Alternative British List

[Awesome Welles]

In fact all his post Privilege films are listed on IMDB as non British. I wouldn't describe any of the ones I have seen as essentially British though I would be happy to include The Gladiators as British as feel it is one of those International films which has no specific home.

[zedz]

Given Watkins' well-publicised views on his treatment by the British film industry (and just about everyone else), I doubt he'd want any of the films he made 'in exile' to be considered British. If you're going to count them, you might as well make all of Hitchcock's American films up for grabs as well.

[yoshimori]

Edvard Munch is listed on the IMDB as a Sweden/Norway production. It would be a considerable stretch to describe it as a British film, and I doubt Watkins would want to either. Similarly, Punishment Park is American, La Commune French.

You guys can do as you like re counting the votes, of course. To me, Watkins is British and his movies, whatever their language or shooting location or whatever he may think about his Britishness, feel British. Similarly, Greenaway.

On the other hand, I've included two "British" Kubrick films, which don't seem to me particularly British - though neither do they seem particularly American. ... And Blow-up ...

What a nightmare!

[Awesome Welles]

Only two lists so far. Can I just remind voters that the deadline is 31st March 2008.

[Awesome Welles]

A little over a week to go. I'm hoping there will be a flurry of lists at the last moment...

[MichaelB]

You guys can do as you like re counting the votes, of course. To me, Watkins is British and his movies, whatever their language or shooting location or whatever he may think about his Britishness, feel British. Similarly, Greenaway.

Which means one hell of a lot of classic Hollywood films are therefore not American - Double Indemnity, for starters!

For what it's worth, I always thought the recent Films Act definition of "a British film" was one of the more sensible attempts at grasping this particular nettle - it simply states that a British film is one where more than 70% of the budget has been spent on British talent and facilities.

So by that yardstick Edvard Munch clearly wouldn't qualify (and I agree with this: I've never regarded it as anything other than an Norwegian film), but it should allow films like Deep End and The Elephant Man to slip through the net.

[Awesome Welles]

1. Barry Lyndon (Stanley Kubrick, 1975)
2. A Clockwork Orange (Stanley Kubrick, 1971)
3. O, Lucky Man! (Lindsay Anderson, 1973)
4. The Third Man (Carol Reed, 1949)
5. Performance (Donal Cammell, Nicolas Roeg, 1970)
6. The Lavender Hill Mob (Charles Crichton, 1951)
7. A Matter of Life and Death (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1946)
8. Blow Up (Michelangelo Antonioni, 1966)
9. The Innocents (Jack Clayton, 1961)
10. The Ladykillers (Alexander MAckendrick, 1955)
11. If…. (Lindsay Anderson, 1969)
12. Black Narcissus (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1947)
13. The Red Shoes (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1948)
14. The Thirty Nine Steps (Alfred Hitchcock, 1935)
15. The War Game (Peter Watkins, 1965)
16. Kind Hearts and Coronets (Robert Hamer, 1949)
17. Village of the Damned (Wolf Rilla, 1960)
18. Peeping Tom (Michael Powell, 1960)
19. The Fallen Idol (Carol Reed, 1948)
20. Dead of Night (Alberto Cavalcanti, Charles Crichton, Basil Dearden, Robert Hamer, 1945)
21. The Lady Vanishes (Alfred Hitchcock, 1938)
22. Saturday Night and Sunday Morning (Karel Reisz, 1960)
23. The Italian Job (Peter Collinson, 1969)
24. The Blue Lamp (Basil Dearden, 1950)
25. The Dam Busters (Michael Anderson, 1955)
26. Scream and Scream Again (Gordon Hessler, 1969)
27. Passport to Pimlico (Henry Cornelius, 1949)
28. Sexy Beast (Jonathan Glazer, 2001)
29. The Elephant Man (David Lynch, 1980)
30. Sleuth (Joseph L. Mankiewicz, 1972)
31. And Now the Screaming Starts (Roy Ward Baker, 1973)
32. The Ipcress File (Sidney J. Furie, 1965)
33. London (Patrick Keiller, 1994)
34. The Man in the White Suit (Alexander Mackendrickm, 1951)
35. Accident (Joseph Losey, 1967)
36. Brief Encounter (David Lean, 1945)
37. Shaun of the Dead (Edgar Wright, 2004)
38. Wallace and Gromit in the Wrong Trousers, 1993)
39. Brazil (Terry Gilliam, 1985)
40. Morvern Callar (Lynne Ramsay, 2002)
41. This is England (Shane Meadows, 2007)
42. Dr. Terror’s House of Horrors (Freddie Francis, 1965)
43. Get Carter (Mike Hodges, 1971)
44. A Fish Called Wanda (Charles Crichton, 1988)
45. Croupier (Mike Hodges, 1998)
46. The Wicker Man (Robin Hardy, 1974)
47. Monty Python’s Life of Brian (Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, 1979)
48. Britannia Hospital (Lindsay Anderson, 1982)
49. The Long Good Friday (John Mackenzie, 1980)
50. The House that Dripped Blood (Peter Duffell, 1970)

