Von Stroheim's Greed

[Tommaso]

At least that filesize seemed conspicuously familiar to me. I know nothing about itunes, but at least I would have expected the download to be normal dvd files if they want anyone to pay for it; with 2,4 gigs it must be divX or something similar.

Oh dear, sometimes I hate to be right in my predictions... Two months ago or so I wrote:

Let's wait and see what happens in 2024 ?

Low quality DivX download from the Warner Archive Collection.

Seems I only got the year and the company wrong. And at that time I was only joking...

[Gregory]

As a follow-up to my earlier point about download-only availability restricting access: I happened to be reading the current issue of American Libraries and came across this article. As the article suggests, an increasing number of things are available only from iTunes for download only to end use customers, which shuts out libraries from the role they've normally played in making these types of materials available to patrons and ensuring their future availability.

[jaredsap]

At least that filesize seemed conspicuously familiar to me. I know nothing about itunes, but at least I would have expected the download to be normal dvd files if they want anyone to pay for it; with 2,4 gigs it must be divX or something similar.

Standard definition iTunes movies are always 640x480 mp4. They are not quite DVD-quality (720x480 mp2), but respectable nonetheless. Apple's mp4 compression techniques are more sophisticated than what's found on DVDs. I bought GREED. It looks fine.

I stupidly posted about GREED's availability thinking someone on this forum would actually want to watch the film rather than just howl at the moon and whine about how evil WB, Apple, newfangled technology, etc. is. Nobody, not even WB, would claim GREED on iTunes is a suitable substitute for a DVD release. But it's a start. GREED is now legally available to tens of millions of people across the US who do not have access to (or cannot play) the OOP VHS found at a few libraries. (Plus, the iTunes file obviously looks better than the VHS.)

[Gregory]

I stupidly posted about GREED's availability thinking someone on this forum would actually want to watch the film rather than just howl at the moon and whine about how evil WB, Apple, newfangled technology, etc. is.

If that's your summary of all the points raised so far, it speaks poorly of you, either in terms of intelligence or fairness -- I don't claim to know which. It's always much easier to write off people's views as "whining" and lump different perspectives into a simple-minded caricature rather than admit that someone else might have raised a point worth considering. If you only want people to watch the film and have no discussion about what this news means for the home video market, then it seems you're in the wrong place.

Nobody, not even WB, would claim GREED on iTunes is a suitable substitute for a DVD release.

You don't know what WB would say about whether it's "suitable." Actions speak louder than words, anyway.

But it's a start. GREED is now legally available to tens of millions of people across the US who do not have access to (or cannot play) the OOP VHS found at a few libraries. (Plus, the iTunes file obviously looks better than the VHS.)

One or another VHS release of Greed is in hundreds of libraries in the U.S. alone, not a few. Surely the iTunes file does look better at least in some respects, but it's already been made clear that there's more to the issue than that. And yes, Greed is more available (legally) now than it was before, but the same would be true if they had merely reissued the VHS. That would also be a ridiculous decision.

[jaredsap]

If that's your summary of all the points raised so far, it speaks poorly of you, either in terms of intelligence or fairness -- I don't claim to know which. It's always much easier to write off people's views as "whining" and lump different perspectives into a simple-minded caricature rather than admit that someone else might have raised a point worth considering.

Valid points have been raised, though usually couched in ill-considered rancor. What I see is a lot of people blinded by (understandable) anger that WB has continually misled them about how they'll treat their silents. But that shouldn't be an excuse to make the situation appear so one-sided and disregard all the value in releasing GREED on iTunes.

You don't know what WB would say about whether it's "suitable." Actions speak louder than words, anyway.

Actions speak about financial realities. I work at a studio and I know a lot more about the motivations behind WB's behavior here than anyone who has posted in this thread and jumped to conclusions.

