302 Harakiri

[tryavna]

it is pointless to bring it up as something complex and fascinating. Compare it to the films Contempt and 8 1/2, both released relatively shortly after, and the huge gap in sophistication between them (at least in regards to stories about stories).

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm holding up the narrative structure of Harakiri as some sort of paragon of sophistication or cinematic complexity. I said nothing of the sort. I merely mentioned in passing that I, personally, happened to find the structure of the film fascinating. In fact, my original quote was:

The many layerings of the film's narrative still fascinate me -- including its meta-level. It is a story about telling a story, to some degree.

I'd be the first to admit that Godard's experimentations around the same time are far more radical. What I like about Kobayashi's handling of the material is how the facts of the story are revealed, let's say, "novelistically." We're slowly exposed to the story as Nakadai tells it. Is it radical? No. Is it complex? Yes, I still think so to some degree. I think the best point of comparison for what I mean (or the impression I get from the movie) is Ford Maddox Ford's The Good Soldier, which employs a similar device over a much longer period of time. Perhaps that makes Harakiri somewhat less cinematic -- certainly less cinematically radical -- than Godard's films. But I don't think it makes it any less "fascinating."

And frankly, I don't like being told whether I'm allowed to find a particular film or a particular aspect of a film "fascinating" or not.

[ando]

On the contrary, Mizoguchi practically lived off of simple projection and cliches. From his early to his late work its the style that's revolutionary, not so much the subject matter

I disagree (obviously). Or perhaps you're misunderstanding what I mean by projection. I'll be clearer. The kind of projection I'm talking about involves the director's moral imperatives which really have little to do with the predicament or personalities of the characters involved. But as I alluded to earlier, with any fimmaker worth his or her salt, narrative content and method of its unfolding are usually interwoven. Any argument involving a film director's originality in terms of storyline seems pointless as the most memorable narratives are regarded less for their content and more for the manner in which they are told. Mizuguchi's style in forming a narrative is then of paramount importance - as is Kobayashi's style. Any moral imperative that either director may wish to impart is tied in with his style or method of presentation. This is my point. And with this Kobayachi film I can spot it fairly early on in the film, which is not to say that I don't spot it in any given Mizogushi film, but Mizogushi is never as deliberate or painstaking as Kobayashi in presenting any moral imperative. Kobayashi clearly had a deliberate moral objective in telling his story - so deliberate, in fact, that it feels almost like a polemic. His objective; specifically, the attitude he has toward the hypocrisy and moral degeneracy of the clan informs the entire tone of movie. It's what makes it feel so dreadfully long.

[Steven H]

I'll give you that Mizoguchi's distance does add a certain level of ambiguity, but that usually disappears quickly in his films (for me at least.) Maybe this has more to do with their styles. Mizoguchi used long takes and kind of "hid" the activities in plain sight, while Kobayashi used montage in a game of "show and tell". I think both wore their morality on their sleeves, but Kobayashi's more relatively standard direction is the more obvious.

[ando]

you might find K's Samurai Rebellion more interesting.

Well, I certainly did. I found it more compelling, really. I felt he extended and developed his anti-authoritarian stance in Samurai Rebellion. But, more than that, he made a powerful and fairly unforgettable portrait of humanity - almost Brechtian in its bleakness, certainly Brecht-like in terms of the spare/streamlined visual compositions. But I'll elucidate further in the SR thread...

[Michael Kerpan]

Finally seen. Interesting, but ...

I see Kobayashi as being on the same level as his mentor Kinoshita. Earnest, well-intentioned, very script-bound, with flashes of visual brilliance -- but not consistent in terms of visual imagination.

I much prefer Uchida and Imai (not to mention Kurosawa).

The interviews included as extras are quite delightful.

[Awesome Welles]

very script-bound, with flashes of visual brilliance -- but not consistent in terms of visual imagination.

Interesting. I think I have found his visual imagination to be fairly consistent and certainly see his scripts as very well developed, the fact that you see him as being too "script-bound" is interesting to me, whilst I am certainly appreciative of filmmakers who are much more free floating and spontaneous - allowing the situation and actors to inform the narrative. I think a well developed script is the hallmark of many great films. I think many new films suffer from being shot based on underdeveloped scripts. In what way do you think Kobayashi is script-bound, I'm not sure I understand the full extent of your meaning. Do you think a rigid script inhibits a wilder visual imagination or experimentation?