So this lists project went very badly. Only three lists submitted unless I receive quite a few lists today I don't think there will be much of a list. I guess a lot of people have found it to be quite problematic (cf Yoshimori submitting 49 films). I also feel personally that my submissions of Barry Lyndon, A Clockwork Orange and The Elephant Man are problematic, yet their source material is British, British crew and probably money too but I don't feel like I am really submitting British films, not like when saying O, Lucky Man! is a British film. Perhaps this one was best left to the BFI.

[MichaelB]

I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that A Clockwork Orange is a British film - it's based on a British novel, it's set in Britain, it was filmed on British locations, its cast is entirely British, its crew is mostly British, and I don't think a single frame of footage was exposed, developed or edited outside Britain.

Just about the only non-British elements are its director (who was about to notch up a decade as a permanent UK resident) and the composer of the electronic elements of the score (the main theme of which was based on the work of a British composer).

So if it isn't British, what is it?

(I concede that many of Kubrick's other films are more problematic in this respect, but I don't think there's much serious ground for dispute with this title - unless you're such a dogmatic auteurist that you regard The Private Life of Henry VIII and The Four Feathers as being Hungarian!)

[Awesome Welles]

Perhaps I do place too much emphasis on the auteur and I agree it is wrong to do this, of course I don't think as films as belonging to the country of their director.

[MichaelB]

Perhaps I do place too much emphasis on the auteur and I agree it is wrong to do this, of course I don't think as films as belonging to the country of their director.

Well, if you did, you'd have to disqualify these titles on your list, as they all have non-British directorial involvement:

1. Barry Lyndon (Stanley Kubrick, 1975)
2. A Clockwork Orange (Stanley Kubrick, 1971)
7. A Matter of Life and Death (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1946)
8. Blow Up (Michelangelo Antonioni, 1966)
12. Black Narcissus (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1947)
13. The Red Shoes (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1948)
17. Village of the Damned (Wolf Rilla, 1960)
20. Dead of Night (Alberto Cavalcanti, Charles Crichton, Basil Dearden, Robert Hamer, 1945)
22. Saturday Night and Sunday Morning (Karel Reisz, 1960)
29. The Elephant Man (David Lynch, 1980)
30. Sleuth (Joseph L. Mankiewicz, 1972)
32. The Ipcress File (Sidney J. Furie, 1965)
35. Accident (Joseph Losey, 1967)
39. Brazil (Terry Gilliam, 1985)
47. Monty Python’s Life of Brian (Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, 1979)

Personally, I think common sense is the best way forward, as in most similar cases!

[Awesome Welles]

Well, if you did, you'd have to disqualify these titles on your list...

Exactly!

Personally, I think common sense is the best way forward, as in most similar cases!

Which is what I said at the beginning of this process, it's just a shame it didn't gather more interest. I would have been interested to see people's favouring of some unknown rarities. Joseph Losey being an example - a director I have only recently begun to sample and I'm sure there are more, similar cases (of lesser known directors - to me at least).

[Person]

Well, if you did, you'd have to disqualify these titles on your list, as they all have non-British directorial involvement:

I included William Wyler's, The Collector (1965), too.

I feel that a "British" film is one made by a British production company with a mostly British cast. A "Kubrick" film is one directed or "made" by Stanley Kubrick. A Clockwork Orange is a British film made by Kubrick. It's certainly not an "American" film. Strangers on a Train is an American film, directed by Hitchcock. And so on.

