There Will Be Blood (Paul Thomas Anderson, 2007)

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Awesome Welles
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:02 am
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#101 Post by Awesome Welles »

GoldenPilgrim wrote:I see what you mean, and I don't entirely disagree with you, especially when you say, "his eventual disdain for the Church is emblematic of his character's ethos which we see building from the beginning of the film and we see climax at the end of the film..." But also, like I said, much of the pay off with that ending would come with
Spoiler
his defeat of Eli Sunday/His Church, which throughout the film had been painted as a bunch of zombies, Anderson's intent is clear, and I don't think he's won any argument with an unfair portrayal (but to Anderson's credit I don't think he thought he would win any arguments either as his character doing the arguing for him is the greediest and most insane person in the film)
I think the way Daniel Plainview acts says more about his character than it does about the Church... (just my opinion).
Spoiler
Perhaps there is that kind of horror movie thing where there is a character who behaves so annoyingly that when they get killed you're happy - turning you into a sadist (or with revenge movies the initial abject impetus for revenge is so disgusting that the eventual [gory] revenge act is delightful). I don't know, I think I'd need to see the film again though on initial viewing I know I didn't feel as if Paul Dano had been made into an annoying hyperbolic evangelist so that we'd purposefully hate him, and didn't feel as if I'd been put in that position. I guess this just shows our different reservations about the Church...
GoldenPilgrim wrote:...but there were just a few scenes where the music was distracting for me
Hmmm. I didn't find it distracting at all, there were certainly moments where the score made me [figuratively] jump though I was never pulled away from the scene proper.

On a side note I cannot believe Paul Dano has not been nominated for a Globe, and the film has only received noms for Best Picture and Best Actor (DDL).
Carson Dyle
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:46 am

#102 Post by Carson Dyle »

Saw this last night. I loved every throbbing, pulsating frame. I don't think Mr. and Mrs. America are going to know what the fuck they're watching, and other than Daniel Day Lewis, there's no way in hell this is gonna get any Oscar nominations, but cineastes are gonna be chewing over this one for years.
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Awesome Welles
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#103 Post by Awesome Welles »

Carson Dyle wrote:...there's no way in hell this is gonna get any Oscar nominations...
I disagree I can see noms for screenplay (the usual Oscar cop out) and music, though wins is another matter for which I think this film will be neglected, though I think DDL's chances are good as he doesn't seem to be up against much.
terabin
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#104 Post by terabin »

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Jeff
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:49 am
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#105 Post by Jeff »

For those who are itching to see this ASAP, there will be sneak previews in 14 cities on December 29 at midnight. Here is the little promo video that Anderson cut for the event, and the official site has the info on the screening locations.

The film opens commercially on December 26, but only on one screen in NY and one in LA. Look for it to go a little bit wider on January 4.
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Cold Bishop
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#106 Post by Cold Bishop »

Jeff wrote:For those who are itching to see this ASAP, there will be sneak previews in 14 cities on December 29 at midnight. Here is the little promo video that Anderson cut for the event, and the official site has the info on the screening locations.

The film opens commercially on December 26, but only on one screen in NY and one in LA. Look for it to go a little bit wider on January 4.
Thank you for that... I will have to make certain to get tickets for that.
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Banana #3
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:32 pm

#107 Post by Banana #3 »

Where did you learn that info, Jeff? And how wide will it be going on the 4th?
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Jeff
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#108 Post by Jeff »

Banana #3 wrote:Where did you learn that info, Jeff? And how wide will it be going on the 4th?
I saw the preview screening info on another forum. Box Office Mojo is usually a good place to find expansion info, though they don't have any details about TWBB yet, other than the two screens on Wednesday. I don't know how wide it's going on the fourth, but I do know that it gets at least one screen in Denver that day, so I would assume that the same holds true for similar size markets.
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Hai2u
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#109 Post by Hai2u »

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John Cope
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#110 Post by John Cope »

David Ehrenstein wrote: I was reminded of the centrality of sexual identity most keenly this season with Paul Thomas Anderson's amazing There Will Be Blood. The protagonist, Daniel Plainview, has no sexuality whatsoever. He shows no desire for women, or men. The small child he adopts and claims as his own he treats -- by his own admission in the devestating thrid act -- as a prop to con the suckers. One scene where he goes with miners who work with him to w whorehouse is marked by the fact that he shows no interest in the women whatsoever.

