There Will Be Blood (Paul Thomas Anderson, 2007)

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ogygia avenue
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:51 pm

#251 Post by ogygia avenue »

Klaylock wrote:Okay, I guess you mean you wanted sex scenes? Are you just joking? Because everyone knows how much the general religious moviegoing public loves to see preachers performing in explicit sex scenes on film. Gosh, you know what else would be great? If they rereleased The Devils and distributed it to general audiences.
I had meant that with some small degree of sarcasm/irony/bemused...whatever. Please kindly take a chill pill.

(Though, admittedly, PT Anderson doesn't strike me as the type to want to appease "the general religious moviegoing public.")
filmnoir1
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:36 am

There Will Be Blood

#252 Post by filmnoir1 »

I was able to see this film last weekend but it has taken me that long to re-think the film and even contemplate trying to write my thoughts on the film. Once again Anderson has taken the language of cinema, expanded it and challenged audiences in ways that contemporary cinema is unable to do.
He is without question the heir apparent to the spirit and ingenuity of Robert Altman, who Anderson cites himself as his primary influence. (Also he was the assistant director on Prairie Home Companion 2006. Like Altman, Anderson prefers to tell stories that rely on subtle complexities that only come across visually. For example in There Will Be Blood there is a moment where Daniel is in his observation post watching his men work when Eli and the townspeople invade his domain. While Eli and his flock may intend to impart their respect and love of Christ on the workmen, the way in which Anderson films the shot as the people pin the crosses on the men and lead them away, demonstrates that Eli is like Daniel, a man possessed with his own vision of the world wrapped in inconsiderate behavior to the men and their values.
Thus there can be the blood of Christ and the blood of money and in the case of America the two are forever entwined in such a way as to harm and preclude progress. This connection is emphasized in the film in the shot when the first well breaks apart, killing Daniel's partner who has climbed into the well to fix a problem.
Another joy of the film is its connection to the Western and American exceptionalism. Plainview illustrates all that is wrong with America: greed, inconsiderate boorish behavior, self-delusion and possession, racism, sexism, and an inability to recognize the very evils that mark American identities and experiences.
This Anderson's first adult film, wherein he understands that to argue and discuss the problems of America is more than cartoon-like, flat characters. In fact it may require a bit of meglomania as Day-Lewis beautifully and brillantly demonstrates.
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davebert
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#253 Post by davebert »

As expected, Daniel Day-Lewis won the SAG award and seems destined for an Oscar for this. Since the Coens won the DGA award, though, it seems P.T.'s probably out of luck on that count.

But hey, the Oscars mean even less this year!
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pemmican
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#254 Post by pemmican »

I simply cannot understand the fawning-over that this film is receiving from apparently intelligent people and need to re-assert my dismay. Despite the considerable craft that went into making it -- I quite liked the first hour - I don't see TWBB as saying anything profound or at all interesting about capitalism or religion ("Christian hypocrisy is bad? Unbridled capitalism is bad?" Oh, how thought-provoking). As someone else suggested above, in fact, the film is only interesting to the extent that Plainview is humanized and made almost sympathetic (ie., when confessing to his "brother" that he hates everyone); only there does he stop seeming a caricature - only there does his darkness illuminate aspects of our own psyches and open a path to genuine thought. Eli Sunday, alas, remains a cartoon throughout; the business with Plainview's "son" is painfully underdeveloped and his son is never convincing as a character unto himself; there are no other characters in the film of note - even his "brother" is given very little screentime; and what subplots do exist (the pipeline, the business with Standard Oil) feel tacked-on and in no way engaging or particularly meaningful. Having built us up with great craft to believe "There Will Be a Payoff," what we get is an abrupt, unsatisfying, and not particularly illuminating ending that almost reduces the film to farce. If it were a humbler, smaller film, I'd perhaps be less disappointed, but given the grandiosity of its ambitions, I think this is the least of PTA's films, and the most overrated piece of American cinema in years.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, Ray Carney.

