Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

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paranoid-knight2008
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#26 Post by paranoid-knight2008 »

Cde. wrote:
AWA wrote:I haven't seen this but a friend has and hated it... he also told me that (apparently) the filmmakers were so incompetent that, despite the fact the story is set in Chicago, they show the TORONTO skyline (which is where the film, like many Hollywood productions, was made)... which obviously has some distinguishing features like, I don't know, the CN TOWER! :lol:
That would be like showing the Paris skyline and saying the film is supposed to be in London.
I haven't seen the film, so I can't comment on the worth of this complaint, but it's sort of proving paranoid-knight's point when he starts a thread claiming this as an undervalued film, asking people to give it a chance and see it for themselves...and one of the replies basically says "my friend says it sucks" and laughs at it based on an alleged flaw picked up on by someone else.
Its no problem, Cde. It happens all the time. I posted my feelings for its undervalue on IMDb and they laughed me off and said that they haven't seen the film, but it won 9 Razzies so they know its horrible.

I've never seen a film get so much hate without seeing it...! :(
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mfunk9786
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#27 Post by mfunk9786 »

I can't remember the last time I've seen a thread devoted to such a feverish defense of a film by someone who prefaces the whole thread by saying that the film is
paranoid-knight2008 wrote:far from being a masterpiece
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#28 Post by paranoid-knight2008 »

mfunk9786 wrote:I can't remember the last time I've seen a thread devoted to such a feverish defense of a film by someone who prefaces the whole thread by saying that the film is
paranoid-knight2008 wrote:far from being a masterpiece
Yes, I said it was far from a masterpiece. But to me, it is one of the best films of 2003, and I really want more to see it instead of jumping to conclusions with it. That is why I defend it so much. O:)
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#29 Post by paranoid-knight2008 »

This is a post I currently made on IMDb - concerning more "Gigli". Lol. It was inspired by a poster who hated the movie, called it one of the worst, and a few months later admitted he finally actually watched it and really liked it. :D

Why do ALL the critics that hated 'Gigli' have the same reasons and without any additional comments onto why they feel that way? :?
Hopelessly misconceived exercise in celebrity self-worship. - A.O. Scott, New York Times
How so? It was not a pet project for Affleck and Lopez, they didn't get together until during filming. And before they began production, Halle Berry was signed to play Lopez's part. Where is this worship you say?
There's virtually no story, no conflict, no tension and no suspense, just the endless droning of the worst dialogue written in recent memory. -Bill Muller, Arizona Replublic
Does anybody realize Gigli isn't about a plot? It's about the people involved. And I still want to hear a valid reason why the dialogue is horrible. It's not. It fits the film's themes and morals on sexual design and masculine aggression.
The script is utterly predictable, right up to the ‘see if you can convert the lesbian’ element, and I’ve got to wonder how firm Ricki’s lesbian leanings are if she can be made to waver by a goof like Gigli. This guy has nothing to offer other than a tattoo and an overblown sense of himself, yet somehow Ricki is won over. It just doesn’t add up. But nothing does here. We’re to believe that this whole plot would unfold without the mob boss even knowing about it, and that kidnappers would actually take their prisoner to restaurants and all over town like he’s a visiting cousin. And then, of course, there’s the question of why the thugs would get squeamish when it comes time to cause some harm to their ‘package.’ They’ve never hurt anyone before? Isn’t that their job? - Brian Webster, Apollo Guide
Two comments here...

They are NOT killers! Larry is working for a mob, he is very untrained and new to it all, but tries to overtly show-off what is not true. Ricki is a contracter, she is not a killer, or apart of the mob. She is there to keep an eye on Larry, simple as that.

