I demand a refund!

[Brian C]

A 1.37:1 image pillarboxed within a 2.39:1 print has more resolution than a 1.37:1 image windowboxed within a 1.85:1 print -- with the latter you lose both vertical and horizontal resolution, with the former you lose horizontal resolution but keep the full vertical resolution. Disney has also done this with some of their animated reissues.

Of course, you're right. I blame my multiplex projectionist training for not realizing this on my own. But at least I could frame the picture properly, I swear!

[MichaelB]

I only asked for a refund once. A local arthouse promised a screening of a print of Barry Lyndon only to substitute it at the very last minute (without telling anyone of course) with a DVD (they said later it was due to print damage). I found out when the lights went dark and then a "PLAY" icon came up on the screen before the WB logo. Sigh. I sat for about ten brutal minutes trying to endure a grotesquely pixellated picture before I walked out and got my money back.

I refused to do business with a particular distributor for years after he booked me a new print of a particular film (a big deal, since the film in question was an early Dolby Stereo title and had never been screened in that form in Britain before) and then sent me the crappy old mono one for the actual screening.

When I protested, he said that someone else was screening the new print on the same day, and was it really a particularly big deal? I said yes, because we'd not only specifically advertised the fact that it was a new print, but we'd stressed the sound improvements - and, more to the point, he had initially rung me to tell me about the new print and encourage me to book it. He said there was nothing he could do.

So we didn't book anything else from him for years, which must have cost him several thousand pounds.

[dad1153]

Back in January of 2000 or 2001 (I forget) the Astor Theater in NYC's Times Square (now the Nokia Theater) was showing a limited 70mm screening of Kubrick's "2001: A Speace Odyssey" for one week. I went on the last showing on the last day it was playing (Thursday) and there were only nine paying customers in the gigantic theater, which I'm sure was about the same number of employees working the place. 20 minutes into "2001" (when the PanAm plane comes into view) the screen goes black. Lights come up five minutes later and one of the employees (a pimpled teenager straight out of the closing credits of "The Critic" TV cartoon) tells us that they're trying to fix the projector but don't know how long it's going to take. We can leave with a refund or wait for the film to come back but there's no guarantee it will. One hour later (at 10PM for a screening with a starting time of 8:30PM) the same nine patrons (myself included) are still hanging around, talking about Kubrick movies and running races on the aisles of the huge empty theater. It's clear from the employees' body language that they wanted us to take them on their offer to leave but we didn't bite. At 10:30PM (two hours after it was supposed to start) the theater darkens and "2001" starts from the beginning with the scary-music-over-a-dark-screen Prologue. Maybe it was the anticipation of the wait or that it was 70mm print but damn, it was the best screening of "2001" I had until I bought the movie on HD-DVD a couple of years ago. Around 12:55AM, when the movie ends but the classic music continues for five minutes afterwards during a black screen, all nine of us watching remained seated even though the curtains had closed and the remaining employees (clearly pissed at being there past their normal hours) gestured for us to leave.

Best part? After watching "2001" in glorious 70mm the nine patrons (all clearly cinema buffs since we waited for two hours for the movie to start) as a group demanded, and got, our money back plus a ticket to see another movie for free. Flawless victory! =D>

Also 30 minutes into a packed screening of "The Simpsons Movie" the theater went dark and the crowd went nuts. No money back though, just a ticket to see another movie for free (plenty of angry poe'd folks at that one). During a theatrical screening of "The Siege" back when it came out the print literally melted in the projector and onto the screen, "Two-Lane Blacktop" style. But after a five minute wait the movie resumes on the next reel point and, despite pleads from the peanut gallery, no refund. The best was a David Cronenberg retrospective at the Anthology Film Archives theater during a screening of "Shivers." Midway through the movie they accidentally switch to the next-to-last reel (when the movie's nuttiness hits its prime) and then back to the still-unfolding narrative. Then we get the skipped-over reel next-to-last and then the ending. Afterwards nobody in the packed house (myself included) asks for a refund and some actually complement the projectionist for improving "Shivers" by showing it out of order. Now that's my kind of crowd! O:)

[zedz]

Since this has evolved to include situations when you should have got a refund, I've got a good one.

A small, old suburban cinema, which would normally have just been showing recent commercial hits several months after their release, had an inspired brainfart on the fiftieth anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima and scheduled a one-off screening of Shindo's Children of Hiroshima. To this day, I have no idea where they got ahold of the 35mm print: it's never resurfaced.

There was only a tiny audience (about four people), and then, ten minutes from the end, the film jams in the projector. I'd seen film burn up before, so I bolted for the projection booth (accessible from the auditorium) to alert the projectionist.

No projectionist. I watch the frame bubble and burn out, switch off the projector and go downstairs to find the projectionist or manager. Nobody. I call out behind the candy counter, open up the office, check out everywhere, but to no avail. I figure maybe they've stepped outside for a smoke, so I head for the front door. It's locked.