P.
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Steven H
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#255 Post by Steven H »

pemmican wrote:I simply cannot understand the fawning-over that this film is receiving from apparently intelligent people and need to re-assert my dismay. Despite the considerable craft that went into making it -- I quite liked the first hour - I don't see TWBB as saying anything profound or at all interesting about capitalism or religion ("Christian hypocrisy is bad? Unbridled capitalism is bad?" Oh, how thought-provoking).
Isn't it though? I love how you've summarized everything that's been said in this twelve page thread trying to pinpoint what it is we see in this film, and it maybe having something to do with those ideas, into two sentences and immediately dismiss it as worthless (denying even our ability to discuss something "interesting"). In this day and age it's just so completely *uninteresting* to take a stab at these things since they clearly have nothing to do with the horrors that take place in the world around us. We should remind our filmmakers that they shouldn't make such broad swipes at obtrusive, hate-mongering, and dangerous ideologies. They should be more specific and cite their sources for godssakes (and they're never going to get their degree with such tired theses.)
Having built us up with great craft to believe "There Will Be a Payoff," what we get is an abrupt, unsatisfying, and not particularly illuminating ending that almost reduces the film to farce. If it were a humbler, smaller film, I'd perhaps be less disappointed, but given the grandiosity of its ambitions, I think this is the least of PTA's films, and the most overrated piece of American cinema in years.
I'll give you cartoonish and unsympathetic (though this might have been what Anderson was going for), but I would say that farce might not be such a bad thing. Since Anderson's first few films had a *ton* of comedy, it doesn't seem to be unexpected for it be used to make a point here. As for the second sentence quoted here, I wish more people made ambitious and grandiose cinema (even if it misses the mark here and there) and I actually thought the term "overrated" was dead and buried. Ah well.

The New Yorker weighs in on Greenwood's There Will Be Blood score.
Alex Ross wrote:...Greenwood writes rugged open-interval motifs, which evoke the vastness of the land; mechanically churning Bartókian ostinatos, announcing the arrival of Plainview’s crew; primitivist drumming to propel an apocalyptic scene in which a derrick catches fire; and long-limbed, sadly ecstatic, Messiaen-like melodies to suggest the emotional isolation of Plainview’s ill-fated son. It’s hard to think of a recent Hollywood production in which music plays such an active role.
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HerrSchreck
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#256 Post by HerrSchreck »

pemmican wrote:I simply cannot understand the fawning-over that this film is receiving from apparently intelligent people and need to re-assert my dismay. Despite the considerable craft that went into making it -- I quite liked the first hour - I don't see TWBB as saying anything profound or at all interesting about capitalism or religion ("Christian hypocrisy is bad? Unbridled capitalism is bad?" Oh, how thought-provoking). As someone else suggested above, in fact, the film is only interesting to the extent that Plainview is humanized and made almost sympathetic (ie., when confessing to his "brother" that he hates everyone); only there does he stop seeming a caricature - only there does his darkness illuminate aspects of our own psyches and open a path to genuine thought. Eli Sunday, alas, remains a cartoon throughout; the business with Plainview's "son" is painfully underdeveloped and his son is never convincing as a character unto himself; there are no other characters in the film of note - even his "brother" is given very little screentime; and what subplots do exist (the pipeline, the business with Standard Oil) feel tacked-on and in no way engaging or particularly meaningful. Having built us up with great craft to believe "There Will Be a Payoff," what we get is an abrupt, unsatisfying, and not particularly illuminating ending that almost reduces the film to farce. If it were a humbler, smaller film, I'd perhaps be less disappointed, but given the grandiosity of its ambitions, I think this is the least of PTA's films, and the most overrated piece of American cinema in years.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, Ray Carney.
I've stayed mostly out of this discussion over the past couple pages because it nags me and there's a force On Display here that bothers me probably even more than Pemmican's dismay over the "fawning" over this film (which I loved):

Why is it important for a "statement" to be derived from a film? Why is it necessary to PTA (who I never got much of a jolt out of but who I'll defend here in this film which I find near-exalted) to be saying anything specific about Oil or Religion.?

What's wrong with saying "X did this, X met Y who gave him hemmoroids and carbuncles, Z came in and changed the dynamic, time went by... then something else happened with A & C and then the story ends"? Why must "good" narrative follow a clearcut path to Social Statement/Commentary for which the director must own up at the plate and take responsibility? Why can he not just present a series of Ambiguous Events, from which it is difficult to extract some ALl ENveloping Life Lesson, and end it... and let the conversations go off as they will?

One guy can't let a horror movie like The Eye (the hong kong version) be enjoyed with out having it's plot extrapolated out as far as possible into Hans Christian Andersonville so that a life lesson is extracted. It's a fucking horror film furchrrissakes! Sometimes the beauty of a story is that it says absolutely nothing specific, beyond presenting a bunch of confused souls fumbling towards Something, and finding Merely Nothing.. which can be extremely moving.

Some of the most beautiful stories reproduce that frustrating inability to Get At ANything Tangible & Concrete in life. The bad don't pay for their sins (nor are they always Bad in all zones), the good are not rewarded (and are not always Good), and in the end life boils down to incosistent thru lines for most people never hewing to their own set of standards nor Doing The "admirable" or noble thing half the time. So what is so wrong with presenting a narrative that says "we start here-- man swinging pickaxe-- then move here-- man lucks into the lifes lottery-- then move here-- a few things happen-- end." I couldn't think of something more destructive to the kind of narrative PTA & DDA fashioned in this film than carping on Obvious Moral Tropes.