And the fact that many like to believe Larry "coverted" Ricki - how is that? She is totally not in love with him. He's in love with her, and she understands his sexual issues and she teases and plays with him about it. She's helping him overcome this fear in his sexual self. At the end, she does not become straight. And the sex scene is not as much a love scene as it is a teaching. Ricki is showing Larry where he fits at, on a soft feminine side, as opposed to the gender role and he completely shows himself off as. Watch the sex scene - its about dominance, not love.
It's a sorry statement, when the actor that has the most subtle performance is the kid with Tourette's. - themoviechicks.com
Apparently the film's theme of masculine aggression flew over your head...
Once you get past the staggering question of who gave this thing the green light, Gigli actually turns into a uniquely bad movie that yields real laughter. - Chris Vognar, Dallas Morning News
Did it ever occur to you that the film was supposed to be a comedy? (There are many reviews that state negatives that the film is funny.)
J.Lo's infamous 'turkey time' line is pretty awful. - Dan Fazio, Citysearch
Obviously, you don't realize that in terms of sexual design of human beings, playful, silly banter is sometimes involved. That line is a play on that, and it was not meant to be unintentionally funny. Watch Larry's reaction when Ricki says it. She's, once again, teasing him over his male aggression.
Guys, I'm telling you: Don't go to this movie! It's Chasing Amy with guns! You're walking into a trap! - Desson Thomson, Washington Post
Funny you mention it since Chasing Amy isn't about male aggression and gender roles and is a romantic comedy, as opposed to Gigli's dramedy. And guns? What movie did you see? They are mobsters, but there's only one scene with a gun that comes 90 minutes into the movie and lasts no longer than a minute.
There was more wrong with this unconventional romantic comedy than right.
It's NOT a romantic comedy. The hoopla over Affleck and Lopez's tabloid crazy relationship resulted in the studio branding it a romantic comedy. But it's not, and anybody who sees the movie knows that. Those who call it one either seen an entirely different movie, or joined the hater bandwagon.
Has no story, no redeeming characters that anyone could care about, and the actors are all on autopilot, completely soaked with their own vanity. - David Grove, Film Threat
Once again, there was never meant to be any plot; and the character aren't supposed to be likable. On autopilot and soaking in their own vanity? Once again - this was NOT a vanity project as most believe. Lopez didn't even join the film until the last minute, and didn't make their relationship known until the film was practically done. The STUDIO made it SEEM like a vanity romantic comedy.
Formless windbag of a romantic comedy with bits of gangster flick stuck to the edges. - Ella Taylor, L.A. Weekly
Between suicidal stalking ex-lovers and homoerotic roster changes, the balance of the romantic comedy genre has never been more confused as to which side had less weight. - Erik Childress, eCritic.com
Does EVERYBODY think it is a romantic comedy? :roll:
This could have been a more intriguing and darker tale. Evil people can fall in love, too . . . but, gosh, this isn't that movie. Ben and Jen are just too cute for nasty roles like that. - Gerry Shamray, Sun Newspapers of Cleveland
What exactly are you saying? Earlier in the review you stated how the characters were too unlikable and now you are drawing negatives to how they aren't unlikable enough?? Bandwagon, perhaps?

