447-448 Le doulos and Le deuxieme souffle

[Jean-Luc Garbo]

I don't know if it counts as liking him, but Ginette Vincendeau has made quite a career out of Melville. Her book doesn't go into a lot of detail about women, but she seems to enjoy his films. I'd like to know if Molly Haskell likes Melville, though.

No offense to QT because I love Jackie Brown, but Pam Grier brought everything to the table that QT could have needed. Jackie succeeds based on Grier's input imo.

[jaredsap]

the Bride in Kill Bill struck me as an immature male nerd's fantasy [...] Tarantino approaches women like a clueless adolescent

That's reasonable (even if I don't fully agree). But there's a world of difference between misogynism and treating women as fantasy objects.

These are directors who are most at home describing a certain kind of milieu, and it happens to be one in which women are nearly always peripheral, superfluous, or a nuisance.

In three of Tarantino's five features, women couldn't be more integral and centralized.

Tarantino's women fulfill slightly less unpleasant male fantasies: they're strong enough to be cool/sexy, but ultimately in thrall to men in various ways.

But they almost always triumph over the men in their lives.

[Sloper]

I'll back off from the Tarantino debate because I don't honestly know his films well enough to argue a case, and no doubt your point of view is perfectly justifiable. But I'm not sure I agree that

there's a world of difference between misogynism and treating women as fantasy objects.

I think a lot of feminists (and I shouldn't talk for them, they don't like that) would disagree with you on this, especially with regard to pornography. In a film like, for instance, Sin City (of which the Tarantino scene was the only halfway decent bit), part of what I dislike about its portrayal of women is the pretence of creating strong, independent female characters, who in fact only exist and function to help a bunch of horny blokes play out their fantasies. This is still misogyny, just of a more insidious kind.

Good point about Vincendeau, and judging from her commentaries (including the one on Le Doulos) she's very conscious of Melville's dubious sexual politics. I don't remember her specific comments on the radiator scene, but I do remember wondering what it must be like for a female academic to specialise in a director like this... I suppose Melville gives her something chew on, so to speak.

[Queiroz]

I think I remember Melville saying something about wanting to create worthy female characters, but finding it very difficult. In fairness to him, there is great resonance to the character of Mathilde that Simone Signoret plays in Army of Shadows.

[colinr0380]

There is also the character of Anne in Bob Le Flambeur, who talks about the heist. In the remake The Good Thief Neil Jordan tries to mitigate the character by having her blab while high on drugs but that is only a slight modification that just makes the character seem stupid rather than nastily conscious about what she is doing.

Though there is the owner of the bar, Yvonne, who in her short scenes helps somewhat to balance out the negativity of Anne.

[Sloper]

Mathilde is a bit like Jackie Brown, isn't she? - strong because of the actress's charisma. And though I adore the ending of L'Armee des Ombres, it always seems to me like she isn't exactly complicit in her own fate, and indeed wants to resist it. Which is part of what makes it a great ending.

The woman in Bob le flambeur was pretty offensive as well, especially as she was so vacuously played by whoever-it-was.

Ironically, the strongest female characters I can think of in Melville are only strong insofar as they keep their mouths shut: the girl in Silence de la Mer, and the jazz pianist in Le Samourai.

[colinr0380]

The woman in Bob le flambeur was pretty offensive as well, especially as she was so vacuously played by whoever-it-was.

Isabelle Corey. Apparently Melville warned her off appearing in And God Created Woman as second fiddle to Bardot a year later, which is an appearance that she did make but which seemed to have ruined her sexpot standing through allowing the audience to make an up close comparison between them.

[username-Italian Style]

its strange how Army of Shadows is the only Melville film with an English title. But I guess it has more appeal that way.

by the way i think October is the best month i've seen in a long time

[Spunky714]

Le Doulos will also be at Film Forum in NYC later this summer.

[Sheriff Chambers]

Saw Le Deuxieme Souffle a few years ago and enjoyed it as much as, and perhaps more than, some of Melville’s better known works. Deserves greater attention – an outstanding film.

[Florinaldo]

Does anyone know if Vincendeau's commentary on the BFI edition of Le Doulos was also on selected scenes only?

Thanks.

[charulata]

Yes, the Vincendeau commentary on the Bfi Le Doulos is only for 3 scenes = ~30 minutes of the total playing time.
The scenes are : the opening beginning with the credits (~15 min); the scene with Silien and Therese (~ 6 min); the closing scene (~10 min).

[Florinaldo]

Thanks for the info charulata. This means the only thing missing on the Criterion will be BFI's usual burned-in subtitles.

