230 3 Women

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zedz
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:24 pm

Re: 230 3 Women

#26 Post by zedz »

mmacklem wrote: . . . I don't feel like the intention is to love these characters. Perhaps not to laugh at them, not to join in with their environment on their tormenting. But also not to love them. Empathize yes, but from a distance.
I think this is correct, and it's one of the reasons I find the film so unusual and compelling. Our 'identification' in this film is nothing so commonplace as 'liking' the characters, but more like a reluctant, queasy realisation of commonality, complicated and made all the more queasy by a simultaneous recognition of ourselves in those who treat Millie with contempt or disdain. For me, Pinky is a much more abstracted figure, the dream presence or narrative theorem that your 'controlled experiment' revolves around.

But one of the film's strengths for me is that over the years it's never resolved into something entirely concrete. Willie's role / function is one of those evolving conundrums that keep it alive and fertile.
mmacklem
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Re: 230 3 Women

#27 Post by mmacklem »

gubbelsj wrote:You have some interesting points about Altman's attitude towards the women and how different audiences might misinterpret certain aspects of the storyline, but I'm a bit confused as to why you think calling the film 3 Women is manipulative. While Willie is certainly tangential to the film's narrative throughout most of the film, it is her horrific and botched delivery that unites all three characters and stands as the final action before the much more muted epilogue. Willie's trauma helps reverse the trajectory Millie and Pinky had been following, with Millie re-asserting her earlier semi-authoritarian identity and Pinky reverting back to her role of dependency. And seeing how the film ends with the three women united in a quasi-communal non-male environment, I think the film is very much about all three, even if this doesn't become obvious until the final frames.
I disagree on two fronts:

1. Willie's trauma does not _reverse_ the trajectory Millie and Pinky had been following, it simply takes it from one direction to a completely different direction. In fact, it doesn't even do that: it stops them in their current trajectory, picks all three of them up, and plops them down in a completely different destination than their previous trajectory would have taken them.

2. Willie's trauma does not _unite_ all three characters, it brings them together in one place and traumatizes all of them. There is no unity at the end of her botched delivery, there are three different traumas, connected by a single event.

When I say that the ending is manipulative, this is what I mean: there is a break between the central trauma in the penultimate sequence, and the epilogue, which is not explained or justified, and is simply presented, as somehow being a response of all three characters to this trauma, despite there being nothing in the presentations of the three characters up to that point to suggest that they might respond in this way. Preceding this by a trauma, which the audience can specifically only respond to viscerally, and then pulling an ending out of some completely different direction, creates a viewing environment in which an unmotivated ending is perceived by a traumatized audience as somehow being resolutive in some way. I call that manipulative.

(spoiler warning on Paul Thomas Anderson's Magnolia)
This reminds me of a slightly different occasion: I remember watching Ebert's Worst Movies of the Year episode in 1999, after Siskel had died and before Roeper joined the show. Joel Siegel was on, and was talking about why he thought Magnolia was one of the worst movies of the year, and he said something to the following effect:
- The entire movie, he was enthralled at the performances, he was intrigued by the characters, he was hypnotized by the entire film, but the whole time he found himself thinking: How can the film bring all of these characters together? How can he resolve this set of disparate ideas? And then he [Siegel] realized: Oh -- he can't! So he instead ends the film with the most ridiculous "event", which can only be interpreted as the equivalent of PTA throwing his hands in the air and giving up.

Now, in this example, I think Siegel is an idiot: Magnolia is my single favourite movie, and I think the entire film is leading up to the moment Siegel takes offense to. (And yes, I am aware that I can very easily be the analogous idiot in the case of 3 Women.) But Siegel's criticism of Magnolia almost exactly describes my response to the final two sequences of 3 Women ... except that 3 Women doesn't have the 12-15 characters to tie together that Magnolia has, it has... 3. So instead of attacking them all with frogs, Altman chooses instead to traumatize everyone, and then take the film somewhere completely different and unjustified, and hope that the audience is too traumatized to question their destination. I call foul. To me, that's manipulative.
zedz wrote:But one of the film's strengths for me is that over the years it's never resolved into something entirely concrete. Willie's role / function is one of those evolving conundrums that keep it alive and fertile.
I embrace that conundrum-style of filmmaking when it's justified. Sokurov's Mother and Son is one of my favourite films, and it is essentially entirely playing around with the boundaries of nature and humanity, individual and symbol, dream and reality, life and death, music and sound, and so on. But in that style of filmmaking, it's all a type, everything is unresolved and unexplained. The dream-atmosphere permeates everything. (The examples of Persona and Mulholland Drive have also been mentioned previously in this thread, along these same lines.)

