Charles Mingus: Mingus 68 (Reichman, 1968)

[blindside8zao]

I'm having trouble finding this release. Does anyone know it's DVD history? Anyone know where I could purchase? It looks like I found used copies on amazon.ca but why is it so hard to find one in America?

[Jason]

Although the quality leaves something to be desired, it can be viewed on Google video here. I enjoyed the movie quite a bit when I watched it.

[HerrSchreck]

O god how I adored this film, and worshiped this man in my teens and 20's. I love when he fires the shotgun into the apt he's getting kicked outa (this film you guys are talking about is that film, right?).

THE SHOES OF THE FISHERMANS WIFE ARE SOME JIVE ASS SLIPPERS, MEDITATIONS (for Segregation) from Town Hall Concert.. all his work with Eric Dolphy... the man was a genuine prince among heavily talented men, and an incredible writer to boot (Beneath The Underdog).

[Jason]

O god how I adored this film, and worshiped this man in my teens and 20's. I love when he fires the shotgun into the apt he's getting kicked outa (this film you guys are talking about is that film, right?).

Yes, it's around 18:30 on that google link.

[Gregory]

To me, the craziest thing isn't that he fired the rifle into the ceiling: it's that he did it while his five-year-old daughter was standing around watching, and that he did it with almost no warning that he was about to shoot. He really was at the end of his rope, and I find it a really sad moment to witness. A very brilliant, and erratic, musician. He and Rahsaan Roland Kirk were really a good fit, both musically and personality-wise. By the way, I wonder when that great Montreux performance of Rahsaan's will appear on DVD (the VHS, which I've held onto for years, was The One Man Twins, from Rhino).

Anyway, blindside8zao, that link you provided is to regular Amazon.com, not Amazon.ca. Those Efor DVDs have always been tough to find consistently in the U.S. so I would say go ahead and buy it without holding off for a really good price. Dusty Groove has some of them, but I didn't find the Mingus one there.

[Jason]

Speaking of Rahsaan Roland Kirk, have any of you ever watched the John Cage/Kirk movie Sound?? (1966)? bottom one

I first watched the movie because of Cage, but seeing Kirk play 3 saxes and hand out kazoos is what first turned me onto him. Since then I Talk with the Spirits has hovered around the top of my favorite albums list.

[HerrSchreck]

and the strrrriiiiiitch.

Kirk's rendition of I BELIEVE IN YOU was my hangover-helper during my 20's. It is the very sound of pure unadulterated happiness, and love in bloom in may weather in Central Park. Just listening to it is a shot of pure energy for me.

Very true what Greg says about the deep sadness about that moment in the Mingus film. Mingus was a guy who knew how to bite the distasteful bullet of life for a black man in the times that he lived-- in America-- but the thing to keep in mind was that Mingus was like many geniuses whose minds and emotions were too forceful and overflowing to have "front".. only much more so. Its's impossible to put a pretty face on a volcano. His business was expression, and so even in front of rolling camera, you see him reacting without pr in mind.

Of course by this time he was well established (despite his woes), and was known as a rough around the edges hardass & ex-pimp etc, and knew he could indulge that side of himself, particularly around a middle-class jazz-fan audience. But Charles Mingus was indeed another in a long line of truly sad stories of black geniuses worshipped abroad but ignored or reviled by 85% of his home country. Sick and disgraceful.

[zedz]

I adore this film, and gave it its sole vote on the previous 60s list. It slipped off this time around with so many others mainly because I hadn't been able to see it again, so thanks for the link. Mingus's music is so emotionally rich, joyous and witty that the depiction of his troubled state in this film is wrenching. If such a massive genius can 'slip through the cracks', what hope do the rest of us have?

[HerrSchreck]

O but his music is very much alive today-- Mingus will never die. His music is as important as anyone's in the hardbop era, (and I daresay in the classical realm) and his more complex compositions and use of arrangement and unique integration of classical/modern/avant counterpoint pointed the way for so much modern music, from Zappa to Boulez to dudes like Henry Threadgill. Like Billie Holliday and Parker-- to be very obvious in the "legend" category-- his life was not the most pleasant... but he achieved an enormous amout of recognition in his time (within his realm), and is truly an immortal. Go to any Barnes & Noble and look at the size of the Mingus rack. Much bigger than most white pop acts. Quadruple the size I'd say. Not the most bedrock cultural thermometer, but in these shakey times of the life of the Storebought CD, a good indicator that Mingus is doing fine.

[zedz]

Oh I know his music and legacy are doing fine. By "falling through the cracks" I was talking about his unsupported day-to-day existence in the film. It should have been obvious by the late sixties that the guy was a major American composer, and there should have been foundations etc. banging down his door with offers of lucrative commissions or other funding for his ventures. Instead, we get the police banging down his door while he's barricaded inside with a shotgun. You don't even get a sense of a strong personal support network for the guy.

[denti alligator]

Sometimes I think Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is the only record I'll ever really need. It satisfies so many of my musical longings. Could it get any better than this?