[Cold Bishop]

FYI... I'm hoping to have a list in before the end of the day.

...or not. It appears we have forgone the original plan of a collective list, no?

[MichaelB]

Strict alphabetical order:

Billy Liar (John Schlesinger, 1963)
Black Narcissus (Michael Powell/Emeric Pressburger, 1947)
Brazil (Terry Gilliam, 1985)
Brighton Rock (John Boulting, 1947)
The Company of Wolves (Neil Jordan, 1984)
Control (Anton Corbijn, 2007)
A Cottage on Dartmoor (Anthony Asquith, 1929)
The Devils (Ken Russell, 1971)
A Diary for Timothy (Humphrey Jennings, 1946)
Distant Voices Still Lives (Terence Davies, 1988)
Don't Look Now (Nicolas Roeg, 1973)
Fires Were Started (Humphrey Jennings, 1943)
Gallivant (Andrew Kötting, 1997)
Get Carter (Mike Hodges, 1971)
Gosford Park (Robert Altman, 2001)
Green for Danger (Sidney Gilliat, 1946)
Gregory's Girl (Bill Forsyth, 1980)
Hellraiser (Clive Barker, 1987)
The Innocents (Jack Clayton, 1961)
Kes (Ken Loach, 1969)
Kind Hearts and Coronets (Robert Hamer, 1949)
The Ladykillers (Alexander Mackendrick, 1955)
Lawrence of Arabia (David Lean, 1962)
The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp (Michael Powell/Emeric Pressburger, 1943)
Life of Brian (Terry Jones, 1979)
London (Patrick Keiller, 1994)
The Long Good Friday (John Mackenzie, 1979)
Love and Death on Long Island (Richard Kwietniowski, 1997)
Love on the Wing (Norman McLaren, 1938)
Moonlighting (Jerzy Skolimowski, 1982)
Naked (Mike Leigh, 1993)
Nil By Mouth (Gary Oldman, 1997)
O Lucky Man! (Lindsay Anderson, 1973)
On Her Majesty's Secret Service (Peter Hunt, 1969)
Peeping Tom (Michael Powell, 1960)
Performance (Donald Cammell/Nicolas Roeg, 1970)
Piccadilly (E.A. Dupont, 1929)
Quadrophenia (Franc Roddam, 1979)
The Queen of Spades (Thorold Dickinson, 1949)
Ratcatcher (Lynne Ramsay, 1999)
Repulsion (Roman Polanski, 1965)
A Room with a View (James Ivory, 1985)
The Servant (Joseph Losey, 1963)
Straw Dogs (Sam Peckinpah, 1971)
The Third Man (Carol Reed, 1949)
The Thirty-Nine Steps (Alfred Hitchcock, 1935)
Witchfinder General (Michael Reeves, 1968)
Withnail & I (Bruce Robinson, 1986)
The Wrong Trousers (Nick Park, 1993)
A Zed and Two Noughts (Peter Greenaway, 1985)

[Awesome Welles]

I'd be happy to extend the deadline by a week (as I won't have time to tally results this week anyway), so that means people can still submit the lists as I will tally for a collective list eventually and Michael if you want your list to be in contention you will have to try and rank your list.

[MichaelB]

I'd be happy to extend the deadline by a week (as I won't have time to tally results this week anyway), so that means people can still submit the lists as I will tally for a collective list eventually and Michael if you want your list to be in contention you will have to try and rank your list.

Impossible, I'm afraid - I just can't make value judgements to the effect that Love on the Wing is "better" than Kind Hearts and Coronets. It's hard enough drawing up a shortlist of fifty titles (and I'm frankly dreading taking part in the 2012 Sight & Sound poll!)

On the other hand, you could always give every title on my list 25 points...

[Awesome Welles]

Impossible, I'm afraid - I just can't make value judgements to the effect that Love on the Wing is "better" than Kind Hearts and Coronets. It's hard enough drawing up a shortlist of fifty titles (and I'm frankly dreading taking part in the 2012 Sight & Sound poll!)

On the other hand, you could always give every title on my list 25 points...