What's his story? That's the mystery of the thing. And it's to Paul Thomas Anderson's credit that this mystery is maintained without defaulting to heterosexaulity as per usual.
I'm fascinated by this sort of thing as well, and deeply appreciative of it. One's first instinct, I suppose, is to suspect that the DDL character is simply a misanthrope and cares for no one; he does not have that capacity and has seen fit to exploit it as he finds it in others for the weakness it can be. Still, that's only a first, impulsive reaction. I seem to recall from reading the script that he exhibits genuine interest in his family, especially when his presumptive brother turns up. I'm curious to see how this is handled in the film proper, however, as the interpretation of the words can change much. Certainly, Plainview confides to his brother in a way he never does to anyone else. But does this just speak to a human need that even Plainview has? Also, I remember something else about wanting to rebuild the family house in this new location in a style more fitting Plainview's station and grand ambition/self-regard.

This issue of sexual identity as a determining, shaping aspect of individual character seems essential to me not to neglect. There is, as David rightly says, nothing reductive about it. It is only as reductive as any other perspective which is inherently limited by language and the construction of thought patterns. Everything can and is approachable only through certain initial attitudes, presumptions, axioms, whatever; none of which appears ex nihilo in our minds--these perspectives are always initially based on or a response to some prior model we held or someone else held. That seems obvious but also worth restating. It is, of course, what we do with that initial perspective, where we allow it to go and what insights it shapes that is worth anything at all.

Anyway, the absence of sexuality in Plainview reminds me of an interesting parallel in the character of King Sebastian in Oliveira's majestic O Quinto Império. Though it isn't dwelt on at length, this character also displays a notable disinterest in sexuality. And he, too, is a man of enforced will and aggression. I don't believe that in either case there is a reductive argument being made that the absence of sex turns men into monsters. However, sex can and does have a certain mollifying quality to temper or blunt or divert aggression. At our level of cognitive development, sex has a poetic capacity which raw, grasping ambition does not (certainly not when ambition is unreflective). In other words, it allows for refinement through nuance. When it is absent, that kind of temperance and human connection is either also absent or it emerges in a different form. The question becomes what shape does it take and is it pursued in any form?

The difference between the two characters is in the fact that Sebastian's vast, empire building aspirations are depicted as the product of a kind of naive, though hardly harmless, idealism, and yet an idealism that contains within it a certain nobility, a tenor of character which is, or at least can be, genuinely admirable. I get the impression that this dimension of character does not exist in Plainview, or at least is less overtly considered. Is his ambition admirable? I'm sure it is to some but can we who oppose what he represents see anything admirable in him at all?

This leads me to wonder how multi-dimensional the character is. Is he recognizably human enough or a monolithic entity for whom we can have no sympathy? Is it important to have sympathy for him? Is he a tragic figure or is his very existence our tragedy? His name alone is a dark joke, suggesting a semi-distorted, though all-American, Jeffersonian ideal.

I read a fascinating piece with Anderson somewhere in which he justified a change from the source novel. In the book there is a character that represents a viable socialist alternative to the representative capitalist figure. This character is absent in the film and Anderson insinuated that it was because he felt that it offered a false hope; that there could be no stopping someone like Plainview from the fulfillment of his ambitions, no impediment persuasive enough to shape his goals differently. That may be. But does the result emerge as Kubrickian cosmic wisdom or a cowed adolescent nihilism? I'm expecting something in between; not a muddle exactly but also perhaps not the precise invective I would like.
Last edited by John Cope on Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jbeall
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#111 Post by jbeall »

Two differing reviews: Manohla Dargis of the NY Times loves it... while Stephanie Zacharek of salon.com calls it "a maddening folly."

and I have to go to a conference, so I can't see it until the 31st. D'OH!!!!
David Ehrenstein
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:30 am

#112 Post by David Ehrenstein »

This is two in a row for increasingly clueless Stephanie Zacharek .