Certainly nobody's obligated to like anything.. but if some boob starts coming on with
I simply cannot understand the fawning-over that this film is receiving from apparently intelligent people and need to re-assert my dismay.
I can only say I'm dismayed that my likes and dislikes are tied to your "Dismay On/Off Switch": get yourself rewired, man. You're not the lord on high.
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davebert
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#257 Post by davebert »

I agree with Schreck's reply, but while I found the intensity with which the themes and overarching meaning of this film were picked apart in the last few pages, I take it as par for the course for our forum, where labored deconstruction and film discussion is a hobby enjoyed by most members. I may not agree with many of the points, but it doesn't bother me so much to see them posted (I often learn something or think of something I hadn't, and sometimes I even participate!), and I sure as hell prefer this kind of post-release analyzing and thematic discussion than a constant Aint It Cool-style masturbation over who's getting cast in what, check out this super awesome sneak preview, and mainstream Hollywood slobbering, where the actual films themselves--and their impact--is forgotten after the first release weekend. But this fanboy culture is substituted out for another, perhaps equally fanboyish attention to scholarly interpretations, a few auteurs and their movies.

If you accept and appreciate this culture towards discussing film, which I do, which is why I still read and post here years later, you can't get your panties in a bunch if the discussion gets a little crazy.

And positing There Will Be Blood as the most overrated piece of American cinema in years? I didn't see a Fox Searchlight tag anywhere before the film began! (*rimshot*)
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Belmondo
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#258 Post by Belmondo »

Even though I love Shreck's view that this movie and many others do not need to make a "statement"; I still suspect that:

a) When you base it at least in part on a novel from a famous muckraking socialist author who ALWAYS had something to say
b) And change the title to something very provocative
c) And give it epic length
d) And give us endless audio and music cues that "something is being hammered home here"

Then I think you are free to conclude that, well, something is indeed being hammered home.
I posted my own interpretation earlier and have read many thoughtful comments before and since.
Bad art, and many a bad movie, can be open to endless interpretation if the artist is intentionally ambiguous or too untalented to convey what he wants to say. That is hardly the case here. I believe we are watching a movie that wants to tell us something about capitalism and religion and American Individualism and the toll that is extracted by these concerns.

Shreck is right that a "statement" need not be derived from a film and he is also right in saying that a good narrative need not follow a clearcut path to a social statement or commentary.
Problem is ... "There Will Be Blood" does (in my opinion) indeed follow a clearcut path and makes any number of social statements in the process.
portnoy
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#259 Post by portnoy »

Some thoughts:

1) Anderson's film removes by-and-large the vast majority of political content from Sinclair's book, including the entire second half about labor conflicts. Which is not to say it's not a political film - it absolutely is, but citing Sinclair as a means of showing Anderson's authorial intent seems false in light of Anderson's rewiring of the basic structure of the original work.

2) Does an epic length/scope necessarily signify that the artist is making a defining statement, or does it signify a complex multiplicity of intent and reason? TWBB covers a lot of ground over the course of its 2.5 hours - it talks about the development of the industrial capitalist system/oil economy that is still fueling American production today, as well as the strange bedfellows evangelism and corporatism have made in the 20th and early 21st centuries. It's strongly critical of this relationship, and indeed of nearly everything it portrays, but I think the scale of the film allows it to produce a number of contrasting, nuanced depictions of the relationships between, say, Eli and Plainview, who play each other to unique ideological ends.

3) Does the forcefulness of a director's formal choices necessarily relate to the single-mindedness of his ethical/thematic project? I think this is a good question in general, but specifically with regards to TWBB - does the disruptive nature of the 'underscoring' necessarily correspond to a simplicity of intent? I doubt the masterful and thematically linked use - twice - of Brahms, for example, is necessarily about creating simple statements as much as it is about provoking the audience to relate the actions in the two scenes where the Brahms piece is used. There are parallels in the usage of music throughout the film, repeated images, repeated movements (compare Plainview's actions in the first scene with Plainview's actions in the last) that don't necessarily add up to a statement like 'Unbridled capitalism is bad' but tease out the nuances of the nature of the late 19th/early 20th century robber baron ethos and how it corresponds to various contemporary myths and ideas about American society.

