322 The Complete Mr. Arkadin

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GringoTex
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:57 am

#226 Post by GringoTex »

EMalatesta wrote:The next time you watch Mr. Arkadin, keep in mind the following list from a poll conducted of the editorial staff of Cahiers du Cinema some time in the late 1950's. There were some well-known names on that staff in those days (e.g., Bazin, Godard, Rivette, Rohmer, Truffault). The editors picked the top directors of all time, then picked the best film of those directors. Below is their list.
Yes, but you're omitting the most important postscript to that poll. As I'm sure you all know, Andre Bazin was the "godfather" of those Cahiers critics. He supported them, nurtured them, and advised them. They based much of the auteur theory (especially its evaluative baseline) off of his theoretical writings. But Bazin was never very completely comfortable with the auteur theory. He was gentle in his objections to its ...until les enfants terribles decided to declare what Bazin considered a very problematic film to be Welles' grand masterpiece. That's when Bazin took off the gloves and spanked them hard for being such wrong-assed little brats. And shortly thereafter, it was revealed that the cut of the film the Cahiers critics saw was an abomination of Welles' original intentions. Needless to say, they abruptly ceased their championing of the film.

The taste of the Cahiers critics was not wrong very often (regardless of what you think of their theorizing), but Confidential Report was the exception that proved the rule. (This also applies to their ridiculous evaluation of Capricorn as Hitchcock's best film, which is hilariously undermined in Truffaut's feeble attempts to defend the film against Hitchcock himself in their interview book.)
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HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm

#227 Post by HerrSchreck »

EMalatesta wrote:The next time you watch Mr. Arkadin, keep in mind the following list from a poll conducted of the editorial staff of Cahiers du Cinema some time in the late 1950's. There were some well-known names on that staff in those days (e.g., Bazin, Godard, Rivette, Rohmer, Truffault). The editors picked the top directors of all time, then picked the best film of those directors. Below is their list.

1. Sunrise (Murnau, 1927)
2. The Rules of the Game (Renoir, 1939)
3. Journey to Italy (Rossellini, 1953)
4. Ivan the Terrible (Eisenstein, 1945/1958)
5. Birth of a Nation (Griffith, 1915)
6. Confidential Report/ Mr. Arkadin (Welles, 1956)
7. Ordet (Dreyer, 1955)
8. Ugetsu monogatari (Mizoguchi, 1953)
9. L'Atalante (Vigo, 1934)
10. The Wedding March (Stroheim, 1927)
11. Under Capricorn (Hitchcock, 1949)
12. Monsieur Verdoux (Chaplin, 1947)
I think you'd find that even in those days many many directors & cineastes would have laughed at #'s 6, 11 & 12.
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GringoTex
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#228 Post by GringoTex »

davidhare wrote:Langlois, Im merely trying to balance what you say about the early cahierists - while Truffaut (and Chabrol's) estimation of Under Capricorn may seem ludicrous to some, it does, at least, reveal the specific insights of French critics in responding to expressive mise-en-scene, something that was almost entirely ignored by American critics, and still is. At least in this respect (and for others I would argue) Capricorn is an extremely notable Hitchcock - two four minute plus takes etc, lengthy expository plans-sequences, etc and is far more successful artistically than, say Rope.
I agree that they had every theoretical and polemical reason to prop Capricorn up when they did. But still, it's a shocking lapse in taste. Like I said, they were so uncannily right so much of the time about who the great Hollywood directors really were. These were the guys who sainted Aldrich as an all-time great after only seeing four of his genre films, which to me may be the single greatest feat of film criticism of all time. I would love to give them Capricorn, but I got to call them out.
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domino harvey
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#229 Post by domino harvey »

Godard listed Confidential Report as the best film of the year it was released.
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#230 Post by Anonymous »

Then Godard is an idiot.
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justeleblanc
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:05 pm
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#231 Post by justeleblanc »

domino harvey wrote:Godard listed Confidential Report as the best film of the year it was released.
Where did you find this?
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Brian Oblivious
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#232 Post by Brian Oblivious »

justeleblanc wrote:
domino harvey wrote:Godard listed Confidential Report as the best film of the year it was released.
Where did you find this?
Probably here.
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Cinephrenic
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:58 pm
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#233 Post by Cinephrenic »

Impressive list.
stroszeck
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:42 am

#234 Post by stroszeck »

Well, still waiting to see BIGGER THAN LIFE, ANGEL FACE and DISHONOURED get a DVD release.