And I read onto about 80% of the other reviews on Rotten Tomatoes and most of the critics are either calling the film a romantic comedy. Call the characters unlikable. Claim the dialogue is unbelievable. And taking punches at it like they are all trying to see who can make the best joke about it. One review says: "It's a rigli rigli bad movie." And yet, none of them say anything different? However, the good reviews for it make sense. And its funny, because they don't see the film as a romantic comedy like most of everyone else did.
What has its own studio running scared and many of our more doltish critics crowing is the fact that, instead of some glossy, b.o-targeted Hollywood romantic caper, this is a very small-scale character study, a close American studio approximation to a European art film or psyche-driven indie. -David Noh, filmjournal.com
Amen. It is NOT the film the studio and venomous reviews have you believe.
Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez have more character shades and depth than is the norm for the genre, and they delight in the showy and witty dialogue they get to speak. The ending is idealistic and not completely believable, but it also works, in spite of the reasons it shouldn't, because it earns it. "Gigli" may not be a life-changing motion picture, but it is always likable. Most of all, and most importantly, it has a good heart. - Dustin Putman, themovieboy.com
You are right. It earns its ending because of the message involved. It's not a romance, so its not going to have that romantic ending every Hollywood rom-com has. It's a character study. And while the characters are unlikable, the heart is in the right place, and it realism to character is what makes it so naturally understanding with the themes it has presented throughout the entire film. Sexual design, masculine aggression, and the social outlook on it.
Let's say you decided to make a movie much like "My Dinner With Andre," except putting a ravishing Latina in the Andre Gregory role and giving the Wallace Shawn part to a handsome hunk of oak, and making the characters small-time hoods, and adding Tarantino touches from "True Romance" and hints of Hallstrom from "What's Eating Gilbert Grape," yet making the key thematic element an investigation of a very kind of Sun Tze war between the sexes. What might you call it? In this case, you'd call it "Gigli" (pronounced...well, geez, say it however you like; one can expect this at least to be the most mispronounced movie of the year). You might also call it one of the least expected movies of the year, one that is likely to leave some theatre attendees nigh on enthralled--count this as from one of those--and have others escaping to the exits. - Kim Williamson, boxoffice.com
I agree. It's not what the studio promoted it as, so many are going to go in expecting something different (or expecting to hate it with bias) when really, it is a simple character study with heavy, heavy dialogue and wit over sexuality.
It's one of the most probing comedies in recent memory, a progressive step forward for mainstream American film's attitudes about gender roles, and a truly touching deconstruction of masculine aggression. Perhaps more than any other movie this year, enjoyment of Gigli required the viewer to forget the hype. If you're willing to remove the word "Bennifer" from your vocabulary before you view it, you might be pleasantly surprised. hough Gigli is unlikely to be rediscovered by future generations as a lost masterpiece, I can’t help but imagine it will be evaluated more kindly by those who aren’t caught up in the present day tabloid zeitgeist. Because of its humble proficiency, seriousness of intent and sexual adventurousness, it’s become the unfortunate pariah of a film culture that expects Hollywood to turn out only gee-whiz showiness and superficial plays at emotion. It’s an ambitious film that merits serious consideration, but because of external biases, few seem willing to take it seriously. - Jeremy Heilman, moviemartyr.com
Couldn't have said it better myself! :)

It's funny, because I was talking to a guy on IMDB's Oscar Buzz board about how I loved Gigli, and he said he hated it; adding on that he felt it was one of the worst movies he had ever seen. I asked for his reason? "It's a stupid romantic comedy with hammy dialogue, and it won many Razzies." Okay... whatever. :roll: I mean, I respected his opinion on it, until a few months later, I ran by the same guy on the Gigli message board on IMDb. He made a post stating: how he likes it now that he watched it, and how he regrets making fun of it and calling it one of the worst before actually seeing it.

WHY hate or love a film you never saw? It makes no sense to me. It what's even more bizarre how it all works out with the movie. There is nobody in my actual life that I know who didn't love the film after watching it. It's funny because almost all of them are those that avoid reviews and awards, etc. But when it came to my grandpa (who heard it was the worst movie ever by a critic on our local news station) he hated it. "How can you love that movie, Douglas," he said. "When the guy on TV said it was the worst ever?" And I replied: "I'm not that guy on TV." He looked at me, shook his head, and didn't say a word...

Comments? :wink:
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domino harvey
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#30 Post by domino harvey »

paranoid-knight2008 wrote:And I still want to hear a valid reason why the dialogue is horrible. It's not.
paranoid-knight2008 wrote:It's turkey time," Ricki says. "Gobble gobble." And follows that up with: "I thought you wanted to be my bitch."
Case closed.
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Fiery Angel
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#31 Post by Fiery Angel »

P-K 2008 is obviously Armond in disguise.
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#32 Post by James »

domino harvey wrote:
paranoid-knight2008 wrote:And I still want to hear a valid reason why the dialogue is horrible. It's not.
paranoid-knight2008 wrote:It's turkey time," Ricki says. "Gobble gobble." And follows that up with: "I thought you wanted to be my bitch."
Case closed.
Yep, I really like Martin Brest, and this is a great movie, but will come right out and say the dialogue sucks.
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#33 Post by Antoine Doinel »