I do believe there are strong ideas being juggled in There Will Be Blood, but I also think the film recognizes the complexities of the relationships between the psychology of American individualism, capitalist excess, the mythos of California, oil, and manifest destiny, and Christian evangelism enough to do more than produce normative statements about the nature of various social forces.
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jbeall
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#260 Post by jbeall »

Belmondo wrote:Even though I love Shreck's view that this movie and many others do not need to make a "statement"; I still suspect that:

a) When you base it at least in part on a novel from a famous muckraking socialist author who ALWAYS had something to say
b) And change the title to something very provocative
c) And give it epic length
d) And give us endless audio and music cues that "something is being hammered home here"

Then I think you are free to conclude that, well, something is indeed being hammered home.
Puns intended? Given that the ending fulfills the promise of the title, and given that this is indeed "hammered home" in quite grisly fashion, what more message do you need? Hasn't the twentieth century been fraught with bloodshed resulting from the clash between unchecked capitalism and fundamentalist religion? (I've chosen the word 'fundamentalist' to be broader than the specifically evangelical protestantism depicted in the film, and perhaps the usage is too broad, but oh well.)

Only the most ideologically strident libertarian would assert that unfettered capitalism doesn't have inherent problems that need to be checked by government. Only the most vile Christo-fascist would assert that there haven't been some vile things done in the name of religion. That said, that doesn't mean one has to reject either capitalism or religion outright, and I think these kinds of ideological discussions are completely beside the point in this film. You can tell a story and let the story speak for itself without injecting a "message" into it. I'm extremely left-of-center, but for me the only message of There Will Be Blood is contained in the title.
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John Cope
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#261 Post by John Cope »

Take heart, pemmican, at least a few of us agree with you. And this is hard for me to say, disposed as I am to love PTA unreservedly. I too have reflected long and hard on this film and my experience of it but, unlike with most others apparently, for me it has not weathered well in hindsight. However much of my own complicated problem with it has to do with the excessively enthusiastic reception it's received which I don't believe is deserved and this has colored my own attitude.
HerrSchreck wrote:So what is so wrong with presenting a narrative that says "we start here-- man swinging pickaxe-- then move here-- man lucks into the lifes lottery-- then move here-- a few things happen-- end." I couldn't think of something more destructive to the kind of narrative PTA & DDA fashioned in this film than carping on Obvious Moral Tropes.
Certainly this is not what makes the film "near-exalted" for you? Though I appreciate your attempt to move us away from reductive binary readings of narrative, I'm really surprised that it wouldn't be the formal qualities in this case that would most attract your praise.

I'd like to link to a few pieces that for me are closer to the mark on this picture: Daniel Kasman, Zach Campbell and Godfrey Cheshire.

I actually like the film considerably more than Cheshire does or probably pemmican for that matter (I particularly love the second hour, for instance). It's just that I'm troubled by the fact that what is weakest about it is what seems to be most celebrated. The generally awful last twenty minutes, for instance, with all their bombast, undermine any previous nuance by rendering it superfluous, merely the surface affects of someone repressing their "real" nature. It's no easy task to balance out the hyperbolic with the genuinely human and Anderson simply doesn't succeed here. There is so much to cherish, however, that my misgivings are almost incidental. All the flaws in this picture seem only to be flaws of Anderson's grand ambition and there is indeed something noble and commendable about that. But it doesn't change the fact that the problems are serious ones which point up a lack of real foresight or insight. Far from being the staggering denouement he may have been striving for, the final scene comes across much more as the product of faltering uncertainty, of not knowing what to emphasize or why. What simply set poorly with me initially has solidified into a symbol of the film's final fatal limitations in the face of its own seeking and striving.

Still, what is superb here is the nuance, while we can still believe it has value. For me the greatest scene in the picture by far is the exchange between Daniel and his faux-brother in which we get what seems to be Plainview at his most unexpurgated and least self-conscious, least closed. That confessional moment should certainly be fixated on as much as the end. I would argue that what it reveals is more honest and more legitimately troubling. Because this is a film about how hatred is codified and made socially applicable, how it can find a place in a social structure built around it as a normative value. The ending then can work but only in a vague, attenuated sort of way, as an acknowledgment not of how this was an inevitability but of how the inevitability is self-made, self-perpetuated. That would be profound and worth while.

Beyond this, it is pleasing that Anderson sets Plainview apart from a too easy association with the expected standard villains of Standard Oil. It does have the welcome effect of broadening the scope of his critique and gives the impression that Anderson is indeed cognizant of the ways in which the driven individual interacts in competition with the notion of an established network, how competition and the "entrepreneurial spirit" can come to be the embodied limits of one driven primarily by will and hate. After all, the American Myth is as much about the veneration of the "individual" as it is about the embrace of capitalism. In fact, it is the assumed inherent value of pure pragmatics and individuality that has shaped the social paramters which allow for the emergence and sustenace of capitalism at all.

