25 Vampyr

Discuss releases by Eureka and Masters of Cinema and the films on them
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Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:09 pm

#126 Post by Tommaso »

Briefly on Vertov again, in case you missed it: brand new Beaver comparison here.
The German arte/absolut medien is the clear winner, although Gary doesn't compare the Image release together with the other four discs. I also find the disc looks quite stunning.
Lubitsch, as you're German: if you actually work for a German university, your students might get a lot of value from the excellent 90 min. documentary which is on it. Not necessarily a replacement for Tsivian, but some very interesting interviews with some collaborators of Vertov and excerpts from other Vertov films, including the late Stalin film "Lullaby". In any case I'd assume one needs more than one disc of the film to get a full variety of soundtracks and information.

Thanks, btw, to the Mods for putting the Vampyr discussion back to the right thread, but I guess we need another one for Vertov, too :wink:
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Kinsayder
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#127 Post by Kinsayder »

There's a Dziga Vertov thread right here.
kekid
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#128 Post by kekid »

Ledos wrote:I think peerpee's original request was for opinions on whether to release it soon with no digital restoration, or sometime later with digital restoration (and not so much whether to release it in 2011 or later with a completely new film restoration - a very hypothetical option anyway).

But to answer that question properly I think we need to know how much improvement a digital restoration can offer for this film and how long it will postpone the release.

I do think however that for Eureka to wait too long will be shooting themselves in the foot.
I would like to give my point of view on whether MoC should wait for a full digital restoration to release the DVD of Vampyr.
From a selfish point of view, the answer would be an easy "yes". I do not want to wait for several more years. However, let us analyze the decision objectively. Consumers of this DVD can be divided into four categories: (1) Those who will neither buy it now nor after a restoration. These are the folks who have likely never heard of Dreyer. (2) Those who will buy it now, and upgrade it when the restored DVD gets eventually released. These are the committed (and rich) consumers. (3) Those who will refrain from buying now and wait for the restored version to show up. Finally (4) Those who will buy now and will not upgrade when the restored version shows up. The consumers in the first and second category do not affect the decision in question. Hence the decision depends upon a subjective estimate of the size of the third category vs the fourth one. In my judgment, far more people are likely to jump at the first decent version of this film than those who will wait patiently for years. Hence the right decision would be to release it now.
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NABOB OF NOWHERE
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#129 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE »

Kekid is Edward de Bono and I claim the five pound prize!
Last edited by NABOB OF NOWHERE on Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ltfontaine
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#130 Post by ltfontaine »

kekid wrote:In my judgment, far more people are likely to jump at the first decent version of this film than those who will wait patiently for years. Hence the right decision would be to release it now.
I don't pretend to understand all of the factors weighing in MoC's decision about Vampyr, but agree with kedid's assessment that there are many people eagerly awaiting a decent version of this film, and who will buy a substantially improved rendering even if the presentation is less than immaculate. Does Vampyr—an immeasurably rich film by the one of the greatest artists in the history of cinema—really command less interest than some of the other classics entering the market in less than perfect condition?

On the other hand, we regularly see on this forum evidence that many discriminating DVD buyers, presumably including much of the audience for Vampyr, will defer buying even a great film on disc if the quality is less than Criterion-perfect. Markéta Lazarová, The Red and the White, and others from Second Run; the essential Chinese Classics releases from Koch Lorber; the very fine Japanese silents from Digital Meme; much of the Kino catalogue; and Criterion's own Eclipse releases of late Ozu, have all come in for more than their share of naysaying, even though the most likely alternatives (excepting the Ozu films, and maybe some of the Kinos) would have been no home video release at all.

This way lies madness. Surely there are indifferent releases from heavily capitalized companies that register like an insult to the buyer, and others, even from smaller outfits, so compromised in quality that they do not justify their exorbitant prices (Facets). But it's folly to withhold support from companies struggling to make these films available in improved versions, or to simply make them available.