Fiery Angel wrote:P-K 2008 is obviously Armond in disguise.
I thought we all agreed Barmy was AW? Maybe PK2008 is AW's intern.
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#34 Post by Jun-Dai »

When I watched the film, I kept thinking that the editor or cameraman had gotten bored and left many of the scenes running unintentionally beyond its natural ending point. For me, the film was a failure because it was a film about dialogue, and both the dialogue and acting were quite terrible. I think I remember the low point of the film being some long-ass scene with JLo doing strange yoga poses while carrying on a conversation with Affleck. I think that scene lasted like six minutes or something. It really had very little going for it, except for Pacino's brief scenes, and Walken's occasional nonsense deliveries (the bit about Marie Callenders—we had to rewind and watch that scene a few times to see if he really said what we'd thought he'd said). I'd say the plot was terrible also, but I don't really remember a thing about it. In addition to the dialogue being poorly written and poorly delivered, the film also had a terrible sense of timing (dramatic or comedic), and scenes that should have remained short dragged on forever, and any scene that moved either the plot or character development forward would only last a few brief moments. The film was basically one big anticlimax.

I'm not sure what a "valid reason why the dialogue is horrible" would look like for any film, but suffice it to say I only found the dialogue remotely enjoyable when it made no sense whatsoever, and mostly I found myself cringing for the few minutes it took to get from one of these humorously bad lines to the next.

Was it the worst film I've ever seen? No. I've seen a lot of bad movies, and I'm not sure this would make the grade. But it would definitely be a very special version of hell to find myself locked in a room with this as the only movie I could put on.
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#35 Post by Robert de la Cheyniest »

Also, Paranoid Knight I think you'll see a lot of films defended and challenged around these parts, but I wouldn't use excerpts from boxoffice.com and moviemartyr.com as support for my argument. But I guess I didn't really need to come out and say that...
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#36 Post by mfunk9786 »

Wow, this thread is like a black hole. :shock:
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#37 Post by HerrSchreck »

Over and above the retarded dialogue, I thought the simple fact of the characters (every aspect of the supposed gangsters & their gangsterism in the film was utterly absurd) was utterly fatal from getgo.

PKnight: I'm going to say today what I wasn't going to say yesterday... wasnt going to say because its generally not a thing one should go about saying on a public forum, notwithstanding it sounds perfectly clique-ish and rude:

Owing to the fact that for you this film represents, if not something of an agenda (certainly the bulk of your posting concerns it), then surely an ongoing project of attempted public rehabilitation not likely to end any time soon.. and owing to the fact that the vast majority of the membership of this forum doesn't even want to think about this movie, and that the few who do are going to keep giving you the responses you're getting-- might I suggest with all friendliness and humility that you're on the wrong forum? I mean it's like you've walked into a private auto collectors expo dedicated to the vintage Morgan, Triumph, MG and Austin Martin and continuously try to convince the membership about the merits of the Toyota Corolla.

Just a friendly suggestion. Of course, the entertainment value is nontheless through the roof for the thread, so feel free...
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#38 Post by paranoid-knight2008 »

HerrSchreck wrote:Over and above the retarded dialogue, I thought the simple fact of the characters (every aspect of the supposed gangsters & their gangsterism in the film was utterly absurd) was utterly fatal from getgo.

PKnight: I'm going to say today what I wasn't going to say yesterday... wasnt going to say because its generally not a thing one should go about saying on a public forum, notwithstanding it sounds perfectly clique-ish and rude:

Owing to the fact that for you this film represents, if not something of an agenda (certainly the bulk of your posting concerns it), then surely an ongoing project of attempted public rehabilitation not likely to end any time soon.. and owing to the fact that the vast majority of the membership of this forum doesn't even want to think about this movie, and that the few who do are going to keep giving you the responses you're getting-- might I suggest with all friendliness and humility that you're on the wrong forum? I mean it's like you've walked into a private auto collectors expo dedicated to the vintage Morgan, Triumph, MG and Austin Martin and continuously try to convince the membership about the merits of the Toyota Corolla.