We have already focussed on the very human elements of Willie's obsession with fashion and style in combatting her feelings of outsideness and exclusion, her desperate desire for acceptance and affirmation, something that all of us share as part of the human condition. With "real" characters, certain rules have to be followed. We cannot simply stop the logic of the movie, and pretend we're somewhere else.

I'm not asking for the film to resolve itself, I think it "deserves" an unresolved ending with the film that exists up to the ending. But that doesn't mean that all endings are equivalent. If Millie, Pinky, and Willie had ended up after the trauma in the second act of Mulholland Drive, that would have been wrong. Because that's not the world these characters inhabit. We cannot simply disregard the logic and history of the characters to that point and place them wherever we please. Again, I call foul.
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GringoTex
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Re: 230 3 Women

#28 Post by GringoTex »

zedz wrote:If you could only see Nashville as a snobbish put-down of country music and its denizens, I imagine that would make the film unbearable, but that's not the film I know.
I'm a huge fan of country music and think the 70s were it's golden age, so I obviously have a huge problem with Nashville. All he showed us was bad music.
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essrog
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Re: 230 3 Women

#29 Post by essrog »

GringoTex wrote:
zedz wrote:If you could only see Nashville as a snobbish put-down of country music and its denizens, I imagine that would make the film unbearable, but that's not the film I know.
I'm a huge fan of country music and think the 70s were it's golden age, so I obviously have a huge problem with Nashville. All he showed us was bad music.
Even the Ronee Blakley/Barbara Jean songs? I'm not a country music connoisseur, but I think "Dues" is gorgeous and achingly authentic.
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LQ
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Re: 230 3 Women

#30 Post by LQ »

mmacklem wrote:We have already focussed on the very human elements of Willie's obsession with fashion and style in combatting her feelings of outsideness and exclusion, her desperate desire for acceptance and affirmation, something that all of us share as part of the human condition. With "real" characters, certain rules have to be followed. We cannot simply stop the logic of the movie, and pretend we're somewhere else.

I'm not asking for the film to resolve itself, I think it "deserves" an unresolved ending with the film that exists up to the ending. But that doesn't mean that all endings are equivalent. If Millie, Pinky, and Willie had ended up after the trauma in the second act of Mulholland Drive, that would have been wrong. Because that's not the world these characters inhabit. We cannot simply disregard the logic and history of the characters to that point and place them wherever we please. Again, I call foul.
I'm completely with you. I've seen this film many times since first posting in this thread about my disappointment with the ending and in each subsequent viewing my resentment against it remains. However, I count 3 Women among my top favorite movies of all time. I hope you can still appreciate what this film has to offer without getting too tied up in the ending...now, I just mentally check out after the slap. ;)
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zedz
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Re: 230 3 Women

#31 Post by zedz »

essrog wrote:
GringoTex wrote: I'm a huge fan of country music and think the 70s were it's golden age, so I obviously have a huge problem with Nashville. All he showed us was bad music.
Even the Ronee Blakley/Barbara Jean songs? I'm not a country music connoisseur, but I think "Dues" is gorgeous and achingly authentic.
I'm with you on this, and see the inclusion of the less-good material (specifically Gibson's) as serving the purposes of verisimilitude. I know there was at least some bad music coming out of Nashville in the 1970s: I've heard it!
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Re: 230 3 Women

#32 Post by kaujot »

Altman says as much in his commentary. He said he wanted bad music at the beginning and for it to get progressively better (and I think he succeeds). I also don't think any of the music is bad (well, the waitress' song in the beginning, and Hamilton's, too).
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Re: 230 3 Women

#33 Post by mmacklem »