If release of an improved Vampyr, enhanced with substantial supplements, is postponed for four years--
peerpee wrote:Which would mean scrapping the work we've done so far -- scrapping the new HD transfer of Koerber's 1999 film restoration, and trying to get (massive) funding for a new film restoration based on Koerber's 1999 work, ie. you're looking at a BluRay release in 2011 at the earliest.
--then bloated market expectations for flawless presentation of often fragile film elements is extracting too high a price from niche companies and consumers.
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MichaelB
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#131 Post by MichaelB »

ltfontaine wrote:On the other hand, we regularly see on this forum evidence that many discriminating DVD buyers, presumably including much of the audience for Vampyr, will defer buying even a great film on disc if the quality is less than Criterion-perfect. Markéta Lazarová, The Red and the White, and others from Second Run.
Just to be absolutely clear, the transfer of Marketa Lazarová (one of Second Run's best) is much, much better than The Red and the White (one of their worst) - the two really shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. But that's still part of the problem - "very good" isn't the same as "perfect", which means that there are bound to be nitpickers.

I think part of the problem is that obsessive film buffs rarely pay that much heed to economic factors - which is fair enough: they probably don't worry that much about supermarket logistics either. When I ran a repertory cinema getting stopped by people in the foyer with nitpicky complaints was an occupational hazard - they wanted to know why we'd left out such-and-such an "obvious" title from a season (as though I hadn't spent months trying to track down a print) or why I hadn't rejected a less than wonderful print out of hand (because it was literally the only bookable one in the country, and the alternative would have been not screening it at all), or why we'd shown an obscure rarity on a Wednesday afternoon instead of a Saturday night (go on, have a wild guess).

Back then, though, people were prepared to put up with a lot more than seems to be the case now. We showed some frankly dreadful prints - I recall one of Clouzot's Le Corbeau that looked like Pixelvision and sounded worse - and got remarkably few complaints, because I think people knew that they had no practical alternative, and neither did we.

The problem with the DVD revolution is that it's massively raised people's expectations, in many cases to a frankly unrealistic level. Believe me, the more conscientious labels would love to source everything from an HD master of a graded telecine of the original camera negative, and they're not deliberately spitting in the face of their audience when they don't.

There are a great many cases where labels are well aware that they're releasing a flawed product, but do so anyway. This is usually because there's no realistic alternative (either because no superior materials exist or it would be unfeasibly expensive to prepare them) - and by the time this is discovered, a substantial sum of money has usually been spent already on rights clearance and other logistics. So they're left with the unenviable choice of releasing something less than perfect and awaiting the ire of discerning customers, or not releasing it and writing off the costs. Unsurprisingly, most labels would opt for the former, provided it didn't damage their reputation too much. And I can't really blame them.

But that's what absolutely separates conscientious labels like Second Run and MoC from cheapskate operators like Facets. They don't always get it perfect, but they do genuinely try to do their best with the materials and money to hand. And both labels have done an amazing job of spinning silk purses from some pretty hideous sow's ears in their time.

It's also highly relevant that Second Run and MoC are both British operations - because the discerning cinephile market in the UK is several times smaller than its equivalent in the US, and transatlantic imports are overwhelmingly biased in the R1-to-R2 direction. As we've discussed elsewhere in these forums, in the European independent arthouse DVD market, you're doing well if you manage to shift over a thousand units per title, exceptionally well if you manage five thousand, and you've got a major blockbuster if you break five figures. Compare this with the likes of Anchor Bay in the US, which releases "limited editions" of 50,000 and 100,000!

Come to think of it, maybe Second Run and MoC should individually number all their discs and try that marketing tactic?
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HerrSchreck
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#132 Post by HerrSchreck »

The apprehension certainly isn't lost on me. This thread has six pages, Nick asked his question on the fourth page. The thread itself has 143 replies. Spread over six pages that's about 24 replies per page. We've got about two pages of replies. Most of which say "release now". That's 50 folks who say they'd buy, out of a few hundred regular/semi-regular members of the forum. We are the hardest of hard core buyers. Out of approx 1200 total members, 50 replied. To those who howl "release it now, how could you even think of saying otherwise to Nick" because they're getting antsy need to think about the world outside this forum, the world of Dvdbeaver in front of the press and the american buying market and the industry in general when a Criterion is generally assumed to be right around the corner, the situation should be a bit more clear by now to those who can't understand why they're hesitating.