I also enjoyed the fine grasp on the delicate particularities of character which Anderson provides for us, especially in that glorious second hour. We get that Plainview uses HW as a prop but what is fascinating is the vague, undefinable menace that enters the situation for Plainview once HW suffers his accident and attitudes toward him shift. On the surface it is because the distraction is unwelcome and, more humanely, that the circumstances fall frustratingly outside of Plainview's ability to ever fully control the outcome. More than this, however, it has to do with the disturbance caused by the expression of vulnerability, the imbalance brought on by the introduction of an acknowledgment of weakness or need. This is great, wise stuff and the sort of thing running through much of Lynch's best work, too.

Once HW is gone, Henry essentially takes his place and fulfills Plainview's need for a confessor of a sort. This is the only configuration he seems to deem possible for an intimate relationship. Still, the burgeoning awareness that Henry is not who he appears to be is disruptive because it forces Plainview to become aware of his own complicity in weakness, exposing himself to someone outside the realm of "family" with all the presumed discretion that supposedly implies.

Because Anderson has crafted such a truly intricate piece, every detail carries more sway than usual. For instance, a friend and I spent ten minutes or so arguing over the five second, Malick-esque, flashback at the end, which should be evidence of how important every little thing is. That was another point in which the real problem emerged, though, which is the fact that Anderson seems to be trying to find a justification for his ending by finding ways to code all the subtle complications of the earlier scenes within the hysterical excess we are left with. In principle, this is a noble goal–in the flashback, for example, I am inclined to think that Anderson was trying to relate something beyond the indication that Plainview was capable of harboring fond memories, inflected with gentleness. I think he was trying to suggest something about the very inevitability of the repression of those feelings, their forcible remove from immediate access. Still, I would have rather seen that conveyed without the “risk” of being read as sentimental which happens when presenting it as an ethereal flashback moment; maybe just stay on DDL’s face for a second or two more once he’s left alone in his office (this opens up another problem, in that I don’t like to be made to feel as though there is any intellectual “risk” implied in embracing sentiment). Or, if a flashback was unavoidable, why not use the scene with Plainview cradling HW after the blast? That's surely the closest to a true moment of empathy or bond of human connection between them.

I will admit that the end works as a thematic bookend, returning us to a kind of primitivism that we saw glimpsed at the beginning, but the problems, which are very significant, remain and are detrimental to the whole. At the very least it’s unwise to leave us with a sequence which encourages a dismissal of the nuance which made the rest of the film worthwhile. Once again, I’d like to think there was another way to do this but perhaps Anderson’s goal really was to legitimize grand, melodramatic gestures. I resist and resent the idea, however, that they need to be legitimized. In other words, melodrama which is complicated with qualifications, whether implicit or explicit (see Todd Haynes), runs the grave risk of blunting its own impact, of rejecting sincere intent for the default position of presumed cynicism or self-conscious glib irony. This may not be entirely fair but it does make melodrama into something else; it cannot be viewed the same way and yet someone seems to think it can.

In respect to the thematic bookending, only the scenes at the beginning really work and they only work because we automatically respond to the portentiousness of them and, if we are fans of PTA, we anticipate a development which will position these moments as the appropriate representation of some latent principle, resistant perhaps to any fulfilled description. But, ultimately, I sense that what he is going for here is just not anywhere near as profound a truth as he thinks it is and that is a depressing conclusion to have to reach. Either that or he doesn't know what he has and mishandles it, choosing to go out with an eye roll inducing orchestral flourish to "complicate" his scenario with an automatic presumption of irony. But the irony is ill formed and ultimately counter-productive; it detracts rather than adding the kind of sophisticated intellectual rigor or challenge he must have seen it to be. In other words, it transforms the whole experience into a very specific register of potential worthy meaning or else reveals it to have been delimited by much more retractive and localized ambitions than was previously thought.

For those interested I would recommend, as much more genuinely profound forays into this territory, the early 90's work of Jon Jost, especially Sure Fire and his masterpiece The Bed You Sleep In. These films are also designed as reflections on the American character, specifically its entrepreneurial spirit and the cost of buying wholesale into that particular mythology. Jost has made a life's work out of examining the nuances of the American psyche and though he often develops seemingly broad portraits of capitalistic evil he never allows us to believe we have some final understanding or grasp on the wholeness of the problem which those characters represent. As he says in his documentary Plain Talk and Common Sense, America was founded on two principles, "get rich" and "find yourself" or "find yourself" and "get rich". The ease of the reversal is an indication of the final fatuousness of this whole foundation. Once again, The Bed You Sleep In could not be more instructive in this way as it bathes in ambiguity and the form of the thing is like a bulwark for it.

