I think the words "with English subtitles" should have been thrown into the mix at some point.Nuno wrote:Hum, not exactly....Luke M wrote:...and being the first in the world to release it would be a very good thing.
25 Vampyr
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MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
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Cold Bishop
- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:45 am
- Location: Portland, OR
And "correct aspect ratio"MichaelB wrote:I think the words "with English subtitles" should have been thrown into the mix at some point.Nuno wrote:Hum, not exactly....Luke M wrote:...and being the first in the world to release it would be a very good thing.
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HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm
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Ledos
- Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:05 am
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SoyCuba
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:30 pm
- Location: Finland
Maybe Criterion hasn't done this (or in a way they have by releasing non-anamorphic DVDs in their early days), but for example Warner did exactly this with BLADE RUNNER, and I haven't heard people criticizing too much about giving the people that have so eagerly waited for a better DVD a chance to get it before the definitive edition.HerrSchreck wrote:Yes CC has upgraded titles but I don't think they ever released a title already knowing it was going to be superceded.
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HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm
Explain what you mean. The new cut just became available, the previous directors cut was the "official" release for years which they never upgraded (EDIT: OK I saw the limited release remastering of the old VHS transfer on the beev... probably as a collectors item before the VERSION gets superceded... something I wish they would have done with the WARRIORS before the FILM ITSELF was changed, like they did here w BLADE R). Now-- if my recollection of what their plans are is correct-- they're going to release the "final" cut by itself, then in a box set for collectors with the other two previous cuts of the film. That's just a different presentation of the same disc, either alone or in a box set for collectors.
But this is a studio releasing their own films, who fuck around with their audience all the time "collectors edition", "limited eds" ect. And there are different versions of the film involved, one of which was being put down for the count, being superceded. You know this is not a similar situation at all.
CC, MOC, BFI, Kino, Milestone, etc do something entirely different and charge far higher prices for "definitive" editions of films that are not still being tinkered with by directors, that are supposed to be as close to the "last word" on the film as is possible at the time of their release. It is essentially their mission statement, and this I daresay is why Nick is asking you if you'd buy if he "broke tradition" so to speak (or would you get haughty and say Screw that jack I'm waiting for the CC, which is this forums mantra.)
Listen, I wouldn't criticise them no matter what they did, but others might. I'd probably be the first to pre-order their VAMPYR... but those who think that in UK DVD territory that a run of pre-orders and six months business on a title (as some were saying, that even if it were trumped by a CC this quick, this amount of time would still generate an ROI over costs) would be enough to cover costs and see black ink... are verging on naiive. I'm thinking as if I were Nick W & Cummings et al, behind closed doors and out of earshot of the slavering "Gimme Gimme Gimme" masses. Of course I & everyone else want to see the film properly ASAP. But they have to wiegh more than just that simple fact before jumping. Their is their reputation versus reviewers, the mission of the co, the possibility of taking a loss, etc.
(Some may remember the BFI's situation on their very first release of THE MAN WITH THE MOVIE CAMERA. The print they used was filled with so much damage and crap that it was considered a gaffe on a par with Shepards VAMPYR. Now, I could imagine that since that was the first release of the Vertov a lot of folks dying to see the film would have been clambering "We don't care-- pleeaaassse release this important classic!", but the critical reception was terrible, and the thing was yanked. I believe they're now using the print used by the US/Image release from an Eastman House nitrate, which I think is the same one on the Kino (Nyman).)
But this is a studio releasing their own films, who fuck around with their audience all the time "collectors edition", "limited eds" ect. And there are different versions of the film involved, one of which was being put down for the count, being superceded. You know this is not a similar situation at all.
CC, MOC, BFI, Kino, Milestone, etc do something entirely different and charge far higher prices for "definitive" editions of films that are not still being tinkered with by directors, that are supposed to be as close to the "last word" on the film as is possible at the time of their release. It is essentially their mission statement, and this I daresay is why Nick is asking you if you'd buy if he "broke tradition" so to speak (or would you get haughty and say Screw that jack I'm waiting for the CC, which is this forums mantra.)