[Chull]

Sometimes I think Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is the only record I'll ever really need. It satisfies so many of my musical longings. Could it get any better than this?

Not much.

I remember reading a quote of his, stating that he didn't like albums without a great deal of variety. As he said, if he owned a bunch of Picassos, he wouldn't want a room full of only blue-periods, or cubists, but rather a cross-section. I never really agreed with this, and I find it interesting, because this album is my favorite of his, and the most homogeneous (for lack of a better word) that I've heard. Especially compared to something like Mingus Ah Um - also a brilliant album.

[zedz]

I'm more in the Ah Um and Atlantic all-over-the-place club than the Black Saint one, but I wouldn't want to do without either.

Apart from the Reichman, are people aware of any other strong film records of Mingus in action?

[blindside8zao]

I'm an amateur listener but Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is by far my favorite jazz CD.

Thanks a lot for the link.

[Gregory]

Live at Montreux 1975 is excellent. Mingus was no spring chicken at this time but he still had enough health and vitality to lead an excellent band (cf the Changes One and Changes Two albums from around the same time). Like all the great bandleader/composers of the tradition he was good at highlighting each player's sound and creative proclivities and allowing them room to improvise. Those who dislike Mingus's more "outside" work might want to skip this one. It can be found for around $10, and is a real steal. There were a few problems with the audio recording, as with a number of his live dates. But with so few of his concerts captured on film, in whole or part, who can complain?

There's a newer DVD, too, from the Jazz Icons series, that captures several moments from his historic European tour in '64 before leaving Dolphy behind. Anyone who has the Great Concert album knows how incredible these performances were. I haven't picked this one up yet, and I wanted to do so during the upcoming DD sale but they don't carry it, nor do they carry the Montreux DVD. Their selection of out-of-the-way titles seems to have gotten worse and worse over time. I've tried emailing them to request they carry something, and they just reply (automatically, it seems) that the item has been discontinued, even when I know it hasn't.

I haven't seen many of these Jazz Icons discs yet (I bought the Monk one) but they seem like a wonderful thing, and the series seems to be going strong -- two box sets worth of DVDs already.

[Lemmy Caution]

I watched the Reichman film through the interweb, and it is sad and fascinating. Would love to find a dvd copy.

As for the popularity of Charles Mingus, I hear Mingus nearly everywhere I go in China ... but that probably has something to do with my MP3 player.

Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is about the only Mingus I don't get into. Part of the problem is that it was recommended to me when I was in 11th grade and wanted to first hear me some Mingus. That record set me back from getting into Mingus by nearly 3 years. But now I've been a Mingus fan for two decades and I still never can get involved with Black Saint. And I'm a big enough Mingus fan that I go around whistling Fables of Faubus.

I picked up a few of those Jazz Icon Dvd's, but didn't know there was a Mingus disc in the series. Thanks for that. Something to look for. So far I have Louis, Sarah and Ella in that series, all in concert from the late 50's/early 60's. If anyone is interested, I can check the quality. I just picked them up last week. Nice covers.

[HerrSchreck]

Yea I've had BLACK SAINT for a good 20 years now and I rarely pull it out. My all time favorite is the TOWN HALL CONCERT with Eric Dolphy (because of MEDITAIONS also known as PRAYING WITH ERIC also known as MEDITATIONS FOR SEGREGATION or MEDITATIONS FOR A PAIR OF WIRE CUTTERS). I have the wonderful LET MY CHILDREN HEAR MUSIC with The I of Hurricane Sue, and Don't Be Afraid, The Clown's Afraid Too, and the great SHoes Of The Fishermans Wife(...). FABLES OF FAUBUS another fave album too.

Goodbye porkpie hat.

[blindside8zao]

To be honest I'm in the opposite category. I've been listening to Black Saint as my first Mingus album and don't know where to go yet. I understand he didn't really do much else like it. I think i can get ahold of that Mingus/Dolphy live disc and I love Dolphy, so maybe that's a good place to go next.

[HerrSchreck]

I've been listening to Black Saint as my first Mingus album and don't know where to go yet. I understand he didn't really do much else like it.

Someone steered you VERY wrong. There's a LOT of stuff like that (unless you mean something other than the compositions for larger sized groups, with lots of starts & stops, great sarcasm, tempo/time changes, lots of invention, arrangements for wind instruments mimicking speech patterns and other avant and modern/classical fashionings, thrown in with that great Mingus genius for an utterly unique and brilliant end result.)

[Gregory]

It's different in that it's an extended suite of pieces that relate to and elaborate on each other. Of course his most ambitious piece of all is the one posthumously premiered (and released on CD) as Epitaph. Black Saint is also the only Mingus work I know of that was supposedly composed as dance music. I'm not sure that it was ever performed with dancers, though.
For me, no album surpasses the heights of The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady. I don't think it's totally distinct from the rest of his creative output, though, and I personally find that it exemplifies all the most important things that made his music vital.
I have a question, though. The first track is usually subtitled as "Stop! Look! and Listen, sinner Jim Whitney!" But on the label of the original vinyl release, it's written as "Whitey." I figure this was a misprint, but in Pollack's liner notes he interprets the piece as being a plea to racist whites for tolerance or something along those lines, so part of me wonders. Plus, "Jim" was jazz-subculture vernacular for an uptight, square person or someone who represents the establishment (I remember reading that it might have been derived from "Jim Crow") so that would also fit with "Whitey." Anyone have a clue who "Jim Whitney" might have been?