I realize some can and will argue that Day-Lewis builds a complex portrait which Anderson then taunts us to reduce at our own risk but I am unconvinced by that as it presupposes a film of great, highly elusive subtlety in which the final conclusions drawn demand to be read almost as epistemological ones. I just don't buy that he is playing on that kind of field but if he is not the ending reveals just how limited the playing field has really been.
chime_on
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#262 Post by chime_on »

John Cope wrote: if a flashback was unavoidable, why not use the scene with Plainview cradling HW after the blast? That's surely the closest to a true moment of empathy or bond of human connection between them.

Well, keep in mind what the flashback actually shows: Plainview tolerating HW's horsing around in front of his business associates for a moment before standing up, shoving him over, and walking toward the oil derrick. I'm not sure that PTA was trying to show a bond of human connection there.
Last edited by chime_on on Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm

#263 Post by HerrSchreck »

davebert wrote:I agree with Schreck's reply, but while I found the intensity with which the themes and overarching meaning of this film were picked apart in the last few pages, I take it as par for the course for our forum, where labored deconstruction and film discussion is a hobby enjoyed by most members. I may not agree with many of the points, but it doesn't bother me so much to see them posted (I often learn something or think of something I hadn't, and sometimes I even participate!), and I sure as hell prefer this kind of post-release analyzing and thematic discussion than a constant Aint It Cool-style masturbation
Of course discussion about the possibilities of "directorial statement" or Anything Else are to be expected, dave. My issue is with folks who are lamenting the opposite, man! Recall I said something like "what's wrong with making a film starts here-- goes here-- here-- end, and let the conversations go off as they will"??. I WANT the conversations to go off as they will. It's the crux of the biscuit of my post. If folks need such concrete personal thematic commitment from directors, then the whole Interpretive Discussion Thing sorta dries up into Aint It Cool Newsville.

The buncha panties inna bunch which knots my bvd's are folks who groan that the director is not telling you precisely what that conversation should be. And if you're down with having a non-Aint It Cool News discussion, then have it. I'd have loved to have heard-- instead of "I'm cool with everything, chill son"-- you talk about whether you do or don't agree that a director is obligated to hold up flashcards to the audience regarding What His Statement Is. Isn't that the essence of the past few pages in a nutshell?
John Cope wrote:Certainly this is not what makes the film "near-exalted" for you? Though I appreciate your attempt to move us away from reductive binary readings of narrative, I'm really surprised that it wouldn't be the formal qualities in this case that would most attract your praise.

I'm not sure I'm clear on what "this" is... do you mean the "method of unfolding the narrative"? If that's what you meant, then "no": the movie itself as a whole was. I'm not into formalsturbation, never was.

But I strongly believe that the almost random sense of the unfolding, the (for me) almost incidental feeling of narrative thru-line, the quietness of it's temperature at times, it gave the proceedings a very spacious and quiet sense of proceeding, where the director himself was nowhere to be found. The film gave the viewer plenty of room to inhabit the unfolding and process in his own poetic terms... I found little to no manipulative underlining of character and event, saying "this man is a villain to be despised", "this is our hero and Very Good SOul", "this is our moment of catharsis and beauty"... I found no "voice of liberal reason" popping in to speak for the betterment of all mankind, tying things all up in a bow for 21st Century America.

Of course the film is an unflattering series of images reflecting on the corrupting tendencies of wealth, the control of oil and religious hypocrcy. But this has nothing to do with the kind of filmmaking I see on display here, where an editorial voice is present. That's akind of filmmaking where someone comes into the picture and speaks virtually to today's audience, or speaks in the directors voice with cures for our ills, or uses his mise en scene to demonize his character, etc. This is all very simple stuff that I mean, and is divorced from the simple fact of Presenting A Kind Of Material. Certainly we can likely conclude via PTA's choice of this material in today's times that he is providing an indictment of greed. But a few decades ago in Hollywood this wasn't always so-- simply Making A Film wasnt proof that you believed everything that was in it. This is why we study films-- particularly older ones-- in search of the injection editorial comment.

The fact that folks walk out of the theater on Plainview Kicks, talking and acting like him for a few days until the spell wears off, is proof that PTA did something a bit more nuanced and balanced than merely presenting an Eisensteinian Capitalist Demon. And there is a mother lode of interpretaive possibility here in terms of what is targeted: who is the guilty party here? Is it the fact of the existence of oil itself? Is it the greed inherent in human nature? Plainview is such a wildly singular type of human that holding him up as a template for Human Tendency is problematic i think. Is it railing against the prospect of monopoly? Capitalism per se? Religion itself?