Fair enough, your list won't be included but I really value your input so thanks for that.

Good luck with the 2012 poll, what a nightmare! As far as I am aware many people didn't rank their films, though S&S treated them as ranked, or did they?.

[Awesome Welles]

The results are in. The number at the end denotes the amount of votes in total.

1. Barry Lyndon (Stanley Kubrick, 1975) 145
2. The Life and Death of Col. Blimp (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1943) 139
4. A Clockwork Orange (Stanley Kubrick, 1971) 139
5. A Matter of Life and Death (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1946) 136
6. The Innocents (Jack Clayton, 1961) 134
7. Performance (Donal Cammell, Nicolas Roeg, 1970) 133
8. Black Narcissus (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1947) 132
9. The Third Man (Carol Reed, 1949) 126
10. The Red Shoes (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1948) 124
11. Peeping Tom (Michael Powell, 1960) 111
12. I Know Where I'm Going (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1945) 95
13. Blow Up (Michelangelo Antonioni, 1966) 90
14. The Ladykillers (Alexander Mackendrick, 1955) 81
15. The Servant (Joseph Losey, 1963) 80
16. The Thirty Nine Steps (Alfred Hitchcock, 1935) 78
17. The Fallen Idol (Carol Reed, 1948) 72
18. Don't Look Now (Nicolas Roeg, 1973) 71
19. If…. (Lindsay Anderson, 1969) 70
20. Get Carter (Mike Hodges, 1971) 68
20. Sleuth (Joseph L. Mankiewicz, 1972) 68
22. The Man Who Fell to Earth (1976) 68
23. Saturday Night and Sunday Morning (Karel Reisz, 1960) 65
24. Seance on a Wet Afternoon (Bryan Forbes, 1964) 64
25. Kes (Ken Loach, 1969) 62
25. The Lavender Hill Mob (Charles Crichton, 1951) 62
26. Monty Python & the Holy Grail (Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, 1975) 61
27. The Tales of Hoffmann (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1951) 59
29. Lawrence of Arabia (David Lean, 1962) 53
29. The Abominable Dr. Phibes (Robert Fuest, 1971) 53
31. Vera Drake (Mike Leigh, 2004) 51
32. Distant Voices, Still Lives (Terence Davies, 1988) 47
33. The Long Good Friday (John Mackenzie, 1980) 46
34. Brazil (Terry Gilliam, 1985) 45
35. Brief Encounter (David Lean, 1945) 43
36. Morvern Callar (Lynne Ramsay, 2002) 39
37. Accident (Joseph Losey, 1967) 33
37. The Go-Between (Joseph Losey, 1970) 33
39. Repulsion (Roman Polanski, 1965) 21
40. Sabotage (Alfred Hitchcock, 1936) 17

Including MichaelB's list at 25 points for each films this makes the list look like this:

