Libraries, DVDs, and "Institutional" Prices

[denti alligator]

Hey Matt

How does your library deal with places that charge "institutional prices" for DVDs that are 10 times the regular price? I'm thinking of Fred Wiseman's DVDs. I'd like to get my library to purchase these, but once they see the price ($300-$400 per DVD!!) I think they'll just say "no thanks."

Is there a way around this?

[Hopscotch]

How does your library deal with places that charge "institutional prices" for DVDs that are 10 times the regular price? I'm thinking of Fred Wiseman's DVDs. I'd like to get my library to purchase these, but once they see the price ($300-$400 per DVD!!) I think they'll just say "no thanks."

Is there a way around this?

mmm seconded. I have the same exact question.

[Matt]

I'm at an academic library, so if there is curricular need for a title priced "institutionally," it gets bought. I would suspect that public libraries would just say no. $400 for a film one or two people are likely to check out isn't going to get bought over spending that same amount of money on a few dozen mainstream titles that will get checked out by lots of people.

To date, though, I have not bought any of those $400 Wiseman DVD-Rs for my library and I will do so only by faculty request. If I were able to buy them for the library at the individual price (or even $10 more), I would have bought one of each. Think about that, Mr. Wiseman.

You can get around paying the institutional price, but it's not nice to lie.

[domino harvey]

Somewhere on his funnytime crazy website, Ray Carney advocates young filmmakers make the institutional price for their films as high as possible, as though any library really wanted a $600 copy of Frownland

[denti alligator]

I'm at an academic institution, and one of the biggest ones in my state, but it's still a state school, and funds are limited (especially with all the recent budget cuts). I kinda doubt they would plump down $400 for one DVD, and I don't even want to ask.

Even for a film as important as Jud Suss, I'm going to see if I can get my department to reimburse me for purchasing it as an individual. I mean, $400 for one DVD!!![/url]

[Hopscotch]

You can get around paying the institutional price, but it's not nice to lie.

It's not nice, but it's fun to do bad things

[jsteffe]

I'm at an academic institution, and one of the biggest ones in my state, but it's still a state school, and funds are limited (especially with all the recent budget cuts). I kinda doubt they would plump down $400 for one DVD, and I don't even want to ask.

Even for a film as important as Jud Suss, I'm going to see if I can get my department to reimburse me for purchasing it as an individual. I mean, $400 for one DVD!!![/url]

In the case of JUD SUSS, it's not clear that Libraries *have* to buy it at the institutional price. My interpretation in this case is that the amount is for public performance rights. If you're only using it for individual viewing or face-to-face teaching, you don't need public performance rights. Once you open a screening up to people not enrolled in the course, then it becomes a "public performance." In fact, we ordered the similarly priced DVD of THE FALL OF BERLIN from the same company at the home video price and they didn't seem to mind. Both the JUD SUSS and FALL OF BERLIN DVDs are by far the best versions available, and I recommend them if you're curious.

In the case of Wiseman, he will sell his videos to libraries and universities ONLY for the institutional price. I've bought a few titles on VHS a while back, but there's no way I'm buying DVD-Rs of the same films for $400 a pop unless a faculty member asks me to. Already there isn't enough money to purchase everything we might want, and I'm working with a decent budget. The advantage of other educational outfits like California Newsreel and Women Make Movies is that they're more flexible in pricing--they have regular sales and discounts for quantity purchases. If Wiseman were do the same, I might reconsider. Actually, I wonder if anyone has tried negotiating the prices with him?

[MyNameCriterionForum]

Is there some reason, besides the act being a very minor impropriety, that a librarian can't order the Wiseman titles for their "personal use" and then donate them to the library? Any sensible library would accept the "donation" and add them to their collection. Obviously the issue of reimbursing the individual staff member comes up... not sure how a library would handle this.

Pretty sickening that Wiseman's films are so poorly distributed, and so prohibitively priced. At this point his "business plan" has annoyed me so much I doubt I'll make any further effort to see his work (none of which I've yet been able to see).

[Gregory]

One thing that libraries can do to make it a little better to budget for institutionally priced video materials is to create a stricter circulation status for them. This is probably based on how academic libraries budget for highly expensive special collections materials that are deemed worth the money but are a riskier investment if people don't take care of them. Most of my library's DVDs any graduate student (plus faculty etc.) can check out, so these often really take a beating. So, institutionally priced or irreplaceable things can only be checked out be someone using it for a course, and even this seems borderline frowned-upon. Anyone with a library card can watch them on the premises. Personally, I think this arrangement is a good idea, as I'd rather a portion of the budget consistently go to buying more expensive, unusual video items even if it means taking severe measures to protect against inconsiderate people who scratch discs or ruin them by pulling them off the hub carelessly.

Is there some reason, besides the act being a very minor impropriety, that a librarian can't order the Wiseman titles for their "personal use" and then donate them to the library?