The merit of the picture is that the characters are very specifically drawn... they are who they are there and then in the pic, and they don't read to me like stand-ins for entire National Players. And I really don't see an activistic tone, I dont see a solution to any of this presented. If anything I see the film as illustration that "this is the way life is, was, and always will be, and will never change.." and it's very difficult to walk away thinking of solutions. In the end, a mere story has been told. The thing one can walk away with is something exactly the opposite than what many anti-capitalist forces may "want" poeple to get from it, which is:

Be a sonofabitch. Be a hard, grim, callous, masculine, bigminded, charismatic, blast-talking sonofabitch. It's the only way to become The Big Man in the world.

That well may be the key statement of the film. The biggest wildest most forceful personality wins. Pussies drown. fadeout.
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#264 Post by Grand Illusion »

I also disagree with anti-capitalist readings of the film. PTA may well be making a statement about extreme capitalism where the individualist will-to-succeed becomes a greedy, misanthropic need to escape.

If he's doing this, however, he's presenting the drawbacks in a very capitalist, individualist manner. He's not really showing the collective harm. In fact, the only person who comes back to be revealed as cheated out of their land is a supporting player with ties to the equally greedy Sunday.

There's no scenes of the environmental externalities from oil drilling. There's no mass uprising against Plainview. Most of the damage is put in perspective of how it relates to Daniel. He is the one that descends further and further into madness.

Even HW's injury is more logically attributed to poor supervision of a child rather than the entire economic theory of capitalism. And in terms of this injury, Daniel is the one that ends up less equipped to deal with the world than the physically handicapped HW. It's Daniel that is further alienated from his son by his own personal greed and misanthropy. And let's not forget that the sympathetic HW is also an oil man.

So if PTA is trying to warn us of the impulses behind capitalism and the pursuit of wealth, he does so by appealing to our own individualist mindset. Daniel is the most unhappy. And from a pure self-interest standpoint, we as the audience do not want to become him. He's finished.
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davebert
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#265 Post by davebert »

HerrSchreck wrote:I'd have loved to have heard-- instead of "I'm cool with everything, chill son"-- you talk about whether you do or don't agree that a director is obligated to hold up flashcards to the audience regarding What His Statement Is. Isn't that the essence of the past few pages in a nutshell?
Sure, I can enter my view in the fray, but I'm not sure it offers an alarmingly fresh view on anything. I don't think the director is required to reveal "His Statement," insofar as s/he shouldn't be penalized for refusing to do so. Of all the things that make great films, I think the urge to make a statement is what pushes a lot of masterpieces to get made, but also drowns a lot of technically-fine movies in the swamps of didacticism, naivety and simpleness. This has especially been true throughout the history of Oscar-baiting feel-good "liberal" dramas, a recent example of which would be Crash, which chooses to slam the fucking book on your head at the risk of alienating everyone who understands a bit of racism 101 already. For a director whose made a very fine, perhaps even great film, to refuse to engage on a level they either don't understand or don't want involved, is their decision and I respect that. Besides, it keeps the critics busy telling everyone what the director meant, and the wide variety of interpretations are often fascinating and enlightening.

Demanding PTA to go further into specific criticisms and revelations, rather than operating in broad Themes, would not, I believe, serve There Will Be Blood, and I would certainly take the epic, cruel but human story of Daniel Plainview as it stands than pump the piece up further with further explanations of what, how the church and capitalism collude? How the oil industry's current state compares to its past? There is enough literature and documentaries etc. etc. out there to satisfy all of these thoughts without further bloating the story of an individual's single-minded rise and fall from power.

This is one of those movies where I walked out relishing the chance to see it again in HD, but since it's distributed by Paramount Vantage... does that mean no Blu-Ray?
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cdnchris
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#266 Post by cdnchris »

davebert wrote:This is one of those movies where I walked out relishing the chance to see it again in HD, but since it's distributed by Paramount Vantage... does that mean no Blu-Ray?
I think Disney actually has the home video distribution rights. Both Paramount and Miramax were behind this and No Country, and No Country is coming on Blu-Ray from Disney.
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Marcel Gioberti
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#267 Post by Marcel Gioberti »

Thank you for giving me hope. This film is finally coming to my town tomorrow night!
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Jeff
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#268 Post by Jeff »

cdnchris wrote:I think Disney actually has the home video distribution rights. Both Paramount and Miramax were behind this and No Country, and No Country is coming on Blu-Ray from Disney.
Unfortunately the situation is reversed with There Will Be Blood. While No Country and Blood were both Miramax/Paramount Vantage co-productions, they have slightly different distribution arrangements. With No Country, Miramax had domestic rights and Paramount had foreign. With Blood, Paramount has domestic rights and Miramax has foreign.
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cdnchris
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#269 Post by cdnchris »