Listen, I wouldn't criticise them no matter what they did, but others might. I'd probably be the first to pre-order their VAMPYR... but those who think that in UK DVD territory that a run of pre-orders and six months business on a title (as some were saying, that even if it were trumped by a CC this quick, this amount of time would still generate an ROI over costs) would be enough to cover costs and see black ink... are verging on naiive. I'm thinking as if I were Nick W & Cummings et al, behind closed doors and out of earshot of the slavering "Gimme Gimme Gimme" masses. Of course I & everyone else want to see the film properly ASAP. But they have to wiegh more than just that simple fact before jumping. Their is their reputation versus reviewers, the mission of the co, the possibility of taking a loss, etc.
(Some may remember the BFI's situation on their very first release of THE MAN WITH THE MOVIE CAMERA. The print they used was filled with so much damage and crap that it was considered a gaffe on a par with Shepards VAMPYR. Now, I could imagine that since that was the first release of the Vertov a lot of folks dying to see the film would have been clambering "We don't care-- pleeaaassse release this important classic!", but the critical reception was terrible, and the thing was yanked. I believe they're now using the print used by the US/Image release from an Eastman House nitrate, which I think is the same one on the Kino (Nyman).)
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Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:09 pm
Thing is that the BFI's horrible version of the Vertov is STILL available, together with the newer disc with the Nyman music. The only good thing about the old disc is that Tsivian audio commentary (which almost led me to keep it next to the new arte). But whereas that old Vertov disc indeed is an abominable crime, clearly any version of "Vampyr" put out by MoC will not receive any bad criticisms remotely comparable to those which justly greeted that BFI disc. The Koerber resto as it is now wouldn't endanger their mission statement at all in my view. It certainly looks better than the current states "Scandal" or "Silence" are in, at least if you consider the age and the troubled history of "Vampyr".
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akaten
This sounds abit like the "Marketa" situation, which was made out to be a travesty when the existing print is (from MichaelB's screengrabs) of a very good quality considering the market size for films of this nature, and the budget available to a tiny UK company.
Isn't the other danger is in assuming Criterion are going to restore it fully, or aren't themselves having to make difficult decisions over what to release. Wouldn't it be worthwhile for someone (who knows what they are talking about) to contact them, explaining the issue of the prints, asking if they can reveal what approach Criterion shall take with Vampyr.
It seems as if we're now at the stage where we unrealistically expect, demand even that small DVD companies initiate costly restorations...
The other thing to consider is that a release now will revive/generate interest in a film, making a restoration all the more likely down the line. Finally aren't there any Danish companies, be it DVD or restoration foundations interested in Dreyer with which to share the burden of cost so to speak.
P.S: I still like the idea of using proceeds/profits to fund a new restoration, consumer input may not amount to much but at least it would get the ball rolling, and an article in the booklet could raise awareness of what needs to be done.
Isn't the other danger is in assuming Criterion are going to restore it fully, or aren't themselves having to make difficult decisions over what to release. Wouldn't it be worthwhile for someone (who knows what they are talking about) to contact them, explaining the issue of the prints, asking if they can reveal what approach Criterion shall take with Vampyr.
It seems as if we're now at the stage where we unrealistically expect, demand even that small DVD companies initiate costly restorations...
The other thing to consider is that a release now will revive/generate interest in a film, making a restoration all the more likely down the line. Finally aren't there any Danish companies, be it DVD or restoration foundations interested in Dreyer with which to share the burden of cost so to speak.
P.S: I still like the idea of using proceeds/profits to fund a new restoration, consumer input may not amount to much but at least it would get the ball rolling, and an article in the booklet could raise awareness of what needs to be done.
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MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
I'm hoping to upload superior grabs very soon - I now have a copy of the final disc, and I should hopefully have a copy of the Leopard-compatible Snapz Pro framegrabbing software imminently. I'm just checking with the software company that my five-year-old registration key is still valid.akaten wrote:This sounds abit like the "Marketa" situation, which was made out to be a travesty when the existing print is (from MichaelB's screengrabs) of a very good quality considering the market size for films of this nature, and the budget available to a tiny UK company.