LQ wrote:I'm completely with you. I've seen this film many times since first posting in this thread about my disappointment with the ending and in each subsequent viewing my resentment against it remains. However, I count 3 Women among my top favorite movies of all time. I hope you can still appreciate what this film has to offer without getting too tied up in the ending...now, I just mentally check out after the slap. ;)
So if the ending doesn't make any sense, what do you do with the rest of it? I understand your previous statements about how you think it is a masterpiece, and I'm willing to give it another shot, but I want to give it another shot independent of the anger that I feel about it having only seen it once. Are my non-ending-related objections resolvable? Do they go away with a second viewing?
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Gregory
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Re: 230 3 Women

#34 Post by Gregory »

Responding to mmacklem's point about not finding Willie tied to Millie and Pinky:
I found her strongly but subtly linked to the other women via a consistent but unexplained bond with Pinky, who seems drawn to Willie in the empty pool and responds strongly to her paintings. [Spoilers follow] When Pinky nearly drowns, Willie is shaken to the core. Another shot, if I recall correctly, has Pinky looking out the window at Willie who is seated on the floor of the pool with her legs apart, which I thought foreshadowed the shots of Pinky looking through the doorway during the labor scene. Millie is too self-centered (yet oblivious to her deeper self) to have any kind of close bond with Willie prior to that scene. Pinky is virtually without a self but possesses a connection to Willie in ways that are never clearly defined -- which is one thing that makes the film so interesting to watch.
1. Willie's trauma does not _reverse_ the trajectory Millie and Pinky had been following, it simply takes it from one direction to a completely different direction. In fact, it doesn't even do that: it stops them in their current trajectory, picks all three of them up, and plops them down in a completely different destination than their previous trajectory would have taken them.
I think the abrupt change in "trajectory" feels natural after the traumatic events that precede it. But I'd add that I think the word "trajectory" assumes too much by suggesting that the women were each on some kind of linear path. On the contrary, for me, the film shows them floating in various forms of feminine limbo that stunt their realization as human beings.
It was courageous and inspired to end this particular film without any kind of real denouement, and the effect is troubling to the viewer.
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gubbelsj
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Re: 230 3 Women

#35 Post by gubbelsj »

Gregory wrote:I think the abrupt change in "trajectory" feels natural after the traumatic events that precede it. But I'd add that I think the word "trajectory" assumes too much by suggesting that the women were each on some kind of linear path. On the contrary, for me, the film shows them floating in various forms of feminine limbo that stunt their realization as human beings.
It was courageous and inspired to end this particular film without any kind of real denouement, and the effect is troubling to the viewer.
Gregory -

I was actually the one to sloppily introduce the term 'trajectory' into the discussion, not mmacklem, and I think you're right in suggesting it's not the most appropriate word for the film's characters. Certainly, one of the film's strengths is that none of the women feel as if they are approaching anything remotely resembling a well-marked path or guided narrative. I think my use of 'trajectory' was both a bit of laziness on my part and also an attempt to use it in the almost dream-like sense of objects moving in space - a lonely orbit, say. In this sense, perhaps 'limbo' and 'trajectory' have some similarities? In any case, I think you're exactly right in that the film's calm, measured and very unsettling ending is a strength. Compared to other Altman endings, which often turn upon unexpected acts of violence or trauma (assassination in Nashville, earthquake in Short Cuts) to tie up loose ends and connect a sprawling narrative, I find it deeply satisfying and, yes, troubling.
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colinr0380
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Re: 230 3 Women

#36 Post by colinr0380 »

I think that I first saw 3 Women in a Robert Altman season on TV in 1996 and it is one of those films that has stayed in my mind long after the 'plots' of other films disappeared from my memory. Having just been wowed by A Wedding earlier in the season and beginning to feel comfortable with the expectations of 'Altman' equalling 'ensemble', 3 Women knocked me off balance. It also felt as if I saw the film in the perfect conditions: late at night in the middle of a hot summer which complemented mood of the film - the shimmering heat haze contrasted against refreshing and cooling dips into water.