[Gregory]

Valid points have been raised, though usually couched in ill-considered rancor. What I see is a lot of people blinded by (understandable) anger that WB has continually misled them about how they'll treat their silents. But that shouldn't be an excuse to make the situation appear so one-sided and disregard all the value in releasing GREED on iTunes.

That sounds much fairer, and I can understand where you're coming from a bit better when you put it that way. I will readily admit that there is some benefit to iTunes availability, but I think a lot hinges on whether or not it's going to be iTunes exclusive. There has been a worrisome trend toward that. The article I linked names several examples. If a DVD is indeed forthcoming, they could allay many of our concerns by making more honest and concrete announcements about what their plans are. If not, I think the rancor is fully justified.

Actions speak about financial realities. I work at a studio and I know a lot more about the motivations behind WB's behavior here than anyone who has posted in this thread and jumped to conclusions.

I think we're probably all in agreement that financial realities are part of what's going on with Warner. And I do find it interesting that the "they're a business, not a charity" thing that people use to deflect criticism from Criterion seems to never be invoked on behalf of the major studios. However, I can't see how this is purely a financial necessity that involves no neglect of the importance of a film like Greed. If stuff like The Patsy, Exit Smiling, and The Boob are expected to sell enough to warrant Warner Archive "releases" than surely so would Greed. As for a DVD release, perhaps Greed would not sell as well in the current economy than The Jazz Singer did two years ago. But this brings us back to the question of why they dragged their feet so long in releasing Greed et al. so that now it may be too late.

[jaredsap]

I will readily admit that there is some benefit to iTunes availability, but I think a lot hinges on whether or not it's going to be iTunes exclusive. There has been a worrisome trend toward that. The article I linked names several examples. If a DVD is indeed forthcoming, they could allay many of our concerns by making more honest and concrete announcements about what their plans are. If not, I think the rancor is fully justified.

I agree. However, I believe GREED and other major WB silents will see the light of day on DVD. I know WB has been saying that for many years, and I know there is absolutely no reason to trust them (or me) at this point, but I think it'll happen.

[swo17]

GREED is now legally available to tens of millions of people across the US who do not have access to (or cannot play) the OOP VHS found at a few libraries. (Plus, the iTunes file obviously looks better than the VHS.)

Presumably, the people kicking up dirt here have already seen and come to love the film, and so merely having legal access to a digital copy is not a big selling point. I'm sure there are some people who are just casually interested in seeing it for the first time, and I'm glad they'll be able to. But it's only natural that such people won't be voicing their support of the sort-of availability of the film now with as much fervor as the people who have been clamoring for this title on DVD for years and see this as a kind of slap in the face. Nothing personal, Jared.

[markhax]

What is the rights situation for "Greed" in countries outside the US? I'm just asking because another long-announced and never-released title, Sjöström's "The Wind", is now available on disc in Italy, even if that is a somewhat sub-standard edition. So there might be some loopholes for getting "Greed" released in other countries, if Warner is unwilling to licence it to another company like Kino or CC.

The arte telecast of "Greed" has been on YouTube for a while, with German subtitles. So I assume they aired it. I had hoped it might show up on one of those Arte-Edition DVDs produced by Absolut-Medien, like "Intolerance" and "Birth of A Nation." But I don't understand the copyright in these matters.

[HerrSchreck]

First of all jared, the fact that you work at a studio means nothing-- after all, what is Warner Brothers.. some secret society whispering in underground caverns lit by little candles under a cieling marked with runic symbols, only to go about their business in the daytime under a code of omerta throwing signs at one another with chin and elbow jerks and hand gestures?

It's not like you're posting on LiveJournal here, among an amorphous mass of untargeted interests. Everyone knows the score here, and unless you have something WB-GREED specific, I'd ease up on the self-appointments to snuffling positions of Irritated Superiority.