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SoyCuba
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:30 pm
- Location: Finland
True, the situation certainly isn't exactly the same, but what I was trying to say is that I can't see how MoC's actions could at least be seen any worse than what Warner is doing with BLADE RUNNER. Also, the remastered director's DVD of Blade runner was released on 4 September 2006, which is over a year sooner than the release of the box set/final cut (18 December 2007). I'm also sure they would have released a remastered version sooner if it wasn't for the rights issues. In this case Warner released the barebones restored version when everyone knew that a better version was to be released later. Sure, major studios do this type of thing all the time: first they release a barebones DVD and then a special edition, but I suspect there's a bit more than just that in this case as so many people must have complained about the quality of the original release.HerrSchreck wrote:Explain what you mean. The new cut just became available, the previous directors cut was the "official" release for years which they never upgraded (EDIT: OK I saw the limited release remastering of the old VHS transfer on the beev... probably as a collectors item before the VERSION gets superceded... something I wish they would have done with the WARRIORS before the FILM ITSELF was changed, like they did here w BLADE R). Now-- if my recollection of what their plans are is correct-- they're going to release the "final" cut by itself, then in a box set for collectors with the other two previous cuts of the film. That's just a different presentation of the same disc, either alone or in a box set for collectors.
But this is a studio releasing their own films, who fuck around with their audience all the time "collectors edition", "limited eds" ect. And there are different versions of the film involved, one of which was being put down for the count, being superceded. You know this is not a similar situation at all.
Anyway, In the same way in my opinion it would be perfectly okay to release a barebones DVD of the latest VAMPYR restoration and announce that an improved edition would be released later, if possible. And as many have already noted, it wouldn't have to be a MoC release, it could be a (possibly limited) Eureka release.
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HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm
I don't think that's true-- the bfi pulled the original release... I'm trying to find the reviews and articles going back to this point but it's all pretty old and I can't find it. The issue wasn't the transfer, but the print used. The prints on the Nyman and Alloy editions are the same. I believe the Alloy edition , which uses the same print/transfer as the US release, (the Eastman House print and the same Tsivian commentary/Alloy Orch) was an upgrade from the original edition which was pulled from circulation years ago.Tommaso wrote:Thing is that the BFI's horrible version of the Vertov is STILL available, together with the newer disc with the Nyman music. The only good thing about the old disc is that Tsivian audio commentary (which almost led me to keep it next to the new arte). But whereas that old Vertov disc indeed is an abominable crime, clearly any version of "Vampyr" put out by MoC will not receive any bad criticisms remotely comparable to those which justly greeted that BFI disc. The Koerber resto as it is now wouldn't endanger their mission statement at all in my view. It certainly looks better than the current states "Scandal" or "Silence" are in, at least if you consider the age and the troubled history of "Vampyr".
The whole BLADE RUNNER thing is way out in left field.
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SoyCuba
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:30 pm
- Location: Finland
The old BFI of THE MAN WITH A MOVIE CAMERA release of actually is still available and the new edition seems to be the one that is harder to get at least at the moment (out of stock on Play and not available for ordering on amazon.uk).
Just forget my ramblings about BLADE RUNNER
All I'm saying is that if Eureka gets a bad name for releasing the latest restoration of a movie with only horrible quality english friendly DVDs at the present that could look even better, then I have to question people's ridiculously high expectations towards the image quality for a movie with so marginal an audience released by a small company. There just isn't any justification for expecting a NOSFERATU-level restoration for a movie that is far less known. And besides, the 1999 restoration doesn't look bad at all. Not all of the MoC titles look perfect anyway, so I can't see that they would badly "break their tradition" by releasing this as it is. They wouldn't have to ask full price for it either. Still, I can see how releasing a movie with somewhat lower quality than normally could create bad press and this is why it could be released outside of MoC-series as a Eureka title. There could be also a possibility of starting a series camparable of Criterion's Eclipse. VAMPYR could be part of it and then people would know not to expect quite the same quality.
I'm happy that Second Run decided to Release MARKETA LAZAROVA even if the quality may not be optimal and I suspect that those who haven't seen VAMPYR yet will be equally happy if Eureka releases it. And I would certainly buy it as well as I would very much like to see it again (and I'm not buying the Image release, although I propably would have if I hadn't seen the movie on TV).