Of those fifty who say FEED ME NOW, do you think there won't be scumbags who, right as the MoC is in-line to come out, discover that a supergooeyliscious CC has just been announced and is now just a couple months away... that these guys won't quietly hold off for the CC? Anyone who sells for a living knows the sad and annoying facts of life as far as buyers are concerned; folks say one thing and then go quietly do another thing "Sorry, one day it was staring me in the face there on shelves and I couldnt resist.. heh heh sorry yikes..oops.."

It's the Beaver, man. It's naked and clear and out there forever, and I know that Nick & Doug et al do not like getting hit bad in the image quality zone, at least not anymore... they've really ramped up to very nice levels of image quality, and for folks who don't read this or any forum (to have heard and understood the situation regarding the release), who see the caps of a gorgeous CC VAMPYR compared with a by comparison to-them gunky looking MoC released nearly side by side at the same time as one another, in todays world (just read the NOS thread where "chollyp" actually wished they sped up the fucking film so they could have eliminated combing and had exalted image quality... ach!) I'm talking the folks who never buy a Kino silent "Good heavens! I shall wait and hope for a CC edition of Mauritz Stiller and if it doesn't come well I just wont watch Stiller films... Gracious no!"), who wont buy a Koch Lorber Chinese Classic.... on other words the current market described so well by MikeB above: these cause me to understand full well the hesitation in Wrigleys brain, causing him to float the idea and chew it over.

I just wish some rich bastard would jump on board as producer and help mount this fucking thing to the usual standards. Come on people-- hold off on red wine and bouncing Vegas trim for one month, and contribute to cinema history for the living room.

Then Napoleon, then Grune, then...
kekid
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#133 Post by kekid »

HerrSchreck wrote:Of those fifty who say FEED ME NOW, do you think there won't be scumbags who, right as the MoC is in-line to come out, discover that a supergooeyliscious CC has just been announced and is now just a couple months away... that these guys won't quietly hold off for the CC? Anyone who sells for a living knows the sad and annoying facts of life as far as buyers are concerned; folks say one thing and then go quietly do another thing "Sorry, one day it was staring me in the face there on shelves and I couldnt resist.. heh heh sorry yikes..oops"
My response was to the question "should we release this now or wait for a more immaculate source (expected to be several years out)". This is quite different from the question "should we release this now if Criterion are expected to do so in a few months". MoC face the latter challenge on everything they release, as the "overlap" thread clearly indicates. I do not want to give any opinion on that question. However, we can only observe that MoC has not hesitated to release material even when Criterion has preceded them (e.g. F for Fake). I think the question raised by Peerpee vis-a-vis Vampyr is a different question. In the end, the respondents give the rationale for their conclusions, and MoC will have to make a business decision based on those.
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HerrSchreck
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#134 Post by HerrSchreck »

kekid wrote:[ "should we release this now if Criterion are expected to do so in a few months". MoC face the latter challenge on everything they release, as the "overlap" thread clearly indicates.
But unlike in this instance, MoC meet that challenge nowadays with beautiful HD masters that have been well restored in both the photochemical as well as digital realms. Here they are saying the former is old and the latter is nonexistent, and a CC has been stated to be imminent... So there's a chance they are facing a unique situation in terms of the usual CC-MoC competition.
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ltfontaine
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#135 Post by ltfontaine »

MichaelB wrote:The problem with the DVD revolution is that it's massively raised people's expectations, in many cases to a frankly unrealistic level.
Agreed, there appear to be an increasing number of DVD consumers who are, as HerrSchreck wrote next door in the Nosferatu thread, “a bit more technologically involved than cinematically involved.â€
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MichaelB
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#136 Post by MichaelB »

HerrSchreck wrote:That's 50 folks who say they'd buy, out of a few hundred regular/semi-regular members of the forum. We are the hardest of hard core buyers. Out of approx 1200 total members, 50 replied.
Fewer than 1,500 people signed the Marketa Lazarova petition to have the DVD sourced from the original negative. Even assuming every single one went on to buy the resulting release, that would almost certainly be split between three labels in the US, Britain and the Czech Republic.

In other words, a drop in the ocean when set against the likely production cost.