There Will Be Blood is a great an extremely compelx film -- whose effect is not easily summarized. Neither are its themes.

I think that's what offends her.
putney
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#113 Post by putney »

saw it today, just a few hours ago actually, so at this point most fresh in my mind is my biggest problem with it... but first, it's "o.k." i think...i have a feeling my feelings for it will decline more so... but, what i'm (actually steamed) about now is the score. the score never failed to have me clawing at my seat. firstly, it's a collection of every technique a 2nd year college composition major is completely enthralled with, without yet realizing the baggage it carries with it. and "extended techniques" and such, which are part and parcel of how he has written for the strings in this film carry quite a bit of baggage, which also hampers its ability to work with the film. you've got two dominating historical threads going on simultaneously in the film. the music carries so much 1950-1965 european baggage with it, that there a real sense of schizopherenia going on. that also left me feeling greenwood isn't really aquanted with film language so much in terms of the integration of the various aspects that go into making that final image we see up there.

the music seems composed from outside the film, it feels layered on, it is making commentary on something we are not seeing on the screen, there is a constant distancing effect, but not in contrast to what we're seeing, but irregardless of what we're seeing.

(one saving grace would have taken 2 seconds. at the beginning of the score just write "no vibrato") the european avante garde tradition of the 50's and 60's over-use is contrasted even more so when a small part of arvo part's music is used (coming from a completely different avant garde tradition, but one that references music outside of the "canon") while still not so convinced of how it is used, it's tone is much more in keeping with film.

frankly i think there should have been no music at all, but if anything would have worked, they would have done better to use carl ruggles or charles ives or someone of that generation , where there is the similar tones, but an actual resonance with the time we are seeing on screen, yet as was those composer's wont, a critical viewpoint. it truly, (hahah, obviously) distracted me. i would really like to see Anderson direct someone else's script.
Nothing
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:04 am

#114 Post by Nothing »

What exactly is avant garde about Arvo Part or any other of the minimalists?

Haven't seen (or heard) this yet but, yeah, I can see how some dude from Radiohead mimicking Penderecki, Ligeti, Lutoslawski and Kurtag would be kind of tired.
David Ehrenstein
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#115 Post by David Ehrenstein »

putney wrote:"the music seems composed from outside the film, it feels layered on, it is making commentary on something we are not seeing on the screen, there is a constant distancing effect, but not in contrast to what we're seeing, but irregardless of what we're seeing."
Precisely. Ever heard of "dialectics"?
Nothing wrote: I can see how some dude from Radiohead mimicking Penderecki, Ligeti, Lutoslawski and Kurtag would be kind of tired.
And I can see how complaining about "some dude from Radiohead mimicking Penderecki, Ligeti, Lutoslawski and Kurtag" can be very tired.
putney
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#116 Post by putney »

David Ehrenstein wrote:
Nothing wrote: I can see how some dude from Radiohead mimicking Penderecki, Ligeti, Lutoslawski and Kurtag would be kind of tired.
And I can see how complaining about "some dude from Radiohead mimicking Penderecki, Ligeti, Lutoslawski and Kurtag" can be very tired.
i did not want to complain because he's from radiohead, trust me, because i could personally get accused of similar nonsensical criticism due to my own "work history", but i am honestly expressing my distaste with the use of music in the film. it's not because he's from radiohead. it's because he's a college level composer, and with that, he's carrying tons of baggage, baggage which is not needed in a film like this and is more, much much more than distracting.

i understand many people will find the music interesting, or emphatic,and so on, and i honestly wish i could hear it from that viewpoint, but unfortunately it's something i am too familiar with (i mean that in a "first hand sense", not as a disparagement to other people's personal impressions) to enjoy it from that perspective. also, i don't "blame" mr. greenwood because i know ALL too well, how you can make music for a film, and what you intended is of no concern the music is placed into the film by others, despite your intentions, that just happens, sometimes to cringing extremes.