[HerrSchreck]

I also see none of those problems in this utter masterpiece, which naturally-- structurally at least-- must hew to the ellipses in Hashimoto's script i e present/past/present/past/explosive wrap-up in real time.

A red hot razor flung at the false tendencies and potential for anti-humanism in samurai masculinity & Bushido-- ending incredibly with a blast of atomic masculinity completely devoid of hypocricy vs the rest of the film. The One Sincere Man in the world-- taking on the heartless manly men-- who happens to tougher than all the manly men combined. A combination of comic bookish exaggerated fantasy (like many expressionist tales, which Kobayashi's work to me most resembles in this peroid of his filmmaking) and Christ Clearing The Temple-type parable.

Speaks well to the ANgry Young Man buried in the pragmatic shell of the average viewer.

[Michael Kerpan]

I see Kobayashi as essentially "illustrating a story" rather than envisioning the material in purely cinematic terms. It seems to me that it is held together more by the strength of Nakadai's performance than by vision on the part of Kobayashi.

I was surprised by what seemed to me to be some sloppy cinematography and editing. Some of the pans struck me as especially crude.

Does this mean that this is not an impressive film -- of course not. But now, after seeing Samurai Rebellion and this, I have to say that Kobayashi's way of showing me things just doesn't resonate nearly as much as Kurosawa's.

Being anti-samurai in 1962 wasn't all that revolutionary (or dangerous). This does not come close, in my eyes, to Yamanaka's much more risky (and sophisticated) work in the 1930s.

This does remind me a bit of Pabst's work. While this would probably count as a good thing for HerrSchreck, this is a distinct negative for me. ;~}

[Awesome Welles]

Being anti-samurai in 1962 wasn't all that revolutionary (or dangerous). This does not come close, in my eyes, to Yamanaka's much more risky (and sophisticated) work in the 1930s.

I think that is very true but ultimately I think they are very different movies, anti-samurai or not. I don't think Kobayashi was specifically making an anti-samurai movie as much as he was just commenting on the things all good samurai movies comment on, that of the class system, but the great thing about Kobayashi's movie is that he doesn't just comment on the movie in a strictly historical context as he displays the unreliability of recorded truth, which is something that teeters in transcending the commentary in something like Seven Samurai, but I;m not saying it's a better movie, as Herr Schreck said this is definitely something like an exaggerated comic book fantasy, which I think means is not something we can take as seriously as Seven Samurai, perhaps this is where the movie is a bit muddled. But more to the point on the visuals of the film, it's been a while since I saw it, but I don't seem to remember anything crude about the lighting or the camera movement, on the contrary I seem to remember both those being good. The film may be very slightly muddled (when we're splitting hairs) but by God is it entertaining, visually and thematically.

I see Kobayashi as essentially "illustrating a story" rather than envisioning the material in purely cinematic terms. It seems to me that it is held together more by the strength of Nakadai's performance than by vision on the part of Kobayashi.

Nakadai's performance is great but I don't think he is holding the film together at all. Kobayashi has a very unified and well formed cinematic style that perhaps is at some points eclipsed by Nakadai but to say that Kobayashi is not envisioning the material in purely cinematic terms is not something I can agree with.

[HerrSchreck]

Of course anything remotely anti-bushido just before or during WW2 would be far more dangerous, of course, than anything produced afterwards. So you can't fault Kobashashi for being born/entering film when he was/did. I'll tell you this-- if Kobayashi made his film side by side with Yamanaka (who I of course deeply adore, based on two of the three surviving films I've seen)-- at the same time during those mid/late 30's years, Kobayashi would have probably seen himeself jettisoned to the front so fast his head would have spun (if the films were allowed out, which I doubt). His films are far more angry, blatant attacks on stereotypical traditional codes of Japanese masculinity than Yamas films at least the ones which survive... and are unleavened by the adorable sense of humor and play in Tange Sezen or Paper Balloons. Tange is light hearted and adorably funny, and Paper Balloons is sadly resigned and melancholic.. whereas Rebellion, Condition, Black River, and Seppu Ku/Hara Kiri are rampantly unfunny cayenne pepper thumbs twisted in the eyeballs of militaristic Japanese macho men. Hashimoto & Kobayashi were most emphatically not playing around in these films.

FWIW I see no Pabst in Kobayashi... I see more Murnau... hell even Wiene (at his best) before I see Pabst, who I regard as a second tier filmmaker, at least during the silent era (and was patently not expressionist, beyond two unspectacular "bandwagon" films he made early in his career when the trend was already dying-- Schatz & Secrets).