1. The Life and Death of Col. Blimp (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1943) 164
2. The Innocents (Jack Clayton, 1961) 159
3. Performance (Donal Cammell, Nicolas Roeg, 1970) 158
4. Black Narcissus (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1947) 157
5. The Third Man (Carol Reed, 1949) 151
6. Barry Lyndon (Stanley Kubrick, 1975) 145
7. A Clockwork Orange (Stanley Kubrick, 1971) 139
8. A Matter of Life and Death (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1946) 136
8. Peeping Tom (Michael Powell, 1960) 136
10. The Red Shoes (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1948) 124
11. The Ladykillers (Alexander Mackendrick, 1955) 106
12. The Servant (Joseph Losey, 1963) 105
13. The Thirty Nine Steps (Alfred Hitchcock, 1935) 103
14. Don't Look Now (Nicolas Roeg, 1973) 96
15. I Know Where I'm Going (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1945) 95
16. Get Carter (Mike Hodges, 1971) 93
17. Blow Up (Michelangelo Antonioni, 1966) 90
18. Kes (Ken Loach, 1969) 87
19. Lawrence of Arabia (David Lean, 1962) 78
20. A Zed and Two Noughts (Peter Greenaway, 1985) 75
21. O Lucky Man! (Lindsay Anderson, 1973) 73
22. Distant Voices Still Lives (Terence Davies, 1988) 72
22. The Fallen Idol (Carol Reed, 1948) 72
24. Brief Encounter (David Lean, 1945) 71
24. The Long Good Friday (John Mackenzie, 1980) 71
26. Brazil (Terry Gilliam, 1985) 70
27. If…. (Lindsay Anderson, 1969) 70
28. Sleuth (Joseph L. Mankiewicz, 1972) 68
29. The Man Who Fell to Earth (Nicolas Roeg, 1976) 68
30. Ratcatcher (Lynne Ramsay, 1999) 67
31. Saturday Night and Sunday Morning (Karel Reisz, 1960) 65
32. Seance on a Wet Afternoon (Bryan Forbes, 1964) 64
33. The Lavender Hill Mob (Charles Crichton, 1951) 62
34. Monty Python & the Holy Grail (Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, 1975) 61
34. The Devils (Ken Russell, 1971) 61
36. Kind Hearts and Coronets (Robert Hamer, 1949) 60
37. The Tales of Hoffmann (Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger, 1951) 59
38. Witchfinder General (Michael Reeves, 1968) 56
39. The Abominable Dr. Phibes (Robert Fuest, 1971) 53
40. Vera Drake (Mike Leigh, 2004) 51
41. A Diary for Timothy (Humphrey Jennings, 1946) 50
42. Brighton Rock (John Boulting, 1947) 48
43. Billy Liar (John Schlesinger, 1963) 47
44. Repulsion (Roman Polanski, 1965) 46
45. London (Patrick Keiller, 1994) 43
46. The Queen of Spades (Thorold Dickinson, 1949) 40
47. Morvern Callar (Lynne Ramsay, 2002) 39
48. Fires Were Started (Humphrey Jennings, 1943) 38
49. Accident (Joseph Losey, 1967) 33
50. The Go-Between (Joseph Losey, 1970) 33

[Kenji]

Some films by American + non-British directors are more British than others! I'm taking a wide view, with British-funded + based, + British-set/subject with British stars

1.2001: A Space Odyssey (Kubrick)
2.Kind Hearts + Coronets (Hamer)
3.The Thief of Bagdad (Berger, Powell, Whelan)
4.Dr Strangelove (Kubrick)
5.Brazil (Gilliam)
6.Street of Crocodiles (Quay bros)
7.Lawrence of Arabia (Lean)
8.The Red Shoes (Powell, Pressburger)
9.The Shining (Kubrick)
10.The Third Man (Reed)
11.The Great Escape (Sturges)
12.The Piano Tuner of Earthquakes (Quay bros)
13.The 39 Steps (Hitchcock)
14.Barry Lyndon (Kubrick)
15.The Innocents (Clayton)
16.Flatworld (Greaves)
17.A Matter of Life and Death (Powell, Pressburger)
18.Goldfinger (Hamilton)
19.The Wrong Trousers (Park)
20.The Draughtsman's Contract (Greenaway)
21.Great Expectations (Lean)
22.Hope and Glory (Boorman)
23.The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp (Powell, Pressburger)
24.The English Patient (Minghella)
25.The Life of Brian (Jones)
26.Black Narcissus (Powell, Pressburger)
27.The Servant (Losey)
28.The Elephant Man (Lynch)
29.Song of Ceylon (Wright)
30.If (Anderson)
31.My Childhood (Douglas)
32.Howards End (Ivory)
33.Kes (Loach)
34.Don't Look Now (Roeg)
35.The World at War (BBC TV)
36.The Wicker Man (Hardy)
37.A Fish Called Wanda (Crichton)
38.Topsy Turvy (Lean)
39.The Lavender Hill Mob (Crichton)
40.The Cook, the Thief, his Wife and her Lover (Greenaway)
41.Bridge on the River Kwai (Lean)
42.A Room with a View (Ivory)
43.Hopscotch (Neame)
44.A Canterbury Tale (Powell, Pressburger)
45.Fallen Idol (Reed)
46.Hedd Wyn (Turner)
47.The Power of Nightmares (Curtis)
48.Swinging the Lambeth Walk (Lye)
49.A Shot in the Dark (Edwards)
50.Orlando (Potter)

[exte]

Trainspotting at number 10?