Back in 1996 I saw the film in pan and scan form, though it was very difficult to be sure at the time whether it was in the correct ratio or not! I didn't have the Internet then to easily check those kinds of details and with the constant panning and zooming throughout the film I found it difficult to figure out whether the picture was cropped or not. The Criterion disc was my first experience of the film in its correct ratio, and it was nice to see the compositions in the way they were intended (off centred characters, such as the introduction of Pinky in the Hydrotherapy Clinic, when they were nicely centred in the pan and scan print; the wide open spaces emphasising the distances the characters have to walk to reach each other; the full view of the murals; the little blue wave machine that feels designed for the widescreen ratio!; and so on)

It has been a while since I last watched the film (though this discussion has inspired me to sit down with it again this weekend!), but I have to admit to feeling uncomfortably close to Millie. I can certainly identify with the kind of nervousness where you talk just to fill up the air, trying to keep up an air of joviality and lightness to cover up the fear of what will happen if you stop talking - not that you'll be treated badly but that nobody will have even cared to listen.

I feel very sorry for Millie because she is keeping up appearances and doing everything she 'should do', but is doing it for others rather than herself in the hopes that this will make her successful or liked when ironically it is driving people away from her and turning her into a pitiable figure. The other minor characters, from the work'mates' at the Hydrotherapy Clinic to the doctors in the restaurant and the guys around the pool at the apartment complex, even the officious nurse who gruffly asks who she is when she comes to see Pinky with the girl's parents, are rather broadly characterised as unsympathetic. Normally I hate broadly drawn unsympathetic characters as being a shortcut for a filmmaker looking to create easy sympathy for our main characters (see Million Dollar Baby!), but I think it works here. It not only creates sympathy as the world seems to have rejected our characters as damaged long before they realise it themselves, but it also suggests the generally hostile attitude of the world to strangers when they sense someone in need. When someone expresses no interest (as Pinky does with her badass attitude after waking from her coma), people seem to come flocking!

I also think it is interesting that Millie relates best with older or younger characters, whereas in the company of people of a similar age she seems out of place (either treated badly by her employers, where she seems like a child; or disdainfully by the people at the apartments, where she seems like an older person desperately trying to 'get down and groove with the kids')

Millie's attempt at maturity is mainly sexual at first and it is her desperation that drives her to bring Edgar back to the apartment for a one night stand. She has sunk to the bottom and also feels able to take out her anger on Pinky - I feel in an act of self hatred, because if she is worthless then Pinky, by being with her and looking up to her, must be even less than she is (in a way she acts in that scene the way that the unsympathetic minor characters do to her!)

She might drive Pinky to attempt suicide (though I'm not sure I would call it suicide - more on that later) but at the same time Pinky's 'accident' saves Millie. It cuts short her relations with Edgar (I would disagree with Gregory here that Willie has her extreme reaction to Pinky but instead she has the reaction from seeing first Millie then Edgar coming down the stairs from the apartment. She's put two and two together at that point and the scene which follows of her watching Pinky in the hospital is a kind of acknowledgement and understanding of why Pinky fell/jumped into the pool), and given Millie a chance to prove her maturity in non-sexual terms. This is where the film shifts from Pinky's point of view gazing at Millie to the exact opposite of Millie watching Pinky. I find it heartbreaking that Millie's maturity in finding Pinky's parents, standing up for her at the Hydrotherapy Clinic and then quitting in sympathy coincides and is completely overshadowed by Pinky's own growth from girl into teen. Any thanks Millie may have expected from the doe-eyed Pinky is absent.

I kind of think of the next section as the Single White Female part of the film! I feel that Pinky, who so looked up to and read Millie's journal, is changed after the coma into someone who is combining Pinky's impressions of what Millie was like from her public persona (the face Millie was presenting to the world and in her diary of an outgoing, sexy, fun loving, and well liked person) but is doing it with far more success than Millie ever managed! That must be devastating, to have someone else succeed at being 'you' better than you could!

Also in this section the diary scenes remind me of the phrase that people write diaries to be read, there is no point in writing them otherwise. The early scene of Millie writing her diary seems to show another reason for writing - to reinforce your persona. Perhaps if she writes about her life in exciting and happy terms perhaps it will turn her life into something better than it is (I also like the emphasis on Pinky's writing mimicky in that scene). Pinky is a perfect audience for Millie's self-aggrandisement in those early scenes but becomes a hybrid after coming out of her coma. I love the scene of Millie reading Pinky's diary, in a counterpoint of the earlier scene, where it becomes apparent that Pinky has also taken on board the rejection Millie dealt out to her in the earlier section and incorporated that into a disdain for Millie, and wish to see her leave the apartment now!