[royalton]

I loved Le Doulos, but only came to embrace it fully when I learned that Melville deliberately intended for

Spoiler

Silien's 180 at the end to be ambiguous to the audience. During my initial watching experience, while it was a terrific twist, it felt like a huge copout to me - Melville saying "don't worry, guys, Belmondo can't be that bad a guy!" Especially after he'd so impressed me being so arresting and brutal for most of the picture. Personally, I didn't quite believe Silien's story, especially after Jean was picked up immediately afterwards.

Loved it, and the cinematography, but couldn't help missing Melville's later-period vivid colors.

ETA: Sorry about that; I thought spoiler tags didn't apply for something so old.

[Godot]

Hey, Royalton, can you please edit that last post and put spoilers to cover the plot twist info?
Like this:

Spoiler

We usually try to protect sensitive plot info, just in case some readers haven't seen the movie. The tags are "

Spoiler

" before and "[/ spoiler]" after.

ETA: Sorry about that; I thought spoiler tags didn't apply for something so old.

No problem. I don't know that we have hard and fast rules for when to apply spoiler tags. In this case, neither movie has been widely available (I've seen the R2 Le Doulos disc, with Vincendeau commentary, but long sought the other film), certainly not in R1 (or TCM, IFC, etc.), and I think it's fair to assume they will be a first viewing for many forum members. Other movies, of course, are part of the public consciousness. For example:

Spoiler

The Wizard of Oz is all a dream. Or ... is it? (dum dum DUM)

[Narshty]

DVD Beaver

Despite Gary's wild enthusiasm for the Criterion, the differences in image quality are pretty minimal.

[mfunk9786]

Are you looking at the same images I am? The Criterion looks a lot more sharp and crisp, it's a beautiful transfer.

[MichaelB]

Thanks for the info charulata. This means the only thing missing on the Criterion will be BFI's usual burned-in subtitles.

Lest this pass into misinformed folklore, it's not usual for BFI releases to have burned-in subtitles these days. When was the last one, just out of interest?

[skuhn8]

DVD Beaver

Despite Gary's wild enthusiasm for the Criterion, the differences in image quality are pretty minimal.

I think this degree of improvement would be hard to notice in motion. No need for me to double dip on this. Great film, btw.

[Perkins Cobb]

The BFI is a terrible-looking DVD (probably the worst I've seen on that label). I really regret seeing Le Doulos for the first time in that form. I haven't seen the Criterion but I doubt the Beav is overselling the difference.

On the other hand, I could've lived without knowing that Gary has the hots for Ginette Vincendeau.

[colinr0380]

DVD Beaver on Le Deuxième Souffle.

[Florinaldo]

Thanks for the info charulata. This means the only thing missing on the Criterion will be BFI's usual burned-in subtitles.

Lest this pass into misinformed folklore, it's not usual for BFI releases to have burned-in subtitles these days. When was the last one, just out of interest?

Le Cercle Rouge and Tristana for example, on my two zone-free players (different brands). And DVD Beaver reports the same at least for Le Doulos.

Some are saying that BFI have abandoned the practice, but once burned twice shy, which has prevented me from getting from their Céline et Julie Vont en Bateau amongst others.

[MichaelB]

Some are saying that BFI have abandoned the practice, but once burned twice shy, which has prevented me from getting from their Céline et Julie Vont en Bateau amongst others.

Well, I asked when was the most recent example, and all yours are several years old.

Anyway, I'm happy to confirm that Celine and Julie has optional subtitles. And if you don't believe me, here's the Beaver.

[Florinaldo]

Some are saying that BFI have abandoned the practice, but once burned twice shy, which has prevented me from getting from their Céline et Julie Vont en Bateau amongst others.

Well, I asked when was the most recent example, and all yours are several years old.

Anyway, I'm happy to confirm that Celine and Julie has optional subtitles. And if you don't believe me, here's the Beaver.

Well these were MY most recent examples since I have stayed away from BFI because of their practice and their failure to reply to enquiries when I asked about it and how it applied to some specific titles.

I suppose I might take your word for it that they have abandoned burned-in subs, but the point is moot anyway since my comments were initiated because of Le Doulos, the Criterion edition now appearing superior in every way according to DVDBeaver's comparison.

Also, the Beaver's info is at times unreliable since it indicates Le Cercle Rouge's subs are player-removable (not to disparage my fellow Canadian's otherwise much appreciated work). So how can I be certain about the Rivette and others?

[fiddlesticks]

Wow, you're one tough customer. Since you don't trust either a professional reviewer or the very horse's mouth itself, there's no reason you should trust little ol' me, but just the same I'll re-confirm that Celine and Julie has optional English subs.