Just forget my ramblings about BLADE RUNNER
All I'm saying is that if Eureka gets a bad name for releasing the latest restoration of a movie with only horrible quality english friendly DVDs at the present that could look even better, then I have to question people's ridiculously high expectations towards the image quality for a movie with so marginal an audience released by a small company. There just isn't any justification for expecting a NOSFERATU-level restoration for a movie that is far less known. And besides, the 1999 restoration doesn't look bad at all. Not all of the MoC titles look perfect anyway, so I can't see that they would badly "break their tradition" by releasing this as it is. They wouldn't have to ask full price for it either. Still, I can see how releasing a movie with somewhat lower quality than normally could create bad press and this is why it could be released outside of MoC-series as a Eureka title. There could be also a possibility of starting a series camparable of Criterion's Eclipse. VAMPYR could be part of it and then people would know not to expect quite the same quality.I'm happy that Second Run decided to Release MARKETA LAZAROVA even if the quality may not be optimal and I suspect that those who haven't seen VAMPYR yet will be equally happy if Eureka releases it. And I would certainly buy it as well as I would very much like to see it again (and I'm not buying the Image release, although I propably would have if I hadn't seen the movie on TV).
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HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm
Ach mein freund-- the Nyman is the 2002 release which is on the Kino/Nyman, which trumped bfi's Alloy/Tsivian 2000 release, which dupes the USA Image/Blackhawk release that uses the American Eastman House print. My understanding fyi was that the bfi did not originally use this Eastman print-- they used a print which was filled with nitrate decomp that outraged reviewers; they pulled the release and the 2000 Alloy/Tsivian duping the R1 was the result. None of this decomp, none of this notoriously terrible print is on the editions shown on the beev caps/comp. That print was put to bed.
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Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:09 pm
I'm not really sure about this. I originally bought the Alloy/BFI at around 2004 (new from amazon, not an old disc via ebay), and while I didn't see any nitrate decomposition, the disc mainly suffered from the following problems: extreme NTSC/PAL-conversion issues (ghosting, heavy chroma noise, extremely wobbly image), burnt-in yellow and blue subtitles not only on the title cards but also on the images themselves (explaining for example some writings in shop windows). I don't know whether that perhaps already came from a different print than when it came out in 2000, but in any case it looked totally horrible. And that edition is definitely still available (mentioned in the latest BFI catalogue I received a short while ago).
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Cinetwist
- Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:00 am
- Location: England
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Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:09 pm
I never understood why they didn't ditch that disc when they had the new Nyman score and the new transfer ready. It would have been ideal to simply re-issue the disc with the updated image of the Nyman disc, but with all three scores (Nyman together with the Alloy and ITN) plus of course the audio commentary. I think they wanted to make a big seller with the name of Nyman and were fully aware that his score is much inferior to the two others. Thankfully at least the ITN score is now available on the excellent German arte/absolut medien disc. But I still want the commentary back....
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ltfontaine
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:34 pm
I hope MoC proceeds with release of this film now rather than defer to an HD release in 2011. The likely commercial impact of an impending parallel Criterion release is surely a serious consideration, but I'm confident that no company will match the degree of care that MoC will invest in this title.
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lubitsch
- Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:20 pm
I'm now buying MAN MOVIE CAMERA for the uni and in fact I'm buying the OLD disc. There's the commentary and I love the Alloy score. Ridiculous situation, really.Tommaso wrote:I never understood why they didn't ditch that disc when they had the new Nyman score and the new transfer ready. It would have been ideal to simply re-issue the disc with the updated image of the Nyman disc, but with all three scores (Nyman together with the Alloy and ITN) plus of course the audio commentary. I think they wanted to make a big seller with the name of Nyman and were fully aware that his score is much inferior to the two others. Thankfully at least the ITN score is now available on the excellent German arte/absolut medien disc. But I still want the commentary back....
As for VAMPYR get it out now. I'm German, so I could have gotten the French disc but waited for the correct aspect ratio and some English friendly extras. The film draws arthouse crowds and horror fans, so it should bring its money back.
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HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm
The R1 of Vertov's MAN W is probably a better rendition of the transfer of the same excellent print, but without conversion issues (it's a native NTSC transfer bfi glommed to replace the initial decomp-damaged disaster which they pulled), but nowhere near the chroma, but maintains the Alloy and Tsivian. Very worth your while and a better candidate for the print/extras you're looking for in the region of origin. If you haven't placed your order yet, go with the R1 from Image Entertainment. Seriously!