It's no secret that times are tight for dvd producers, so there's little insight or hidden information there on your part which allows you to pronounce the irritation on this thread to be "ill considered". If I'm your boss at Sony, and I, for years, keep promising you something you want or need that other employees at other companies get, and I promise it to you within a ten month span of time, which comes and goes, then promise it to you again, and the allotted time comes and goes, then I go silent on the subject for years without making myself available for questions any longer... then these years after the fact and without a word I give you some cheap subsitute-- the last thing you're going to want to hear is some assistant in my office walking over to your table condemning you for your irritation, instructing you about the brashness of your manners... and when you ask him what he knows, he knows nothing more than you do. He's merely speaking from his loyalty to the boss as a result of his proximity to him.

We have a right to be a little irritated. Look at Kino, look at MoC, look at the BFI across the pond releasing two Borzages as we speak. WB had YEARS before the ecomony tanked to get this material out there. They're not putting this out on iTunes because they "want to get the film out but the economy is forcing them" to the "unpleasant venue of iTunes" (emphasis mine)-- they're more than likely putting this out on iTunes because they did nothing for all these years, and waited for doomsday, which has now officially come... and because they're experiencing doomsday they need to get everything unreleased out there in one way or another in a glut to generate maximum revenue, all with little to no overhead. SO now even GREED, since they never got it out there originally, suddenly gets a release, in the most disrespectful low budget form possible, because they can pull in a few badly needed pennies from it. Until they acknowledge the dialogue they had with their buyers those years ago about this title, and take up the issue of the DVD release specifically, people have a right to be annoyed. We're not fuming in a void of our own invention.

[jaredsap]

If I'm your boss at Sony, and I, for years, keep promising you something you want or need that other employees at other companies get, and I promise it to you within a ten month span of time, which comes and goes, then promise it to you again, and the allotted time comes and goes, then I go silent on the subject for years without making myself available for questions any longer... then these years after the fact and without a word I give you some cheap subsitute--

But that's not what happened.

In March 2009, after the announcement of the WB Archive and after the economy was already in the gutter, you got a response about GREED directly from WB:

[SteveG] Thanks for your reissues. Sorry if this has been asked, but is 'Greed' going to come out on DVD, Blu-ray or Customized DVD? I just hope customized DVDs come with bonus features related to the film. Hope to see more B&W films on Blu-Ray and another chat next year. Thanks for having these public movie chats!

[warnerbros] GREED will be coming out through our planned series of the silent films prepared by Kevin Brownlow. We hope we can get these in production shortly...but all plans are still formative.

Yes, they've been saying that for years. Yes, there's a certain point where impatience should rightfully turn to annoyance. But WB putting GREED on iTunes a few months after the response detailed above is not an admission that they've thrown in the towel on a more attractive GREED release down the line. Please take WB at their straightforward word above until you have concrete reason to believe otherwise.

[HerrSchreck]

Correct, and it's true I guess this could be technically construed as an "acknowledgement", but to me it was such an obvious non-answer that it hardly warrented attention. It's all smoke and mirrors and reading between the lines is the answer: they're not working on it, after the years of announced street-dates, plans are now "formative", and that they "hope" to get started on it. Translation-- they can't even name dates like they used to because the project is now Off Table (whereby it once was In House-- as opposed to a Brownlow-sourced project-- and "on" the docket)

The fact is and what everyone knows is: they're not like a CC or Kino where they have to wait for external sources to which they're beholden to kick into motion whereby they can get started. And yet-- now they're waiting for someone who has to license the title's rights from them to provide them with materials? Keeyah! They have a digibeta from the digitally mastered anniversary edition. They just need to enocode the discs and ship them out. They've been in this same spot for years, and still they refuse to begin work. I have no doubt they could get men like Koszarski and Skal or whomever to do video pieces and commentaries at no charge, if they wanted to go the route of producing extras. The fact that they're waiting for a Channel Four/Thames Silents source, and schluffing this off on them, is the most amusing part of all.

There's no reason for them to be in this situation, save they are simply not interested in devoting any manpower to this title. They're here because they put themselves here, end of story.