Now if those 1,500 people had each pledged £1,000/$2,000/CZK 35,000 towards the cost of the restoration, that would be a very different matter... but would there still be 1,500 signatures?
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Rowan
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#137 Post by Rowan »

As I've not seen the Koerber restoration, and lack knowledge of the muted immanent Criterion or the costs already outlaid on the disc, I don't feel in a position to advise MOC on a strategy that's best for business. I can say that an MOC Vampyr would be a no-brainer for me, even with the presence of a contrast-boosted, MTI-ed Criterion counterpart.

Various r2 editions of films that lack the positive publicity and Beaver-sanctioned sex appeal seem to sell well enough, don't they?.. On a recent shopping trip (specifically for the purpose of picking up the new Tabu disc) I noticed, jostling for a vantage point in the cramped ‘world cinema' section, how hungrily some guy eyed-up the Optimum La Strada, promptly whisking it away to the check-out; also the Tartan Bergmans seemed to have all sold out since a last visit. I know this doesn't amount to much (and I'm not sure of course the extent to which MOC rely on the Beaver reading international market for sales) but the instore options here are meagre to say the least. MOC are a godsend in this regard. With such well designed, striking packaging they standout a country mile on British shelves, and, I would dare suppose, sell fairly well on this basis. Vampyr might also enjoy the privilege of being shelved alongside Wes Craven's New Nightmare and co, as I discovered Nosferatu to be..

Personally, I don't mind a degree of film damage, and have simply been waiting for an appropriately framed transfer. But is the Koerber version really as unpresentable as the tone of wearied dread would suggest?
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Tommaso
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#138 Post by Tommaso »

Rowan wrote:Personally, I don't mind a degree of film damage, and have simply been waiting for an appropriately framed transfer. But is the Koerber version really as unpresentable as the tone of wearied dread would suggest?
That's precisely what astonishes me about this whole problem, as the Koerber resto as presented on the MK2 looks actually VERY GOOD. There are some remaining speckles etc., yes, but surely nothing problematic at all. And I sometimes tend to be over-critical about this aspect. I'd say that a great many CC's of films from the 30s look worse, even comparatively new ones ( "Port of Shadows", for instance).

Another thing that seems to have escaped me: how do we know that a CC "Vampyr" is indeed imminent? I know they said they will release it since about the year 2000, and nothing definitive since then. So, is there any substantial evidence that CC will release "Vampyr" indeed in 2008? And even if it is forthcoming, I'd advise to wait and see whether CC will get the aspect ratio right.
kekid
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#139 Post by kekid »

Tommaso wrote:
Rowan wrote:Personally, I don't mind a degree of film damage, and have simply been waiting for an appropriately framed transfer. But is the Koerber version really as unpresentable as the tone of wearied dread would suggest?
That's precisely what astonishes me about this whole problem, as the Koerber resto as presented on the MK2 looks actually VERY GOOD. There are some remaining speckles etc., yes, but surely nothing problematic at all. And I sometimes tend to be over-critical about this aspect. I'd say that a great many CC's of films from the 30s look worse, even comparatively new ones ( "Port of Shadows", for instance).

Another thing that seems to have escaped me: how do we know that a CC "Vampyr" is indeed imminent? I know they said they will release it since about the year 2000, and nothing definitive since then. So, is there any substantial evidence that CC will release "Vampyr" indeed in 2008? And even if it is forthcoming, I'd advise to wait and see whether CC will get the aspect ratio right.
Tamara responded to me in mid-2007 that CC is expecting to release Vampyr, but no date has been fixed yet. So this information is more recent than 2000. Also, I recall Peerpee writing some time ago that he knew that a US company had secured the rights to release this version of Vampyr, but he did not see it appropriate to name the company. I assume he knew it was Criterion.
From a strictly business standpoint, MoC are facing a marginal cost decision. I believe that most, if not all, of the development cost for Vampyr has already been incurred by MoC. If they do not release it, it will be a sunk cost. I do not understand the cost structure of the DVD industry, but from what I have read, the actual cost of pressing a DVD is small in comparison. To this we need to add the cost of the lavish book MoC will include. So the question is, even with somewhat depressed sales (if CC decides to come out with their edition), can MoC have enough sales to pay for the variable cost of producing these discs. If so, they should go ahead and release this. Further, if they decide to go forward with this, they should do so as soon as possible. The longer the time interval between them issuing this and Criterion following it, the greater will be their sales.
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MichaelB
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#140 Post by MichaelB »

kekid wrote:I do not understand the cost structure of the DVD industry, but from what I have read, the actual cost of pressing a DVD is small in comparison.
It depends on the DVD - clearly, if you pull an existing telecine off the shelf, convert it to MPEG-2 as cheaply as possible, and slap the end result onto a DVD with basic menus, production costs are going to be pretty low.

