, the same parts still affect me just as deeply as they did when I first watched the film. The sequence in the screencap above is breathtaking; the first kiss between Henry and Etheline is wonderful (and for all the flack Anderson took for The Darjeeling Limited, I don't think he gets enough credit for tossing in an interracial romance that just is) and the closing scene between Chas and Royal ("I've had a rough year") gets a lump in my throat each time.

While in each of his films, Anderson strives to conceive a unique world for his characters, I think has been his most fully realized piece. In many ways, the Tenenbaums are not unlike the Ekdahl family in Fanny & Alexander. Both are families in crises who are heavily involved in artistic or entrepreneurial endeavors, yet there is a richness and foundation in both, that makes them who they are.

[Antoine Doinel]

How the film is similar to Infinite Jest.

[foofighters7]

Just thought I would share this.

First,
I'm aware many people on this forum do not particularly like lists, so let's not even get into that.

I was compiling a list of my 100 favorite films from 2000-2009 (on another forum).

I worked backwards from 100. (I had my top 10 list from each year already done, so It wasn't exactly TOO difficult).

At the end, RTs ended up #1.

Funny thing is, if you would have asked me before I did this, 'what was my favorite film of this era', I might have mentioned it as one of my favorites, but would not have directly linked it to the #1 spot.

Fantastic film in basically every way possible.

[Napier]

Fantastic film in basically every way possible.

I would have to agree. Even if I happen to catch a minute on TV or whatever, I can't stop watching. Definitely a strong candidate for a BD upgrade.

[foofighters7]

Fantastic film in basically every way possible.

I would have to agree. Even if I happen to catch a minute on TV or whatever, I can't stop watching. Definitely a strong candidate for a BD upgrade.

Very True. They need to Blu this bastard.

[Napoleon]

Fantastic film in basically every way possible.

Is a backlash against the Anderson backlash in the offing!

I would have to agree. Even if I happen to catch a minute on TV or whatever, I can't stop watching. Definitely a strong candidate for a BD upgrade.

Especially as the current SD transfer is a bit of dog. Soft to the point of blurred in places. Even if the SD were OK a film with as much colour (esp the reds and browns of Autumn) would benefit hugely from the upgrade.

[Matt]

I recently watched the DVD again and was shocked at how poor the transfer is. Still a great movie, though, and also my top pick of the past decade.

[foofighters7]

For me, one of the great things about this film (and for me this is one of many) is that you have a good number of 'NAMES' in the film, yet they are not simply wondering around or used to fill up a film poster.

I hate seeing films chock-full-of-'stars' yet completely miss the idea of putting them to use.

With each Actor I remember their character. They mean something to the film.

Having said that, I also believe for many of the Actors involved, it would be one of, if not their best performance.

For me his style and the way he shoots makes me think of Scorsese...only pushed through the eyes of a child (in a good way)...if that makes any sense at all. haha

[Jeff]

It would be near the top of my best of decade list too. Besides Kenny, I know that Dave Kehr and Kent Jones are both really big fans.

There is an HD transfer on Encore On Demand right now, but it's cropped to 16:9, and as such is full of horrible digital pans that make it hard to watch. It was actually giving me a headache to the point that I had to shut off the HD and throw in the SD Criterion disc to finish the movie.

[Brian C]

I recently watched the DVD again and was shocked at how poor the transfer is.

Sad but true. It was one of the first discs I popped in when I first got my HDTV a few years back, and already at that time I thought it looked bad. Tried it again when I bought the Blu-ray player, in the hopes that the upscaling would help, but no dice. Same with Rushmore. They're both very muddy, overly digital, and generally unappealing.

But yeah, both movies are personal faves of mine, also. I've never thought Stiller, for one, was ever better than in Tenenbaums.

[Highway 61]

I've never thought Stiller, for one, was ever better than in Tenenbaums.

So true. I realize this is hardly a fresh insight, but his reading of that line cannot be praised enough. I hope we see him working on a similar caliber in Greenberg.

And regarding the transfer, as far as I can recall, Criterion hasn't even hinted at this or Rushmore getting Blu upgrades, which surprises me. I hope Buena Vista won't be screwing them over.