[Michael Kerpan]

You clearly find more to treasure to in Kobayashi than I do.

For whatever reason, the way he does things does not engage me fully. Perhaps this is because he seems so doggedly earnest. I tend to not respond well to film makers who show little or no trace of humor.

[ltfontaine]

I love the severe symmetry of this film and its stark soundtrack—dominated by the low rumble of Nakadai’s unfolding indictment of bushido—but admire above all its grim, inexorable rhythm, advancing toward the story’s explosive conclusion with the dark grace and ominous force of a swelling tidal wave. Its moral conviction strikes me as profound and authentic, consistent with the hard-won wartime ethos of Kobayashi, who refused promotion as an act of defiance, was captured in the miserable last days of the war and ended up as a POW in Okinawa. Despite his subsequent extended tenure with Kinoshita, I don’t see much common ground between them, especially in formal terms, although I’ve seen fewer Kinoshita than Kobayashi films. Apart from Kurosawa—with whom he is more directly linked temporally and aesthetically—Kobayashi’s work resonates in an interesting way with that of the younger Shinoda, also employed at Shochiku around the same time, despite the two directors’ disparate ideological backgrounds.

No doubt about it though, admittedly, humor is not Kobayashi's strong suit.

[Michael Kerpan]

A weirdness in the extras. Kobayashi talks about two main sources of inspiration -- Kinoshita and "Yatchi Aizu" (in the subtitles). As far as I can tell, there is no such person... Is it possible he mumbled Ozu's name and the subtitlers mis-heard him?

There is plenty to admire about Kobayashi, I agree. I just wish his films worked better for me. (Not his fault). I have a similar problem with Yoshimura's films -- yet expect many people here would like these much more than I do as well.

[kinjitsu]

Kobayashi talks about two main sources of inspiration -- Kinoshita and "Yatchi Aizu" (in the subtitles). As far as I can tell, there is no such person... Is it possible he mumbled Ozu's name and the subtitlers mis-heard him?

Misspelled. Kobayashi was likely referring to Yaichi Aizu, who does indeed exist.

[Michael Kerpan]

Misspelled. Kobayashi was likely referring to Yaichi Aizu, who does indeed exist.

I probably mis-read the subtitle. I'd never heard of Aizu previously (and he doesn't appear to have any connection to cinema).

Thanks

[kinjitsu]

He was a poet/scholar. Kobayashi studied under him at Waseda University.

Sorry Michael, I should have mentioned this in my previous post.

[tryavna]

I love the severe symmetry of this film and its stark soundtrack—dominated by the low rumble of Nakadai’s unfolding indictment of bushido—but admire above all its grim, inexorable rhythm, advancing toward the story’s explosive conclusion with the dark grace and ominous force of a swelling tidal wave. Its moral conviction strikes me as profound and authentic, consistent with the hard-won wartime ethos of Kobayashi, who refused promotion as an act of defiance, was captured in the miserable last days of the war and ended up as a POW in Okinawa. Despite his subsequent extended tenure with Kinoshita, I don’t see much common ground between them, especially in formal terms, although I’ve seen fewer Kinoshita than Kobayashi films. Apart from Kurosawa—with whom he is more directly linked temporally and aesthetically—Kobayashi’s work resonates in an interesting way with that of the younger Shinoda, also employed at Shochiku around the same time, despite the two directors’ disparate ideological backgrounds.

I very much agree with your evaluation of the film. One more thing I'd like to point out, though: I think the movie actually gets better with repeat viewings. Knowing the plot in advance places the machinations of Nakadai's character in the foreground. This adds to what you call the film's "grim, inexorable rhythm" -- and, I would argue, gives the film an element of dark humor. In Kwaidan, I find the machinations of the supernatural similarly darkly amusing: the spirits are literally just fucking with the protagonists of each episode for no good reason (except, of course, for the first episode). So I don't find Kobayashi's work completely humorless, but it's a very dark brand of humor. At any rate, I really would advise anyone to watch this film at least twice before making a final decision about it.

I've also found resonances with some of Okamoto's and Fukasaku's samurai films. In particular, the unreliability of officially recorded history, which Kobayashi acknowledged as one of the major themes of the film, crops up again in both Okamoto's Samurai Assassin and Fukasaku's Yagyu Clan Conspiracy (where the dark humor, or even outright absurdism, is even more pronounced).