Godard has great taste, BTW.
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#235 Post by Anonymous »

dontguess wrote:Then Godard is an idiot.
And Eric Rohmer also wrote an article praising the film. Was he an "idiot" too?
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domino harvey
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#236 Post by domino harvey »

Brian Oblivious wrote:
justeleblanc wrote:
domino harvey wrote:Godard listed Confidential Report as the best film of the year it was released.
Where did you find this?
Probably here.
it's listed in his best of, reprinted from Cahiers in Godard on Godard
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domino harvey
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#237 Post by domino harvey »

that website has a fatal flaw in that it lists the American titles for some of those features, ignoring that in Godard's original list, he's talking about the European releases for these films, which in the case of Confidential Report amounts to a large difference.

anyone with a passing interest in Godard or film crit should pick up Godard on Godard, some of his essays are dizzying in their confusing but infectious enthusiasm.
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arsonfilms
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:53 pm
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#238 Post by arsonfilms »

davidhare wrote:Denti's right. If you keep looking the voice of Robert Arden in particular is out of whack in all three versions. (That's what you get for using radio actors.)
To be fair to Arden though, Welles not only re-dubbed but re-wrote a large part of the film after it had been shot. I suspect it's more noticable with Arden because his character is one of the few that wasn't dubbed by Welles himself. In fact, I believe that Arden is one of only two or three actors in the film who got to use their own voice.
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miless
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:45 am

#239 Post by miless »

arsonfilms wrote:
davidhare wrote:Denti's right. If you keep looking the voice of Robert Arden in particular is out of whack in all three versions. (That's what you get for using radio actors.)
To be fair to Arden though, Welles not only re-dubbed but re-wrote a large part of the film after it had been shot. I suspect it's more noticable with Arden because his character is one of the few that wasn't dubbed by Welles himself. In fact, I believe that Arden is one of only two or three actors in the film who got to use their own voice.
this is true for most of Welles' later films (on The Trial he even dubbed in a few lines for Anthony Perkins... when told he wanted to know which ones were dubbed but Welles refused to tell him and Perkins could never figure it out) Welles truley was a great radio persona, able to do a lot of different voices
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cdnchris
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#240 Post by cdnchris »

Watched this entire set a while ago and have been meaning to come on and talk about some aspects of the film, but forgot what the hell I wanted to talk about.

At any rate, though, I have to say I found the film(s), though a mess, quite fun. I had heard middling things about the film before so never bothered with it, but decided to give it a go when this set was announced. I ended up watching the comprehensive version first and caught myself quite enjoying it. I then watched the Corinth version and actually enjoyed it more (I have to agree with other posters, though, that I'm sure Welles would have cut out some of the inserted scenes, as they almost stop the film and the pacing on the rest of the film was quite quick and to the point) I then viewed the "Confidential Report" version and really just saw it as an interesting alternate take, like the "Love Conquers All" version on the Brazil set (if I had seen it originally I probably would have just dismissed it). Despite some things (the facial hair, Arden, and the strange ending, which I don't feel really worked in any of the versions) I still found the film fun and quite interesting.

And the incredible presentation by Criterion on this set motivated me to actually do it all over a couple of days, much to the dismay of my wife. Excellent set and glad I took a chance on it.
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Brian Oblivious
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#241 Post by Brian Oblivious »

Jonas Mekas in November, 1962 wrote:Mr. Arkadin closed its first run. But the talk is still going around the town. Some say it is great. Others say it is not as good as Citizen Kane or even Touch of Evil. As I see it, what does it matter? When it comes to a true artist, what does it matter if one work is a bit less good than the other? Wouldn't it be ridiculous to reduce Picasso to one great (or perfect) painting or William Carlos Williams to one single perfect poem? What fool would do such a thing? If we can learn anything from all the talk about the author's cinema, it is this: A minor work of a true artist takes an important place in the totality of that artist's life work and must be approached with as much love as his masterpieces. You always have to remember that the artist doesn't exactly need you: it is you who could profit even from his minor work, if you come to it with love. End of sermon.
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quequeg
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:12 am
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#242 Post by quequeg »

Just got around to watching the Corinth Version with commentary by Jonathan Rosenbaum and James Naremore and was very impressed with the commentary. The comments were insightful and well-timed with the film. The only quibble I have is that Mr. Rosenbaum has the annoying habit of using the phrase "you know" quite frequently. Even this did not detract too much from the experience and I learned a lot about Welles and this film.
I had the pleasure to take two film courses taught by James Naremore at Indiana University way back in 1975--76. He is the only professor who I remember after all these years. I wish I could take a course from him again.
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ellipsis7
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#243 Post by ellipsis7 »