On the other hand, sourcing high-quality materials (or even creating them), cleaning them up either chemically or digitally (or both), translating and timing new subtitles, tracking down (or creating) decent extras and providing good backup materials can push the production cost sky-high.

(And if it's an independent company, you need to add hefty licensing fees to all that lot - the likes of MoC can't just pull stuff off the shelf like a Hollywood major)

Often, the effort won't be visible by the viewer - for instance, the copy of Les Chimères des Å vankmajer, the hour-long French documentary on the BFI's Å vankmajer set, needed half a day in an edit suite to prepare a version suitable for UK distribution. The problem was that the rightsholders could only supply two versions: one with continuous French voiceover, French onscreen titles and French subtitles on film clips, and the other with no voiceover or titles at all.

So we had to take both versions, create a composite master that retained the original French linking narration while losing the voiceover translation and add new English clip titles where necessary. We then had to create and time two sets of subtitles (normal and hard-of-hearing, as part of the documentary was in English). I'm not about to breach commercial confidence and reveal how much that cost - but it was obviously a fair bit more expensive than just working straight from a pre-existing Digibeta master.

And then there are artwork and packaging costs, BBFC classification costs (calculated on a per-minute basis), marketing costs, you name it - and compared to which the physical cost of pressing the actual DVDs becomes relatively trivial.
bollibasher
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#141 Post by bollibasher »

Can I just ask: When MoC initially sorted out the rights to release this DVD of Vampyr, presumably there's always a budget for MTI cleanup right? Will Criterion spend more (or be able to spend more) on this process using the same HD master?

I don't really understand the discussion re: a possible future restoration because will clearly take years and a lot of funding. Is the point here that MoC can't afford to do as good a digital cleanup as Criterion even though the whole MTI thing must've been included in the initial budgeting? Its not as if another more modern restoration is a likely to happen soon, whether MoC hold off their release or not. Was a putative restoration even a consideration originally?

I'm sure these questions have probably been asked but I'm not sure I see why MoC have stalled, is it purely because of Criterion competition? Were they initially not expecting any competition and therefore not expecting competition doing digital work. Or were they not expecting the condition of the film to be so bad. Because the state of it is pretty much clear from the MK2 dvd which has been around for quite a while now...

If you ask me MoC and Criterion should collaborate on it and join their funds to get a boombastic digital effort. Also, does anyone know if this is a new or old DVD and whether it uses the Koerber resto or not?
kekid
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#142 Post by kekid »

I read Peerpee's confirmation about La Notte coming out around February, and I was confused about the discussion we are having on Vampyr. Criterion have announced their intention to release both La Notte and Vampyr. They have not given a specific date for either. Why did MoC question if they should go forward with Vampyr, while doing so confidently with La Notte? Why would whatever rationale they had for going forward with La Notte not apply to Vampyr?
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What A Disgrace
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#143 Post by What A Disgrace »

kekid wrote:I read Peerpee's confirmation about La Notte coming out around February, and I was confused about the discussion we are having on Vampyr. Criterion have announced their intention to release both La Notte and Vampyr. They have not given a specific date for either. Why did MoC question if they should go forward with Vampyr, while doing so confidently with La Notte? Why would whatever rationale they had for going forward with La Notte not apply to Vampyr?
MoC questioned about going forward with Vampyr because of restoration issues, not Criterion's having similar plans. Unless I read it wrong.
kekid
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#144 Post by kekid »

What A Disgrace wrote:
kekid wrote:I read Peerpee's confirmation about La Notte coming out around February, and I was confused about the discussion we are having on Vampyr. Criterion have announced their intention to release both La Notte and Vampyr. They have not given a specific date for either. Why did MoC question if they should go forward with Vampyr, while doing so confidently with La Notte? Why would whatever rationale they had for going forward with La Notte not apply to Vampyr?
MoC questioned about going forward with Vampyr because of restoration issues, not Criterion's having similar plans. Unless I read it wrong.
I gave a rationale earlier in this thread for MoC to go forward with the release of Vampyr if their hesitation was due to restoration issues. Several forum members suggested that their concern might be in reality competing with an expected Criterion release. My current post questions why MoC would want to avoid competing with Criterion on Vampyr but not on La Notte.
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denti alligator
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#145 Post by denti alligator »

Should have responded to peerpee's question ages ago, but I've been travelling.