not to be rude, but i'm tired and it's 3 am here.. but if you need to know what's "avante garde" about the minimalists, i highly reccomened reading michael nyman's "experimental music cage a and beyond" which he wrote in 74, but is now available again. at that time he was a very perceptive music critic, and he very clearly delineates the aesthetics of "experimental" and "avant garde" in post wwII music. there is plenty of politics (and what's more political than the "avant garde", hahaha) in the rise of minimalism, in it's various strains....

it's been about 10 hours since i saw the film today, and unfortunately, it's continuing to sink in my mind. BUT, i do hope other people will enjoy it, because it's better than pretty much anything else out of hollywood in the last few years. i respect the film, i just think he really really needs to find someone besides himself to write his films.
Last edited by putney on Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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margot
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#117 Post by margot »

If this doesn't win every Oscar it could be nominated for they should just stop hosting them.
TedW
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#118 Post by TedW »

For the life of me I could not see what everyone is (predictably) raving about. The movie clearly doesn't work. But hey, I said that about his other ones, too. I'm obviously the heretic, barking insanely at the moon about this guy, since everyone seems to love the sweat from his balls. I think the guy means well and is admirably ambitious -- and the first hour-ish is very watchable -- but the whole enterprise soon disintegrates and the very last section of the movie is straight amateur-hour. Day-Lewis is basically doing John Huston doing Noah Cross, down to the accent, chewing up the scenery, and Dano is unconvincing... but it doesn't matter. The fathers/sons pecadilloe of his doesn't feel thoroughly worked out enough to have an impact and the ideas of the film seem a little half-cooked. The score only works in fits and starts, not completely, (and Greenwood needs to learn a little more about orchestration. Loved In Rainbows, though!). But the foaming at the mouth at his "genius" will continue unabated, I'm sure.

If you liked it, though, good on ya.
David Ehrenstein
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#119 Post by David Ehrenstein »

"The movie clearly doesn't work."
Could you just be the teensiest more explanatory as to why?
Nothing
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:04 am

#120 Post by Nothing »

putney wrote:i highly reccomened reading michael nyman's "experimental music cage a and beyond"
Michael Nyman is a reactionary, although his music does function well in Greenaway's work.
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miless
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#121 Post by miless »

Raoul Duke wrote:If this doesn't win every Oscar it could be nominated for they should just stop hosting them.
well, either might happen (as there are rumors that the Academy Awards might be cancelled or postponed due to the writers strike)

for an introduction into 20th century composers I recommend Alex Ross' The Rest Is Noise... It does a pretty good job at showing the evolving state of composed musical work from Wagner onward. A really interesting read, even though a lot of it goes over my head (mostly his descriptions of how the different musical pieces work and how the different notes fuse to create other notes, etc... as I have no idea how music of that sort works).
TedW
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#122 Post by TedW »

David Ehrenstein wrote:
"The movie clearly doesn't work."
Could you just be the teensiest more explanatory as to why?
Probably shouldn't have dropped a blanket statement like that. I hinted at a few of my problems but stopped, thinking of all the defending I'm gonna have to do when the piling on begins. I'll try to get something down later, though.
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HerrSchreck
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#123 Post by HerrSchreck »

So much for "clearly" , I guess..?
TedW
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#124 Post by TedW »

Well, clearly to me. But I'll get some further thoughts on it together, just for the hell of it. But not tonight.
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Polybius
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#125 Post by Polybius »

TedW wrote: I'm obviously the heretic, barking insanely at the moon about this guy, since everyone seems to love the sweat from his balls.
Not everyone.

I'm not venturing into critiquing a movie I haven't seen, but I'm not particularly well disposed toward PTA in general. There used to be a substantial element here that agreed with me, but they seem to have melted away or maybe they just aren't interested in lodging a dissenting view.
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