Interesting new intro and info by Jonathan Rosenbaum in fresh publication of The Seven Arkadins article in his new collection DISCOVERING ORSON WELLES... Talks of new work coming out of France re. the various versions and the CC commentary on the Corinth version and his liner notes on the other two - apparently Rosenbaum is still revising and reviewing certain of his positions and preferences based on the new work...
When I wrote the liner notes for the Voyager disc of CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (no. 6) in the early 1990's, my assertion in those notes that no. 6 was the second-best version of MR ARKADIN was censored. Roughly 15 years later, when I was commissioned to write liner notes for what I'd previously thought to be the best version (i.e. no 3 (- the Corinth version)) for a DVD box set of ARKADIN released by Criterion, a company that grew out of Voyager - a version that (Francois) Thomas persuaded me may not have been the best after all, at least in all particulars - I wasn't censored about my preferences. but it's amusing to note that in the interests of both clarity and symmetry with the two other versions of ARKADIN included in the box set and their respective liner notes, I was still asked to revised my notes to make them more supportive...
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Magic Hate Ball
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#244 Post by Magic Hate Ball »

I just finished watching the Corinthin version or whatever the first disc is. I got it used for 30 dollars, a really goddamn incredible deal when you see it's 50 dollars everywhere else. Anyways, a great movie, even though I think I'll have to watch it a couple more times to pick up on everything. Some gorgeous (err!, by gorgeous I mean fantastic) cinematography here, even if a lot of it isn't very smooth (it seemed like every shot in Citizen Kane and Touch of Evil [the other two Orson Welles movies I've seen] were made of butter). Also, the flea circus scene was hilarious. "Come on. Allez...allez...oop!"

Edit: Wow, I'm really surprised so many people don't like this film.
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Joe Buck
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#245 Post by Joe Buck »

Not me. I love it. As a Welles fan, I do hear a lot of negativity toward it, and especially it's leading man, but I like it all. The Criterion edition helped make the film more loveable. My favorite part is on the boat, with all that crazy rocking. Amazing shot. Yep, Arkadin is in my top 5 Welles films. =D>
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Magic Hate Ball
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#246 Post by Magic Hate Ball »

Joe Buck wrote:My favorite part is on the boat, with all that crazy rocking.
Oh, god, that scene was incredible. The parts where the camera moved with Welles while the boat room moved around would've given me motion sickness in theaters. Also, this movie has one the most effective "scary low camera angle looking up" shots ever.
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Darth Lavender
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:24 pm

#247 Post by Darth Lavender »

Only had chance to watch the film once (I have the DVD, but that's at home and I'm at university) and found the whole thing immensely enjoyable.

In entertainment terms; absolutely first-rate Welles. Sure, it may not have broken new ground like Citizen Kane or Othello, or had the philosophy of The Trial, but I wouldn't be surprised if this film ends up joining Hellraiser II, La Chute de la Maison Usher and The Animatrix as one of my most-watched DVDs.

Why couldn't the sometimes fun, but too-often dry "F for Fake" be this consistently enjoyable?

"Why do you wear that scary-looking beard?"
"To scare people"
Otaku83
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:07 pm

#248 Post by Otaku83 »

I just finished watching the new Comprehensive version of the film, and I feel that I liked the Corinth version a little better. Of course, I still need to watch Confidential Report in order to see how it is, but I enjoyed the Corinth version quite a bit.

F for Fake is not my favourite Welles' film, but I found myself laughing most of the way through it; it was a very enjoyable film.
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Lino
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#249 Post by Lino »

Joe Dante on the Mr. Arkadin original theatrical trailer, which is not included in the Criterion edition.
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Madadayo
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 4:59 pm

#250 Post by Madadayo »

Arg! Someone fix that recurring and disappearing shadow in the film loop where Raina has her head on the steering wheel for a LONG TIME. Hard to believe Criterion didn't catch that.

Robert Arden (aka Bob Harden) has a memorable scene in Chaplin's A King in New York as well.

Right on, Bob. A classic Welles-in-Exile AND Chaplin-in-Exile film under your belt.

Yes, I know Herr ist Tott, so I'll set my wayback machine and go tell him right now.
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