Jeff wrote:
cdnchris wrote:I think Disney actually has the home video distribution rights. Both Paramount and Miramax were behind this and No Country, and No Country is coming on Blu-Ray from Disney.
Unfortunately the situation is reversed with There Will Be Blood. While No Country and Blood were both Miramax/Paramount Vantage co-productions, they have slightly different distribution arrangements. With No Country, Miramax had domestic rights and Paramount had foreign. With Blood, Paramount has domestic rights and Miramax has foreign.
Oh well, good news for me.
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domino harvey
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#270 Post by domino harvey »

Well finally caught this. I don't like Radiohead but even I can give this fantastic score its due, particularly in the oil derrick explosion scene. I know it seems like a foregone conclusion but no nominated actor in recent memory has ever deserved the award more than Day-Lewis for this film. The film is a complex performance piece and without his stellar work the film would never be able to achieve what it achieves.

On the popular topic of things people in the audience said, I had to share this bon mot uttered by an elderly man while leaving the theater. After getting up from his seat as soon as the end titles began: "Just like the last movie we saw: A goofy ending and no redeeming value." I felt just a little closer to sympathizing with Daniel Plainview at that moment.
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Jeff
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#271 Post by Jeff »

domino harvey wrote:I had to share this bon mot uttered by an elderly man while leaving the theater. After getting up from his seat as soon as the end titles began: "Just like the last movie we saw: A goofy ending and no redeeming value." I felt just a little closer to sympathizing with Daniel Plainview at that moment.
What do you want to bet the last movie he saw was No Country For Old Men? I've started carrying a wooden bowling pin to the cinema with me for just such occasions.
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Marcel Gioberti
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#272 Post by Marcel Gioberti »

I have a quick question about the music. Is it part of the same music used in all the trailers that are circulating?
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Antoine Doinel
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#273 Post by Antoine Doinel »

Yes.

From the PTA fansite Cigarettes & Red Vines, some news about the DVD release:
now for something equally disheartening for most of you: since it seems there will be blood dvd information has begun popping up around the internet, i think it’s safe to let you know the few things i learned about the dvd release when i was last with paul:

> there is no commentary track, nor will there ever probably be one again. paul mentioned to me how alot of the buzz has been taken from doing them because people quote them back verbatim to him in interviews and fun/flippant comments are regarded as gospel. (not a quote, but the gist of what was said)

> the behind-the-scenes footage we reported ages ago that was being shot by austin lynch will, as of this point, not be included on the dvd as a ‘that moment’ style feature. paul said it all turned out wonderfully but that the footage might take away the magic of the film itself saying “it’s just a bunch of people in a desert standing around making a movie.”

> there is an extremely old documentary/footage that was found about mining and oil production from the era. they are planning to cut in jonny greenwood’s score over top of it and make a presentation out of it.
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#274 Post by Nothing »

I guess I'm going to have to weigh in on the score. The most effective music in this film is, without a doubt, the Brahms and the Arvo Part. Greenwood's score is both repetitive and musically immature, with little to do other than blithely rip off the well-used string techniques of some real composers. If you want that kind of sound then go to the source! Despite containing no original music, the way The Shining adapts and times the music of Penderecki, Ligeti and others genuinely does make for one of the greatest film scores of all time. Here, the results are bland at best, unconvincing at worst.
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Steven H
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#275 Post by Steven H »

Nothing wrote:I guess I'm going to have to weigh in on the score. The most effective music in this film is, without a doubt, the Brahms and the Arvo Part. Greenwood's score is both repetitive and musically immature, with little to do other than blithely rip off the well-used string techniques of some real composers. If you want that kind of sound then go to the source! Despite containing no original music, the way The Shining adapts and times the music of Penderecki, Ligeti and others genuinely does make for one of the greatest film scores of all time. Here, the results are bland at best, unconvincing at worst.
I agree with you about The Shining's score, which is maybe my favorite film score of all time (though there's a long list.) However, some of the things you posted are just loaded to death with problems, like: is repetition a bad thing? What is "musically mature" opposed to "immature" and how does one judge this? Who's ripping off what? Bland is the last word I would describe it with, even if I put on the hat of someone who doesn't like it.

It also seems odd the very idea that if someone wants to use a certain "type" of music in their film, someone influenced, inspired, or imitating that isn't good enough, you have to go "back to the source" every time. If anything would be offensively and horribly bland, that would be it. I'm not really knocking your not liking it, but some of the reasoning strikes me as worth fleshing out.
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