Just a friendly suggestion. Of course, the entertainment value is nontheless through the roof for the thread, so feel free...
Thanks. Glad to know I don't belong here. :(
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Jun-Dai
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#39 Post by Jun-Dai »

Ignore him.

That said, you might do better if you don't assume that people only dislike the film for ulterior motives or that they haven't even seen it. Also, I'm not sure what the point was of rebutting random rottentomatoes.com professional reviewer windmills is.

So… er… what other films do you like?
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#40 Post by Caged Horse »

Call it the cinematic approximation of "Don't ask, don't tell": we're all allowed guilty pleasures -- mine would include Michael Crichton's Looker and, most recently, Monsters vs Aliens -- but proselytising is a no-no.

Besides, surely any argument which resorts to, "Oh, but such-and-such is intentionally bad!" is automatically suspect?
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#41 Post by paranoid-knight2008 »

Jun-Dai wrote:So… er… what other films do you like?
Quite a lot actually. :D

Some of my very favorites, though, happen to be: Haxan, City Lights, Pinocchio, Forbidden Games, East of Eden, Nights of Cabiria, Vertigo, Last Year at Marienbad, L'eclisse, My Life to Live, Fists in the Pocket, Badlands, Don't Look Now, 3 Women, Halloween, A nos amours, Running on Empty, Magnolia, and Mulholland Drive . The list goes on. I now have a top 200. Haha.

And to everybody:

The whole point of that post comes from my wanting to figure out why I am in such a minority over that film. I mean, I don't find "Gigli" a guilty pleasure, I find it a well-written, very good film. I'm really trying to understand why others feel different, and it baffles me when I read what others say. No other film have I been so baffled by when it comes to external views. I don't know.. maybe I should just not talk about it.. Haha.
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#42 Post by HerrSchreck »

Jun-Dai wrote:Ignore him.
He says, about the guy who humbly and self-effacingly suggests this might not be the right forum for him.. then wraps a warm arm around PKnight via
Jun-Dai wrote:That said, you might do better if you don't assume that people only dislike the film for ulterior motives or that they haven't even seen it.?
Telling him how to modify his thinking to suit the forum, then
Jun-Dai wrote:Also, I'm not sure what the point was of rebutting random rottentomatoes.com professional reviewer windmills is..?
tells him to modify his posting-style
Jun-Dai wrote:So… er… what other films do you like?
Tries to restart the conversation as though he were talking to Massive Headwound Harry.

PKnight: who is sparing your integrity? The guy who tells you to change to suit the forum? Or the guy who tells you to be yourself.. in a place where you wont be goofed on?
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#43 Post by paranoid-knight2008 »

HerrSchreck wrote:PKnight: who is sparing your integrity? The guy who tells you to change to suit the forum? Or the guy who tells you to be yourself.. in a place where you wont be goofed on?
I'm confused on why you think I don't belong here. This is a Criterion forum, and about 50-60% of my all-time favorite films have been released through Criterion.

"Gigli" is just a film I am really trying to put my thumb onto WHY I like - and what better way than to get help by those I know who love the other kind of films I do as well? :|
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#44 Post by Mr Sausage »

paranoid-knight2008 wrote:
HerrSchreck wrote:PKnight: who is sparing your integrity? The guy who tells you to change to suit the forum? Or the guy who tells you to be yourself.. in a place where you wont be goofed on?
I'm confused on why you think I don't belong here. This is a Criterion forum, and about 50-60% of my all-time favorite films have been released through Criterion.

"Gigli" is just a film I am really trying to put my thumb onto WHY I like - and what better way than to get help by those I know who love the other kind of films I do as well?
Seriously, just ignore him. However sugar-coated, his suggestion is spurious: there is no reason for you to leave, and there is no reason why you shouldn't belong here. Don't let it worry you, and no defenses are necessary. You've done nothing to show that you don't belong.
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#45 Post by HerrSchreck »

paranoid-knight2008 wrote:
HerrSchreck wrote:PKnight: who is sparing your integrity? The guy who tells you to change to suit the forum? Or the guy who tells you to be yourself.. in a place where you wont be goofed on?
I'm confused on why you think I don't belong here. This is a Criterion forum, and about 50-60% of my all-time favorite films have been released through Criterion.

