422 The Last Emperor

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
zedz
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:24 pm

#101 Post by zedz »

CSM126 wrote:OK, as far as which versions of the film are included here, I think we have something of an answer. The criterion page has changed to reflect a run time of 164 minutes, which would be the length of the theatrical cut if I'm not mistaken. And the features list the "Extended television version". So I was right: Theatrical cut and Extended cut. Yay me.
Latest blog post clarifies this: the theatrical release is the director's cut, the television version is an earlier contractually-demanded alternate.
Bertolucci wrote:I would be very pleased to present the theatrical version for The Last Emperor, but I'm perplexed on presenting the director's cut, because I wouldn't know what else to say about a version that in my opinion is not much different from the other one, just a little bit more boring (as very often the director's cut can be). That's my sincere feeling.
Mental Mike
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:06 am

#102 Post by Mental Mike »

I've asked this before, but is Criterion going to release more Bertolluci? I would definately buy a criterionized version of Last Tango in Paris...
User avatar
Cold Bishop
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:45 am
Location: Portland, OR

#103 Post by Cold Bishop »

Mental Mike wrote:I've asked this before, but is Criterion going to release more Bertolluci? I would definately buy a criterionized version of Last Tango in Paris...
Before the Revolution has been planned for ages. (I'd recommend the Italian R2 RHV - 2-Disc and subbed, if you aren't set on just getting a Criterion.)

Last Tango SE has been announced for this year by MGM, so there's no chance of a Criterion.

Still no site of the brilliant and essential The Spider's Stratagem, an r1 La Luna, or The Tragedy of a Ridiculous Man.
User avatar
souvenir
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:20 pm

#104 Post by souvenir »

zedz wrote:Latest blog post clarifies this: the theatrical release is the director's cut, the television version is an earlier contractually-demanded alternate.
Ha! That's wonderful. If the theatrical cut wasn't here then I think it would go against Criterion's "mission statement." Now knowing that it's also Bertolucci's preferred cut makes me smile. The "director's cut" label has become a marketing tool more than an artistic victory anyway.
User avatar
Jeff
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:49 am
Location: Denver, CO

#105 Post by Jeff »

souvenir wrote:If the theatrical cut wasn't here then I think it would go against Criterion's "mission statement." Now knowing that it's also Bertolucci's preferred cut makes me smile. The "director's cut" label has become a marketing tool more than an artistic victory anyway.
Good news indeed. I'm very happy to be wrong about it. I'd always heard that Bertolucci had disowned the theatrical cut in favor of the long version. Turns out it was the other way around. It's been a while since I've seen either one, but I always preferred the theatrical version (largely because I have the attention span of a four-year-old). Now I don't have to feel like a heretic for doing so.
User avatar
Matango
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:19 am
Location: Hong Kong

#106 Post by Matango »

Anyone know how long the extended TV version is? (Sorry if this is already mentioned earlier in the thread). And is it 1.33:1?

thanks.
User avatar
tavernier
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:18 pm

#107 Post by tavernier »

218 minutes and it's 2:1 -- according to the back of the box.
User avatar
exte
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:27 pm
Location: NJ

#108 Post by exte »

tavernier wrote:218 minutes and it's 2:1 -- according to the back of the box.
The beaver will be on it soon, I suppose, to give us the final look, right?
User avatar
tavernier
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:18 pm

#109 Post by tavernier »

exte wrote:
tavernier wrote:218 minutes and it's 2:1 -- according to the back of the box.
The beaver will be on it soon, I suppose, to give us the final look, right?
I'm sure Gary will... I haven't gotten a chance to see it yet.
User avatar
sidehacker
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Bowling Green, Ohio
Contact:

#110 Post by sidehacker »

User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:36 am
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

#111 Post by denti alligator »

Interesting that the framing of the theatrical vs television versions is, despite the same 2.2 AR, very different in some of those caps. Strange.

Is the difference in quality between these two versions just a result of compression? Also seems strange to me. Looks to me like contrast levels differ.
User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm

#112 Post by domino harvey »

It's 2.0 not 2.20, and the amount of information lost is devastating, I don't understand how anyone can praise this set regardless of the quality of the picture when enough of the picture is gone for a scene to change meaning. Example:

Image
Image

From three people on a porch to one and a hint of a second.
User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:36 am
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

#113 Post by denti alligator »

Domino, that's unfair. You've posted the television version, which is differently framed than the Bertolucci-preferred theatrical version:

Image
User avatar
SoyCuba
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:30 pm
Location: Finland

#114 Post by SoyCuba »

Yeah, and the cropping looks just as bad in the theatrical version. I will NOT be buying this release and Criterion should have known better.
User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm

#115 Post by domino harvey »

Denti, you're right, I misread which was which, and yet Soy Cuba is also right: now all of the information is missing from one side, changing the spatial focus of the shot. Also look at all the caps on the Beaver that feature a lone figure central to the frame, the reformatting brings them closer/fills up more of the frame, diminishing their isolation within these shots.
User avatar
starmanof51
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:28 am
Location: Seattleish
Contact:

#116 Post by starmanof51 »

You did pick the most damning comp Domino - it was the one that really jumped out at me as well. Whether you pick the Criterion TV or theatrical screenshot, both are much worse compositions than the original at 2.35.