[Michael Kerpan]

I really would advise anyone to watch this film at least twice before making a final decision about it..

Well, so long as no one steals this from the BPL, I can check it out again. But, to tell the truth, I felt it a chore to get through even once -- so I'm not likely to re-visit this film any time soon.

[HerrSchreck]

So I don't find Kobayashi's work completely humorless, but it's a very dark brand of humor.

Well there is some humor in Kwaidan... and since I was the first to point out the lack of humor in the "indicting" films of Kobayashi, I'd note that in my list above, I singled out

Rebellion, Condition, Black River, and Seppu Ku/Hara Kiri are rampantly unfunny

, not Kwaidan.. especially the last episode of Kwaidan exhibits some overt humor.

I really dont see much humor in the above list at least in tone. Characters may have moments of interaction where all is not doom and gloom. But I agree w Mr. Fontaine.. these are pretty grim-toned pictures.

[tryavna]

So I don't find Kobayashi's work completely humorless, but it's a very dark brand of humor.

Well there is some humor in Kwaidan... and since I was the first to point out the lack of humor in the "indicting" films of Kobayashi, I'd note that in my list above, I singled out

Rebellion, Condition, Black River, and Seppu Ku/Hara Kiri are rampantly unfunny

, not Kwaidan.. especially the last episode of Kwaidan exhibits some overt humor.

I really dont see much humor in the above list at least in tone. Characters may have moments of interaction where all is not doom and gloom. But I agree w Mr. Fontaine.. these are pretty grim-toned pictures.

Well, I'd agree that Kobayashi wasn't making laugh-out-loud movies, but I still find a very dark and cynical element of humor amid all the doom and gloom of Harakiri. Perhaps it's better to call it a sort of absurdism, but I do find the ease with which Nakadai's character throws the plans (and pomposity) of the clan leaders into chaos amusing at times. It's a sort of joy in Nakadai's act of resistance, even though that resistance is doomed to ultimate suppression.

But as I've said before, I do have an odd sense of humor.

[Awesome Welles]

I still find a very dark and cynical element of humor amid all the doom and gloom of Harakiri. Perhaps it's better to call it a sort of absurdism, but I do find the ease with which Nakadai's character throws the plans (and pomposity) of the clan leaders into chaos amusing at times. It's a sort of joy in Nakadai's act of resistance, even though that resistance is doomed to ultimate suppression.

But as I've said before, I do have an odd sense of humor.

I didn't want to say this earlier as I have only seen the film once, and quite a while ago, but I seem to remember finding the film darkly humourous also, though I can't remember why. I do want to revisit this film all the time but never seem to find the time. Perhaps I have an odd sense of humour too.

[Michael Kerpan]

The protagonist displays a grim sense of humor at a few points -- but not sure that the _film_ exhibits much humor.

[tryavna]

The protagonist displays a grim sense of humor at a few points -- but not sure that the _film_ exhibits much humor.

I suppose.... But I'm not sure that I totally understand that distinction -- at least insofar as it seems clear as the film progresses that Kobayashi identifies with the protagonist.

After having given it some thought, the nearest analogy that comes to mind from another film of the same era would be Fritz Lang's 1000 Eyes of Dr. Mabuse. Neither film is a comedy to be sure, but I do sense a certain degree of grim bemusement on the part of each director at the predictability of certain forms of human behavior and at the ability of others to manipulate that behavior.

Perhaps I have an odd sense of humour too.

At least it's good to know I'm not alone....

[sidehacker]

I got your back on this one, Michael. In fact, my response is even a little more harsh. All give it some credit for having nice cinematography and pitch-perfect composition but nearly every other aspect represents sterile, soulless nothing. After all, I like Antonioni a lot and I can see how someone would make a similar assessment of his work but his work is grounded in an genuine interest of the characters, while Kobayashi seems more concerned with making a very plot-heavy narrative. I suppose it would help for one to have an interest in samurai culture in general but everything I've read about the film implies that it is about something more complex and yet Nakadai, as much as I love him, is intended to be cool in the most infantile of ways. I am being harsh but it is a curiosity, at least to me, that something could reach an almost cult status. Now, please don't hurt me.

[PimpPanda]

I really like the ferocious ending, and while I do think the film has its merit and is quite good, I also don't see it's supposed greatness. At least it's not as terrible as The Human Condition Part 1...