"Gigli" is just a film I am really trying to put my thumb onto WHY I like - and what better way than to get help by those I know who love the other kind of films I do as well?
paranoid-knight2008 wrote:I'm confused on why you think I don't belong here.
I don't have any active thoughts about you one way or another-- It's about the conversation about this film you most earnestly and emphatically wish to have, that you're not getting.. you put it down, give ittime and pick it back up because You Really Feel Strongly About This.

I'm just looking at two pages of forum snickering you're earning instead of serious conversation, and how you're not getting the response you want or need-- and I'm merely observing: Probably Wrong Audience.

That's all, friend. (There's no "sugar coating", btw) Pls don't take it personally and make it about you-- it's about the conversation itself. And it was just a friendly suggestion, so you could do the thing you want to do, with more success, and less ridicule. There's no malevolence on my end. And I should clarify I mean this only about this Gigli thing.
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#46 Post by paranoid-knight2008 »

Pls don't take it personally and make it about you-- it's about the conversation itself. And it was just a friendly suggestion, so you could do the thing you want to do, with more success, and less ridicule. There's no malevolence on my end. And I should clarify I mean this only about this Gigli thing.
But why must I be ridiculed whenever I bring up Gigli? It is a film and I'd like to discuss it, but nobody is willing to take it seriously... :(
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domino harvey
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#47 Post by domino harvey »

My objection isn't that he likes an unpopular film, but how he likes it. Everyone here has their idiosyncratic favorites that the board doesn't share. But the difference between a regular poster whose tastes and capacity to appreciate film has been proven by how they discuss film coming out to rally around an offbeat choice and a newcomer tirelessly and rather vapidly defending an unpopular title and then getting defensive about it is rather large. Why should there be preferential treatment for someone who has admitted he doesn't even know why he likes the film under discussion-- and in a film discussion he himself started? Any regular filling two pages of a thread with similarly empty posts would be equally derided, if not even more so.
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#48 Post by paranoid-knight2008 »

domino harvey wrote:My objection isn't that he likes an unpopular film, but how he likes it. Everyone here has their idiosyncratic favorites that the board doesn't share. But the difference between a regular poster whose tastes and capacity to appreciate film has been proven by how they discuss film coming out to rally around an offbeat choice and a newcomer tirelessly and rather vapidly defending an unpopular title and then getting defensive about it is rather large. Why should there be preferential treatment for someone who has admitted he doesn't even know why he likes the film under discussion-- and in a film discussion he himself started? Any regular filling two pages of a thread with similarly empty posts would be equally derided, if not even more so.
It's not that I can't describe why I love it. I easily can. It's just my reasons are the complete opposite of what anybody wants to take seriously. Like you for instance, mentioning against how I like the dialogue by bringing up a line which I thought was finely written under the circumstances in the screenplay, but you feel was badly written. You didn't take it seriously at all, but instead resorted to making almost a sassy call-out. Why is that badly written to you? And also, have you even seen the film? 8-[
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domino harvey
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#49 Post by domino harvey »

I've already answered one of your questions. As for the dialog you're praising, there is no conceivable context under which "It's turkey time" is clever or funny. It infantalizes sexual behavior in a blithely cheesy manner that would embarrass even that kid in middle school who got popular by telling dirty jokes from the back of the bus.

Most of us here balance an open mind with the courage of our convictions, but you seem both immobile and unsure. The fact that people disagreeing bothers you so much might signal some inner doubt as to your own positions
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Re: Gigli (Martin Brest, 2003)

#50 Post by Antoine Doinel »

Honestly, before this thread becomes even more of a trainwreck all I can say PK2008 is that it might make your life easier on this board if you spent some time lurking so you can better understand the kinds of films that our members are talking about and get a better sense of the personalities of our members. You are taking it far too personally that there is pretty much no interest in discussing this film. Let it go and move on.
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