[Antoine Doinel]

Yes, they've been saying that for years. Yes, there's a certain point where impatience should rightfully turn to annoyance. But WB putting GREED on iTunes a few months after the response detailed above is not an admission that they've thrown in the towel on a more attractive GREED release down the line. Please take WB at their straightforward word above until you have concrete reason to believe otherwise.

The reason we believe otherwise, are George Feltenstein's comments earlier this year to Maclean's. He's gone on record saying that classics are having a hard time, and if you look at their confirmed forthcoming releases of BluRay and DVD titles they are all big, fancy sets of their big, fancy titles that they've released and re-released ad nauseum for years. In other words, they are sure fire bets from the past that they hope will continue to do well. They are known quantities and is something they can somewhat accurately predict a return on.

It seems unlikely that WB has any interest in visiting Greed in anything resembling the near future. It's not just the year over year promises of this and other long sought titles that we're upset about, but that when it does finally arrive in its in the absolute worst marketplace for a silent film (iTunes? Really?) with no announcement of any kind. HerrS is right in that it seems they are just trying to keep churning out something, with as little overhead as possible to bring in whatever measly "revenue" they can. Further, if they do end up releasing Greed, it will the first time they ever put something that was previously unavailable on DVD, on iTunes first before issuing a deluxe set. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I highly doubt, Greed is going to be the one to break that stretch.

The big studios do know how to handle niche product. Fox Classics (RIP) had two home run smashes with Ford At Fox and Murnau/Borzage. They were big undertakings, with big prices but the market for those titles understood, and awarded Fox by buying the boxes and raving about them. Criterion themselves have had success with big, expensive, arthouse box sets and there is a reason they can afford to drop a 25-disc Kurosawa set without batting an eye. Universal and Sony are both dipping into their back catalogs this year, even in a recession. Greed, already produced and pretty much ready to go, should be a no brainer. Instead, WB keeps testing the market with elaborate box sets of classic titles people already have. I'm sure Casablanca looks gorgeous, but I have it in a great DVD transfer from a couple of years ago, and I don't really see the point in double dipping for Blu.

If Warner doesn't want to release Greed, especially after the masters and extras are more than likely just sitting on a shelf, it's a crime. There are countless third party DVD companies who would love to take the project where it needs to go and give this film (and countless others) the attention they deserve. At the very least, if they won't be paying attention to the titles gathering dust on their shelves, they should let someone else have a shot, at bringing it to the people who want it.

[Felix]

Golly, I think WB have temporarily ejected Coppola from the top of the "Why won't you give us the fucking movie" shitlist.

Maybe we'll get both on the format after BluRay.

[Sloper]

But WB putting GREED on iTunes a few months after the response detailed above is not an admission that they've thrown in the towel on a more attractive GREED release down the line.

Just a small point, but I'm actually less depressed than I would have been had they dumped this in the overpriced Archive series, as that would surely have been a confirmation that there definitely would not be a decent release in the foreseeable future. The iTunes version is cheap enough that they could still pull their finger out and do the film justice a year from now without (further) insulting the fans.

Funny, though, how history is repeating itself with this poor film - all these years later and it's still getting shat on. Maybe after punching Stroheim (for insulting his mother), Louis B. Mayer gave him the evil eye and hissed out whatever the Romany term for 'inadequate home video representation' is.

[swo17]

If I'm your boss at Sony, and I, for years, keep promising you something you want or need that other employees at other companies get, and I promise it to you within a ten month span of time, which comes and goes, then promise it to you again, and the allotted time comes and goes, then I go silent on the subject for years without making myself available for questions any longer... then these years after the fact and without a word I give you some cheap subsitute

Maybe it's just a case of WB being too polite, y'know, like when your friend asks if you want to go to some concert, and you don't, but you don't want to hurt their feelings, so you say maybe, you'll think about it, and then they keep bringing it up and you try to change the subject but never flat out say no, and then one day they announce they've actually bought you a ticket to go to their stupid concert, so you can go together and won't that be grand, and you nervously say yes and nod, but that night you have to pack all your things and move to another city, and when you get there send a text message saying "sry, cant be frnz ne more." Maybe it's kind of like that.