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HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm
I believe the print is the same, but the transfer on the Kino may be a little bit newer (and probably either the source for-- or a port of-- the second bfi w Michael Nyman) than the Image ent transfer. I've never seen the Image (which I have and feel no need to replace until a fully restored hi-def comes down the pike w mass extras) laid side by side with anything, or even had caps pulled from it. I just know it has no conversion issues, is not so heavily laden w chroma, like it's overseas twin from bfi. Remember there are 2 bfi's available right now... the older one which ported the Image/Blackhawk from R1 (which was the initial replacement from their initial disaster supposedly loaded with tons of damage) but which still suffers from age (versus today) and some conversion artifacts.... and the newer one with a much cleaner looking transfer featuring the Nyman score (which is a dupe of the Kino or vice versa)... that definitely looks better than the other bfi disc available right now, but I've never seen the R1 Kino compared w the R1 Image/Blackhawk. If you're choosing one I'd say go with Lubitsch's taste, but get the better--native-- edition of this transfer of that glorious eastman house original nitrate which is totally free of damage... and the sublime Tsivian commentary. The score is okay, I'm just not the biggest fan of Alloy. I could throw my own pots and pans around the kitchen throw a fit for effect too...
Like the horrible elementary school joke about How do you know Chinese are always dropping pots'n shit inna kitchen? They name their kids ping pang bong ching pong yadda. Same way one could turn it How do you know Chinese dig the Alloy Orchestra? They....
Like the horrible elementary school joke about How do you know Chinese are always dropping pots'n shit inna kitchen? They name their kids ping pang bong ching pong yadda. Same way one could turn it How do you know Chinese dig the Alloy Orchestra? They....
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lubitsch
- Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:20 pm
You're probably right, I give it a try, thanks.HerrSchreck wrote:The R1 of Vertov's MAN W is probably a better rendition of the transfer of the same excellent print, but without conversion issues (it's a native NTSC transfer bfi glommed to replace the initial decomp-damaged disaster which they pulled), but nowhere near the chroma, but maintains the Alloy and Tsivian. Very worth your while and a better candidate for the print/extras you're looking for in the region of origin. If you haven't placed your order yet, go with the R1 from Image Entertainment. Seriously!
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jsteffe
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:00 pm
- Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: VAMPYR
I know a decision like this must be tough, but I say release the DVD. I will certainly order a copy each for myself and for my library, and there are quite a few people who have been aching for years for something better than that Image R1 disc with the ghastly subtitles.
Yes, down the road you could do a new transfer based on a digital restoration, but who is going to pay for that?
In the meantime, many people would love to own an English-friendly edition of the Koerber restoration, which still looks vastly better than anything else that's been available before. The fact that you also have a 1.19:1 transfer makes it stand out all the more from the other versions on the market.
If, in the future, you're fortunate enough to have an opportunity to release an upgraded edition, you can find a way to make that package attractive enough so people won't mind repurchasing. I was deliriously happy to get Criterion's new SEVEN SAMURAI despite already owning the older version, for example.
The bottom line: you already have something really valuable to offer, and you don't need to make any apologies for it being what it is.
I know a decision like this must be tough, but I say release the DVD. I will certainly order a copy each for myself and for my library, and there are quite a few people who have been aching for years for something better than that Image R1 disc with the ghastly subtitles.
Yes, down the road you could do a new transfer based on a digital restoration, but who is going to pay for that?
In the meantime, many people would love to own an English-friendly edition of the Koerber restoration, which still looks vastly better than anything else that's been available before. The fact that you also have a 1.19:1 transfer makes it stand out all the more from the other versions on the market.
If, in the future, you're fortunate enough to have an opportunity to release an upgraded edition, you can find a way to make that package attractive enough so people won't mind repurchasing. I was deliriously happy to get Criterion's new SEVEN SAMURAI despite already owning the older version, for example.
The bottom line: you already have something really valuable to offer, and you don't need to make any apologies for it being what it is.
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Ledos
- Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:05 am
I think peerpee's original request was for opinions on whether to release it soon with no digital restoration, or sometime later with digital restoration (and not so much whether to release it in 2011 or later with a completely new film restoration - a very hypothetical option anyway).
But to answer that question properly I think we need to know how much improvement a digital restoration can offer for this film and how long it will postpone the release.
I do think however that for Eureka to wait too long will be shooting themselves in the foot.
But to answer that question properly I think we need to know how much improvement a digital restoration can offer for this film and how long it will postpone the release.
I do think however that for Eureka to wait too long will be shooting themselves in the foot.