I say: release it now. Don't hesitate a second longer. I, for one, will buy it whether or nor not Criterion has announced a release of a new restoration. Others, I am sure, will also. The sooner you get it out, the more you'll be rewarded for the work you've done.

So, peerpee, what are MoC's plans?
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Tommaso
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#146 Post by Tommaso »

denti alligator wrote: The sooner you get it out, the more you'll be rewarded for the work you've done.
Precisely. The real problem would be if CC indeed announces a definite date for their release. Most people will simply buy the version which happens to come first (me included). Do it now, and get our cash :)
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HerrSchreck
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#147 Post by HerrSchreck »

kekid wrote:
What A Disgrace wrote:
kekid wrote:I read Peerpee's confirmation about La Notte coming out around February, and I was confused about the discussion we are having on Vampyr. Criterion have announced their intention to release both La Notte and Vampyr. They have not given a specific date for either. Why did MoC question if they should go forward with Vampyr, while doing so confidently with La Notte? Why would whatever rationale they had for going forward with La Notte not apply to Vampyr?
MoC questioned about going forward with Vampyr because of restoration issues, not Criterion's having similar plans. Unless I read it wrong.
I gave a rationale earlier in this thread for MoC to go forward with the release of Vampyr if their hesitation was due to restoration issues. Several forum members suggested that their concern might be in reality competing with an expected Criterion release. My current post questions why MoC would want to avoid competing with Criterion on Vampyr but not on La Notte.
Isn't the answer self evident?... Obviously La Notte had a fullblown budget including digital resto whereby they feel they can comfortably compete head to head. That's obviously not the case in Vampyr.

Sheeshhh.
kekid
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#148 Post by kekid »

HerrSchreck wrote:
kekid wrote:
What A Disgrace wrote: MoC questioned about going forward with Vampyr because of restoration issues, not Criterion's having similar plans. Unless I read it wrong.
I gave a rationale earlier in this thread for MoC to go forward with the release of Vampyr if their hesitation was due to restoration issues. Several forum members suggested that their concern might be in reality competing with an expected Criterion release. My current post questions why MoC would want to avoid competing with Criterion on Vampyr but not on La Notte.
Isn't the answer self evident?... Obviously La Notte had a fullblown budget including digital resto whereby they feel they can comfortably compete head to head. That's obviously not the case in Vampyr.
I am not the most sophisticated guy when it comes to technical matters, but I thought this is a level playing field - same conditions apply to both Criterion and MoC. For each of the films under discussion, either both companies have digital restoration or neither does. Therefore they are competing on comparable terms for both La Notte and Vampyr. Unless we believe that for non-digitally-restored sources Criterion has teachnical superiority over MoC, I see no reason for MoC to hesitate.
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cgray
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#149 Post by cgray »

he was joking. again, MoC's decision (as far as peerpee has explained it here) has nothing to do with criterion or any R1 company or disc.
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HerrSchreck
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#150 Post by HerrSchreck »

No I wasn't joking.

I don't understand how anyone could think at this late date that CC is in the business of just schlupping someone else's digibeta and encoding. Only in the case of a superatomically perfect beta (ie MK2 Pickpocket) will they go straight to authoring. Nothing could be rarer (outside of Eclipse, where they are truly at the mercy of the source for telecine).

Don't you read their little booklets where they fetishistically go on and on at length about how thousands of instances of dirt scratches tears urine stains etc have been removed? They do this themselves, and it's what they're famous for.

One would assume in this situation where a HD master was recently created in Denmark, that:

1) CC is going to receive it, use stabilization tools, degraining tools, massive audio tools, and the digital pencil eraser removing speckles scratches etc... and then contrast boost and edge enhance the shit out of it, probably beyond 1932 levels.

2) MoC is stuck in a position where they have to go straight to authoring, as is.

(Man....)
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