The motives behind this kind of thing are almost always good. However, my understanding is that this kind of breaking of the rules of the pricing scheme is common enough to pose a serious threat to some distributors. The major "culprits" are probably not libraries but individuals who rent or buy a film for a public screening and don't pay for screening rights, which are often in the hundreds of dollars even for short documentaries. But this kind of thing is a big part of the reason why a lot of really outstanding films are still only available at very high institutional prices.

Pretty sickening that Wiseman's films are so poorly distributed...

On home video, you mean? Many of them have been very widely seen (for independent documentaries) in other venues. However, I agree that it's unfortunate people have to go to such lengths to see the stuff if they miss an initial run on PBS.

At this point his "business plan" has annoyed me so much I doubt I'll make any further effort to see his work (none of which I've yet been able to see).

I don't know your tastes but I can't help but feel that you're missing out on some unmissable films.
(edited to fix typo)

[jsteffe]

One thing that libraries can do to make it a little better to budget for institutionally priced video materials is to create a stricter circulation status for them. This is probably based on how academic libraries budget for highly expensive special collections materials that are deemed worth the money but are a riskier investment if people don't take care of them. Most of my library's DVDs any graduate student (plus faculty etc.) can check out, so these often really take a beating. So, institutionally priced or irreplaceable things can only be checked out be someone using it for a course, and even this seems borderline frowned-upon. Anyone with a library card can watch them on the premises. Personally, I think this arrangement is a good idea, as I'd rather a portion of the budget consistently go to buying more expensive, unusual video items even if it means taking severe measures to inconsiderate people who scratch discs or ruin them by pulling them off the hub carelessly.

Video circulation policies differ dramatically from institution to institution. We will let faculty take out any DVD or VHS overnight to prepare for class, but otherwise they have to be used in the library. Yes, there is a risk of damage, but you have to balance that against the larger purpose of the collection, which is to facilitate classroom instruction and research. We also have a large number of reasonably priced (and not out-of-print!) DVDs that undergrad and grad students can take out overnight. Naturally, a $400 DVD would be excluded from overnight circulation to students.

The motives behind this kind of thing are almost always good. However, my understanding is that this kind of breaking of the rules of the pricing scheme is common enough to pose a serious threat to some distributors. The major "culprits" are probably not libraries but individuals who rent or buy a film for a public screening and don't pay for screening rights, which are often in the hundreds of dollars even for short documentaries. But this kind of thing is a big part of the reason why a lot of really outstanding films are still only available at very high institutional prices.

Actually, there are quite a few unauthorized public screenings of films on college campuses, I'm sorry to say. Distributors have to spend a lot of time tracking these screenings down and asking for the fees that are legally due to them. And the sales for "institutional" videos are often much smaller than you would think. I did a quick survey of WorldCat, and the entry for Titicut Follies (DVD and VHS) lists only 23 library holdings nationwide. There are undoubtedly additional copies in medical video collections or academic department video collections, but we're talking about extremely small sales and profit margins. One of the reasons why you have institutional pricing is because that model has worked for a long time, even if on only a small scale.

However, libraries invariably have limited budgets, especially for AV media, as opposed to books. We have to choose between getting Wiseman and expensive videos needed for Anthropology or Women's Studies classes. Instructor demand wins out. Even if it means purchasing copies of Dangerous Minds and Mr. Holland's Opus to place on reserve instead of adding Essene to the collection. (shudder...)

I don't know your tastes but I can't help but feel that you're missing out on some unmissable films.

Yes--Wiseman is one of the greatest of all documentarists. If you can afford to pick up even a couple of his films on DVD-R, it will be money well spent.

[swo17]

I did a quick survey of WorldCat, and the entry for Titicut Follies (DVD and VHS) lists only 23 library holdings nationwide.

I was just going to complain about how my library has new copies of Harold & Kumar and Welcome Home Roscoe Jenkins, but still no Vampyr. But then I saw that they have 24 Wiseman films.

Um, yay libraries!

[Gregory]

Actually, there are quite a few unauthorized public screenings of films on college campuses, I'm sorry to say. Distributors have to spend a lot of time tracking these screenings down and asking for the fees that are legally due to them.

Yes, that's just what I had in mind, or part of it. I've seen it first hand quite a bit, and I think often people justify it by saying, "Well, with our budget it's this or nothing." I remember in my college days organizing a "film series" (video) and contacting Zeitgeist about paying them screening rights for one of the titles. They told me how much I was to pay ($350 if I recall correctly) and asked if I needed to rent the video from them, even though I already had it. I sensed that they were just a little surprised about how I was going about it. That was a significant piece of our group's budget for the year, and I probably wasn't quite as scrupulous every single time.

One more thing I'll add about Wiseman: there are real challenges and expenses involved in making these films available on DVD-R. Not for nothing has it taken them months to get Primate ready for release on disc.

[kaujot]

One more thing I'll add about Wiseman: there are real challenges and expenses involved in making these films available on DVD-R. Not for nothing has it taken them months to get Primate ready for release on disc.

Which is why he should have someone (preferably a company who can put out actual DVDs) do it for him.