Edgar is the element that ties all three characters together - he has made Willie pregnant, Millie attempts to have sex with him, Pinky once she takes on Millie's fantasy characteristics succeeds in that attempt.

I get the impression that the ending is a comment on Millie being the lucky one - Willie is defined by her relationship with Edgar, as partner, pregnant wife, bereaved and bereft widow (the body). Pinky vacilates between shyly deferent femininity and gun toting vixen before becoming truly childish (the mind, in the sense that a persona is a mental construction). Millie in that final scene is neither - or maybe both in balance and not taken to extremes. She's the motherly figure without having had sex and the daughter without, well, having had sex! (I think there is a big theme of fascination with, and fear of, sex in the film. The shock of older people enjoying the act; the feeling that everyone is having sex around the pool but you and you are being left out somehow; the sharing of a single man in Edgar)

I also saw some parallels to characters in J.G. Ballard's works (I promise this will be the last time I shoehorn him into a topic, but he really seems to have a novel or short story to cover most issues!), of characters who are dissatisfied with their world and take bizarre, even transgressive, steps to make the world make sense to them.

I particularly liked the water theme in the film. It feels as if the film is illustrating a life cycle (backwards) through water - beginning with the hydrotherapy pool for the elderly, through the barren pool at the back of the bar and the full swimming pool surrounded by young adults at the apartments, to the wave machine toy a child would play with. It all seems to be leading towards the baby in the womb, soon to be stillborn.

For me Willie seems at first to be orchestrating the action through the murals in the pool at the apartment or the empty pool, as if she were a sorceress performing a kind of ritual. The way that the murals at times appear to be commenting on the action seems to suggest this, and I particularly like the way that Willie is shown stirring the water in the pool at the apartment before Millie brings Edgar back and Pinky has her 'accident' in the pool. It is as if Willie herself is stirring the events up to a climactic point (this again is very like Ballard, where characters produce strange objects or diagrams, or put mundane things into a new order in an attempt to either understand or prepare for a transformative event. There is even a short story by Ballard set in an empty pool which brought 3 Women to mind as soon as I read it!).

However as the film goes on Willie herself seems not to be the orchestrater but someone seeming to act as if under compulsion, as if she is driven by an unknown need to create her murals (otherwise known as the artistic impulse! :wink: ). Could the figures be protectors or demons? (maybe both, and could compare to the way a gun brings a feeling of safety and protection yet also has the potential to cause much greater damage).

By the end I think we are meant to feel shocked by how strange the world the characters are in has become from the seemingly mundane and grounded reality of the early part of the film, but in a sense the three women have restructured their world to work for them whereas before everything seemed to be 'correct' but was conspiring against them in many different ways. They've "kicked the last male off the rock" and have created an insular, unsustainable, even insane world, but isn't that the world in a nutshell?
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Feego
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Re: 230 3 Women

#37 Post by Feego »

colinr0380 wrote:They've "kicked the last male off the rock" and have created an insular, unsustainable, even insane world, but isn't that the world in a nutshell?
Wonderful post, Colin. I find the tragedy of the ending to be that the women have rejected males and the patriarchal structure of society only to, in a sense, recreate it with females. Their world, in the end, is barren, lonely, and as you say, unsustainable and insane. Although they have escaped the opression and abuse of men (and pretty much everyone else), they are still bound by the rigid structures of a society based on a familial connection. I have long believed that both 3 Women and A Wedding present a rather negative view of the traditional family. For me, the most triumphant character in A Wedding is...
Spoiler
the grandmother (Lillian Gish), whose peaceful death spares her the embarassment of the reception and grants her an escape from the insanity of her family. The groom's father (Vittorio Gassman) comes close to triumph in his final abandonment of his family (the lyrics "I've tried in my way to be free" are sung by an offscreen character as he drives away), but he reattaches himself to his family in Italy, represented by his brother. It remains a mystery how this turns out.
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Gregory
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Re: 230 3 Women

#38 Post by Gregory »

