Lake Of Fire (Tony Kaye, 2007)

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Oedipax
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:48 pm
Location: Atlanta

#26 Post by Oedipax »

tavernier wrote:You can show the procedure without literally rubbing our noses in it. Bringing the pan filled with the remains up to the camera as the doctor splashes around in the bloody muck and we see a tiny shriveled arm or part of the head with two tiny eyes might be dramatic, but it's also unnecessary.

We get the point.
Well, have you seen the film? Maybe it's reactionary or simplistic to say, "Let the images speak for themselves," but I still find myself sympathetic to this argument. Whether you're for or against something - at least have the intellectual honesty to really understand what you're talking about before coming to judgment. And by understand, I really mean seeing - in the same sense that one intellectually understands their mortality always, but may not truly feel it viscerally until looking at, for instance, Brakhage's film on autopsy. It's a matter of confronting things, not falling prey to some notion of 'tact' which is already ideology.

To raise another example, it's often been remarked that Frederick Wiseman's films are on some level enormously, gallingly tactless - and they're all the better for it, in my opinion. They capture more of what it is to be human, they give us a better picture of society and life in our times by deliberately showing us things that 'good taste' would seek to hide.

Just intuitively, I suspect the film won't be any great work of art, but that's separate from arguing whether or not certain images should or should not be seen. Of course they are emotionally loaded - the whole issue is, and I'm sure that's a large part of what the film is about. Maybe we should see the aftermath of an abortion clinic bombing in equally painful detail. That would be honest, too.
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tavernier
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:18 pm

#27 Post by tavernier »

Have you read all the posts in this thread? I mentioned that I saw it, otherwise I wouldn't keep describing things that are in it.

EDIT - Kaye does show images of abortion doctors' bodies after they were gunned down, but with nowhere near the explicitness of the aborted fetus parts.
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Oedipax
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:48 pm
Location: Atlanta

#28 Post by Oedipax »

tavernier wrote:Have you read all the posts in this thread? I mentioned that I saw it, otherwise I wouldn't keep describing things that are in it.

EDIT - Kaye does show images of abortion doctors' bodies after they were gunned down, but with nowhere near the explicitness of the aborted fetus parts.
Okay - my apologies for that, and yes I have been reading the thread with great interest, but for some reason was thinking only yoshimori had seen it so far.

I don't want to reduce this to just arguing for some kind of proportional gore - that if he includes a close-up of a fetus in a pan, that he must also include close-ups of shrapnel-filled corpses from a bombed clinic. I assume the availability of materials depicting the latter might've been limited.

I'm not defending Kaye's particular camera movement in this scene, having not seen it yet - maybe the camera does push in in such a way that is monstrous, like Rivette said of the tracking shot in Kapo - I'm just arguing more generally against this notion of tactfulness that we sometimes encounter in film. That is to say, the assumption, almost a priori, that one should never show something in such graphic detail. That's dangerous.

But I understand we're now almost talking about two different things, and it is quite possible that Kaye's film does cross a line, not so much of taste, but of basic humanity: if he films it simply to agitate the audience, to be 'edgy,' to get a cheap reaction, stir up controversy. That's obviously reprehensible, if so.
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Svevan
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:49 pm
Location: Portland, OR

#29 Post by Svevan »

Perhaps he's compensating for his cheap taste in showing abortions by interviewing southern hillbillies as if they are authorities.
yoshimori
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:03 am
Location: LA CA

#30 Post by yoshimori »

My recall, which may be faulty, is that the aesthetic details of the shot in question - the doctor's hand fishing through the bloody guck of disassembling tiny hands and limbs in a silver pan - were not particularly sensationalist. No meaningful push-in or weepy music or anything like that. Tavernier can perhaps correct me if he recalls the details more specifically.

That said, I'm kind of surprised that people - people who have walked into a documentary about ABORTION, for goodness sake - are particularly put off by such images. Shouldn't we by able to look at something like this and integrate it into our positions?

I was much more upset with the Kaye's silly journalistic attitude of giving everyone "equal" time and questioning no one. The movie's POV suggest that either a) Kaye, unlike pretty much everyone else who's thought about these matters, is incapable of stating where he stands, or, more likely, b) he's pretending to take a kind of "oh-I-don't-know--it's-so-difficult-a-subject" stance for dramatic effect. ... Thus, the pretention.
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tavernier
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:18 pm

#31 Post by tavernier »

I actually remember a couple of scenes where we are shown the gory details, so to speak, along with a few snippets of one of those anti-abortion films that show a jellied fetus being sucked out, etc. I think it's the accumulation of all those details that make it sensationalist.

I do agree with Yoshimori's second theory: Kaye takes no sides, which he might think of as a principled stance, but it seems phony, considering what he shows us over and over for 150-plus minutes. Writer Nat Hentoff is the only sane person who speaks who is against abortion, and Dershowitz seems to waver--although he is pro-choice--but most of the others are raving lunatics.

Maybe Kaye thought that he didn't need to slant it since the Christian right wingers take the rope and hang themselves repeatedly with their ignorant comments.
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colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#32 Post by colinr0380 »

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