[perkizitore]

It's out of the question releasing it as a Warners Archive Disc, it has a proper restoration and it's an important title. Maybe they think it's not important to spend their workforce for such little earnings, while they can keep them occupied with Wizard Of Oz, Casablanca, Gone with the Wind and Ben Hur forever!

[HerrSchreck]

Maybe it's just a case of WB being too polite, y'know, like when your friend asks if you want to go to some concert, and you don't, but you don't want to hurt their feelings, so you say maybe, you'll think about it, and then they keep bringing it up and you try to change the subject but never flat out say no, and then one day they announce they've actually bought you a ticket to go to their stupid concert, so you can go together and won't that be grand, and you nervously say yes and nod, but that night you have to pack all your things and move to another city, and when you get there send a text message saying "sry, cant be frnz ne more." Maybe it's kind of like that.

Swo, meet Pruane. Cake and refreshments inna fridge.

[so lightly here]

Maybe it's just a case of WB being too polite, y'know, like when your friend asks if you want to go to some concert, and you don't, but you don't want to hurt their feelings, so you say maybe, you'll think about it, and then they keep bringing it up and you try to change the subject but never flat out say no, and then one day they announce they've actually bought you a ticket to go to their stupid concert, so you can go together and won't that be grand, and you nervously say yes and nod, but that night you have to pack all your things and move to another city, and when you get there send a text message saying "sry, cant be frnz ne more." Maybe it's kind of like that.

Swo, meet Pruane. Cake and refreshments inna fridge.

I think Pruane may be just the spokesperson to approach WB with his little rant. I am not quite sure if he is old enough or has as much interest in silent film as he does for 50 cent, but he is so gosh darn cute with his chirpy little voice and braces I think he would have quite a positive effect in that big ol' WB boardroom if he gave them a Greed rant and said he was ready to spend big bucks on a Biu-Ray disc of Greed that he could watch using his new PlayStation 3.

[Perkins Cobb]

Whatever happened to that slacker who Youtubed himself holding up each and every one of his Criterion DVDs and hideously mispronouncing all the foreign titles? I vote for him as our ambassador to Feltenstein. "Ee-ritch Vone Straw-heem!"

[domino harvey]

Whatever happened to that slacker who Youtubed himself holding up each and every one of his Criterion DVDs and hideously mispronouncing all the foreign titles?

In an ideal world, "Lez Dames deh Whatever" would have caught on as an internet meme

[stereo]

I'm hoping for a 50 minute Blu-Ray cut of Greed scored by Carmine Coppola with commentary by Peter Bogdanovich; I'm sure FF must have archived one of these scores somewhere.

[Peacock]

I'm hoping for a 50 minute Blu-Ray cut of Greed scored by Carmine Coppola with commentary by Peter Bogdanovich; I'm sure FF must have archived one of these scores somewhere.

As long as it's 1:85:1 - i'm happy

[Ben Cheshire]

When it comes on whatever stable format, I hope its not just the restoration version. I bought that and only ever watched it once. Where can i get my hands on the 2-hour theatrical version. Its a movie; I wish I'd been able to appreciate it as one, instead of the stills constantly pointing out how broken and truncated it is, and screaming out "historical value only!" "Don't get involved!"

[Erikht]

Whatever happened to that slacker who Youtubed himself holding up each and every one of his Criterion DVDs and hideously mispronouncing all the foreign titles? I vote for him as our ambassador to Feltenstein. "Ee-ritch Vone Straw-heem!"

The way he pronounces "Dr. Mabuse" actually make some sense. He was rather abusive, wasn't he?