I picked up a few of those Jazz Icon Dvd's ... If anyone is interested, I can check the quality. I just picked them up last week. Nice covers.

I would be interested in your comments on them. I have a lot of confidence in the line already, though, just from seeing how excellent the picture quality is on the Thelonious Monk disc I have from the series. I also like that they release these with the cooperation of the musicians or their estates, and that some of the proceeds go to music education campaigns.

[HerrSchreck]

As to it's being titled SOLO/GROUP/DUET DANCERS etc, I see this, in terms of his aesthetic, as an incidental to the rest of his output ("Music for dancing and listening"). A detail specific to this piece if you will, but not significant in terms of "this is a style of composition in BLACK SAINT that you will find no place else throughout his canon".. no way!

If you listen to the work immediately following it grew yet more dense and avant.. and impressive to my mind. (and my Impulse vinyl lp has the "Whitney" not Whitey). You get immediately to his work with Eric Dolphy which thematically and structurally bears the same Mingus stmp and style-- the same wrenching emotion and flying structure, contrasted with the jive ass stops and starts, etc. You get to FAUBUS, you get to THE SHOES OF THE FISHERMANS WIFE which was composed 2 years later in 65 for Newport that year, but it never came about. The man absolutely continued along in the same musical vein, devloping and expanding upon his ideas as his lineups and money permitted (a crucial issue, which is why he adored Eric so much, because of his ability to play bass clarinet, alto, and flute, not to mention his breathtaking faciltity and originality, added to Mingus' ability to realize his ideas in composition and improv).

Listen to THE CHILL OF DEATH, the I OF HURRICANE SUE, DONT BE AFRAID, FABLES, MEDITATIONS, HOBO HO... these are all very much going to satisfy the soul looking for more material along the lines of BLACK SAINT. The orchestration, the avant stylings, the classical-modern arrangements, the deep soul and wrenching ache... its all there and its all Mingus at his most fully realized, fully financed in other words.

Its hard to get big bands to rehearse and play such difficult stuff for no money. Harder still to get record co's to produce and release it. It's what killed, for a silly example, Blood Sweat & Tears right after their big success in 69 w SPINNING WHEEL & AND WHEN I DIE. Those horn players bolted because they just werent making any money in such a large band... and they had a couple chart toppers back2 baCK!

[Gregory]

Again, I agree that it's not totally distinct creatively from his other work as a composer/arranger. It's different only in scale and perhaps a few structural elements but definitely not different in style. The recording techniques were new to the music, specifically the mixture of creative editing and overdubbing. But these facilitated an extension of Mingus's ideas rather than marking a break in them, so we're probably more or less in agreement.
As for the spelling of the name, I should have been more explicit: mine says "Whitney" the jacket but "Whitey" on the actual record. I think my copy is a first pressing from back when Impulse was still using that kind of clear plastic coating on the jacket that usually begins to peel after a while (Note: I'm really not a record geek in the sense of being able to identify first pressings of things, I've always just cared about the music, but someone once pointed this peely laminate stuff being characteristic of the early Impulse albums.) They may have changed the spelling on subsequent pressings. But I wondered what Mingus meant it to say. After all, this album package was less than assiduous (for example they spelled Jaki Byard's name wrong on the jacket of my copy -- not sure how long it took them to correct that).

[HerrSchreck]

I think they stuck w the same plates. I'm not at home w my collection at the moment but I distinctly recall after pulling it out that they called Jaki Jackie, which I thought was funny.

[zedz]

Well, thanks to this thread I dragged out 'Black Saint' for the first time in years last night, so thanks all. I think I might be going on a Mingus bender now.

[HerrSchreck]

There's quite a bit of fantastic Mingus footage on the web, including the 64 lineup with Eric Dolphy.

Here's a full hourlong concert in Norway, cut into six or seven bits. Just follow the urls after you go thru this first.

At one time on youtube the full cut of this take of MEDITATIONS (for Segregation/for a pair of wire cutters/aka "Praying With Eric") was available, but I'm having trouble finding it now. There were actually a couple of complete takes of the song.

Since we're on the subjects of gods playing w god Eric Dolphy, I went thru such a huge phaze with this particular take of Coltrane's rendition of My Favorite Things w Eric, it haunted me day and night and afternoon for about a year. The way Coltrane flips so deeply and easily between major and pentatonic (minor) scales, yet flows so easily where one is so clearly an emotional expansion of the former.. the song reaches such sublime technical and emotional (and innovational) hieghts it's just sublime. And the integration between Elvin Jones, Tyner, and JC is just beyond magical.

To keep this focus alive and thriving, I'm going to create a Jazz On DVD thread, to keep the news of past present and future releases going.