2.0 AR is just not defendable. I'm sure it's a lovely package and I still might get it but it's surely compromised for no good reason. I congratulate Gary for being able to work up enthusiasm in spite of that. I had hoped they were letting Storaro have the theatrical cut according to his whim and would slip the TV version in as 2.35, but no such luck.

On the other hand, I might blow it off and try and get the R2 now. Decisions...
User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm

#117 Post by HerrSchreck »

Being no great fan of this film, I hit the jackpot getting to save a whole sack of loot...
User avatar
Jean-Luc Garbo
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:55 am
Contact:

#118 Post by Jean-Luc Garbo »

I haven't seen this film, but I am an O'Toole fan. How big is his part in it?
User avatar
TheGodfather
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:39 pm
Location: The Netherlands

#119 Post by TheGodfather »

It`s a sad thing indeed that they changed the AR that much. Don`t really understand how they can do something like that.
Will be getting it nonetheless though, but still....
User avatar
Lino
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:18 am
Location: Sitting End
Contact:

#120 Post by Lino »

Never mind the AR - it's the colors I have a problem with now. It looks so cold and drab. And it's a shame because I was really thinking of "upgrading" to this new Criterion being a big fan of the film and all but now, I'm not so sure.
User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:36 am
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

#121 Post by denti alligator »

What they should have done is release the theatrical version in both ARs.
User avatar
Cronenfly
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:04 pm

#122 Post by Cronenfly »

denti alligator wrote:What they should have done is release the theatrical version in both ARs.
As great as that would've been, it's none too feasible in regards to the number of discs it would've pushed the set to. I'm also sure that it would've gotten Vittorio's knickers in a twist. The only solution for fans of the film is to buy the R2 as well, I guess.
User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm

#123 Post by HerrSchreck »

Lino wrote:Never mind the AR - it's the colors I have a problem with now. It looks so cold and drab. .
Thats the first thing I thought, even above the 2.0ism. The film loses it's mythical pallette and turns into Crime Drama Colorville, cold and grey.
Cronenfly wrote: I'm also sure that it would've gotten Vittorio's knickers in a twist. The only solution for fans of the film is to buy the R2 as well, I guess.
I think their decision to honor a dilletante's desire to say "the work I did must not remain the work I did. We must make it What I'd do now," is not to be admired.

Ex post facto "directors cuts" are one thing as an add on bonus. "Cinematographers cuts" made decades after the fact, when the original film indulged the artisans involved without interference (i e some of the scope-to-academy controversies w Russ Metty), are odd to me and should be against the rules. That's CC hobnobbing in telecine. How can people trace the ideas and development of cinematographers visions over the decades if you cannot observe the changes in their form and theories, if you allow their Current State to whitewash their old work? WHo sits around and says the "new concept" is better than the old "work completed"?

When your cinematographer has gone insane, and wants to radically restructure what to some is considered a pre-existing masterpiece on its own terms, what to you do? When does it end. When does CC so "down boy! This film is finished as far as we understood it."
User avatar
Cronenfly
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:04 pm

#124 Post by Cronenfly »

HerrSchreck wrote:
Lino wrote:Never mind the AR - it's the colors I have a problem with now. It looks so cold and drab. .
Thats the first thing I thought, even above the 2.0ism. The film loses it's mythical pallette and turns into Crime Drama Colorville, cold and grey.
Did the film have the "mythical" green-yellow bias theatrically? The cold/grey colors of the Criterion do little for me; is this a case of Criterion/Storaro revisionism (as it would seem), or did the movie actually look so drab in the theatres? Is this another case, like the Coppola Dracula SE transfer, where the film looked one way theatrically and on the Superbit DVD and then another "correct" way on the SE?

And I agree with you, Schreck: Criterion's honoring Storaro's insanity (or, as they spin it in their blog, genius) without offering up a version of the film that's reflective of the original work is unforgivable. I was hoping that, as a consolation, the television version would be untampered with, but, alas, not. It could be worse; at least there's a truer transfer in R2, unlike Apocalypse Now, which remains fucked everywhere on DVD (to my knowledge).
Last edited by Cronenfly on Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Dylan
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:28 am

#125 Post by Dylan »

Jean-Luc Garbo wrote:I haven't seen this film, but I am an O'Toole fan. How big is his part in it?
It's a supporting role, but he's certainly excellent and it's an important part of the story. And FYI, his screen time is doubled for the television version, so if O'Toole is your main reason for seeing The Last Emperor then that's probably the version to pursue.

Regarding the new transfer, I'm less than impressed with the screencaps as well. The R2 is far more colorful and the framing far more pleasing and less claustrophobic. The 2:1 works beautifully (in my opinion) for Apocalypse Now and all of Storaro's later work, but The Last Emperor should've been left at 2.35:1. And I do say that as (quite possibly) one of Storaro's most devoted fans.
Post Reply