There's a lot I could address in your post, Colin, but for now will just stick to this, continuing from the earlier discussion:
colinr0380 wrote:...Pinky's 'accident' saves Millie. It cuts short her relations with Edgar (I would disagree with Gregory here that Willie has her extreme reaction to Pinky but instead she has the reaction from seeing first Millie then Edgar coming down the stairs from the apartment. She's put two and two together at that point and the scene which follows of her watching Pinky in the hospital is a kind of acknowledgement and understanding of why Pinky fell/jumped into the pool), and given Millie a chance to prove her maturity in non-sexual terms.
I see Willie as totally in shock even before Millie and Edgar come down. One could surely argue that any sensitive person would be that shaken up after having jumped into a pool to pull out a near victim of drowning, but to me something about the feel of the scene suggests a special bond that Willie feels toward Pinky (and vice-versa elsewhere in the film, as I've suggested) even though they don't know each other at all in conventional terms. Maybe this is just something I just sense and can't argue for convincingly.

If you watch the film again soon the way you said you were planning to do, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this more general question of Willie's connection to the other two women in roughly the first 3/4 of the film.
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Re: 230 3 Women

#39 Post by mmacklem »

Gregory wrote:I see Willie as totally in shock even before Millie and Edgar come down. One could surely argue that any sensitive person would be that shaken up after having jumped into a pool to pull out a near victim of drowning, but to me something about the feel of the scene suggests a special bond that Willie feels toward Pinky (and vice-versa elsewhere in the film, as I've suggested) even though they don't know each other at all in conventional terms. Maybe this is just something I just sense and can't argue for convincingly.
I'm with Gregory on this one, Willie seems pretty traumatized even before she sees Edgar: as I recall, she is in the pool, holding herself in her arms when Millie leaves her apartment, and Edgar comes out a few minutes after that.

One thought that I'd had while reading this discussion is that I think the observation of the three characters at the end representing the three stages of womanhood is slightly oversimplified and missing one important consideration. In Altman's commentary, he refers at one point to Pinky as being like an alien, dropped into a social environment without even the most basic tools for determining how to respond to or interact with those around her. If Pinky represents the beginning of the process of development, Willie seems to have come out the other end in the developmental process in a similar state as Pinky begins. So the ending, with Pinky and Willie together on the porch, seems to represent a cyclical state of this process.
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Re: 230 3 Women

#40 Post by mfunk9786 »

Shelley Duvall, in [url=http://www.mondo-video.com/hello-im-shelley-duvall]this[/url] recent interview wrote:Of all your Altman films, which one do you like the most? Which do you think has your most memorable and important performance?

I think 3 Women – it has definitely become a fan favorite! It comes to mind because I had such a good time making it, and I also won a Cannes Film Festival Best Actress award, which was a amazing honor!!
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mfunk9786
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Re: 230 3 Women

#41 Post by mfunk9786 »

One of the best films in the collection has been announced on Blu-ray!
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tojoed
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Re: 230 3 Women

#42 Post by tojoed »

mfunk9786 wrote:One of Altman's worst films has been announced on Blu-ray!
Fixed.
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dad1153
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Re: 230 3 Women

#43 Post by dad1153 »

And guess which movie I bought on DVD during the last B&N sale? I swear, every got damn time...
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mfunk9786
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Re: 230 3 Women

#44 Post by mfunk9786 »

tojoed wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:One of Altman's worst films has been announced on Blu-ray!
Fixed.
Note to self: Irrationally hate tojoed
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tojoed
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Re: 230 3 Women

#45 Post by tojoed »

Ah, well, we can't all like the same things.
I love Robert Altman, but this film just fell apart after the first half hour.
I saw it twice in the late seventies, but haven't wanted to see it since.
I might get this and have another look.
Last edited by tojoed on Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mfunk9786
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Re: 230 3 Women

#46 Post by mfunk9786 »

Why nottttttt
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knives
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Re: 230 3 Women

#47 Post by knives »

I see Altman the way I do Hawks. Every movie no matter how Rio Lobo will have it's defenders, but no one will defend every title.
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tojoed
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Re: 230 3 Women

#48 Post by tojoed »

You're right, knives. I know people who even like Quintet.
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Forrest Taft
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Re: 230 3 Women

#49 Post by Forrest Taft »

I do. Beyond Therapy on the other hand...
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matrixschmatrix
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Re: 230 3 Women

#50 Post by matrixschmatrix »

Does anybody like Dr. T and the Women?
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