I go back up to the auditorium and tell the other blinking punters that the film has burnt up in the projector but that I can't find anybody. I go back downstairs, still nobody. There's a side door unlocked, so the other people amble down and go out that way. I wait around another ten minutes or so, the manager comes back with his fish and chip lunch, unlocks the front door and is surprised to hear what has happened, has no idea where the projectionist might be and apologises that he won't be able to finish the screening and that the film won't be rescheduled. No offer of a refund, and I must admit I didn't even think to ask, the whole experience was so surreal.

[HerrSchreck]

It's definitely true that theater managers are pretty liberal with refunds-- or at the very least rainchecks. I've gone in late--LATE!.. as in My Fault-- to see a film or two and been so unhappy with the seating I had to default to in a packed house (one time splitting me up w my date) that I walked out and got a refund for another showing. Aside from interludes of clearly showing up late I've had times when I arrived a good half hour before showtime only to find the line going round the block, and being among the final few let into the theater... and been so repulsed by the seats that remained, a raincheck was graciously provided.

[Brian C]

It's definitely true that theater managers are pretty liberal with refunds-- or at the very least rainchecks. I've gone in late--LATE!.. as in My Fault-- to see a film or two and been so unhappy with the seating I had to default to in a packed house (one time splitting me up w my date) that I walked out and got a refund for another showing. Aside from interludes of clearly showing up late I've had times when I arrived a good half hour before showtime only to find the line going round the block, and being among the final few let into the theater... and been so repulsed by the seats that remained, a raincheck was graciously provided.

As a former theater manager, I would say that this is just plain old customer service. If you stayed through the movie and then complained afterwards that you were late, that's pushing it (though you'd probably get taken care of anyway), but if you simply walk in and walk out I don't see why you wouldn't get a raincheck.

Point to keep in mind is that the theaters (or at least, US multiplexes) make relatively little money on ticket sales. It's all about the concessions for them. Rainchecks are basically a no-cost measure for them to take to resolve customer complaints; there's no sense in being stingy with them.

[tenia]

It's definitely true that theater managers are pretty liberal with refunds-- or at the very least rainchecks. I've gone in late--LATE!.. as in My Fault-- to see a film or two and been so unhappy with the seating I had to default to in a packed house (one time splitting me up w my date) that I walked out and got a refund for another showing. Aside from interludes of clearly showing up late I've had times when I arrived a good half hour before showtime only to find the line going round the block, and being among the final few let into the theater... and been so repulsed by the seats that remained, a raincheck was graciously provided.

As a former theater manager, I would say that this is just plain old customer service. If you stayed through the movie and then complained afterwards that you were late, that's pushing it (though you'd probably get taken care of anyway), but if you simply walk in and walk out I don't see why you wouldn't get a raincheck.

Point to keep in mind is that the theaters (or at least, US multiplexes) make relatively little money on ticket sales. It's all about the concessions for them. Rainchecks are basically a no-cost measure for them to take to resolve customer complaints; there's no sense in being stingy with them.

That's kind of unbelievable for me.

It means that you've got unusable seats, seats that are clearly put there to be empty, as anyone that would be compelled to seat on it prefer to walk out than bear the movie from this position. Either your theater sucked, or the viewers were clearly picky. It's a seat, if it's there, you can watch the movie from here !

Plus, honestly, I went to plenty of screenings that wasn't perfect (as I said before), that didn't keep me from going to these theaters again. Having troubles is occasional. A lot of people here talked about the unhappy guy that goes and tell everyone not to go again. That means that bad screenungs happens all the time, cause you can go once in theaters without taking the risk of having a bad screening. It's not normal. From my point of view, it clearly became an easy abuse, from the viewers and the theaters.

'That wasn't perfect ? Here, take this. It's easier than making sure that ou screenings are perfect most of the time'.

- 'I went late, it's my fault, but I want my money back cause the last seat sucks !'
- 'I know, these seats suck, we should take them away, but here a raincheck, it's easier for us'.

'The movie sucked ? I want my money back, instead of reading the critics before picking this movie'.

Sounds more like easy bribery. Bless the USA for giving the opportunity not to pay any screening no more (cause you will ALWAYS find something to complain about).

[HerrSchreck]

Bless the USA for giving the opportunity not to pay any screening no more (cause you will ALWAYS find something to complain about).

Yep... that's what any normal person would construe from the above.

Back here on planet earth, the point that the theater manager met me halfway on-- (not a refund by the way, but a flexibility in my ticket to see another viewing time)-- is:

One can show up during the coming attractions (what I mean by 'late'... I'll never go into a movie that's already started rolling) and still find perfectly acceptable seats... and one can show up at the same time and find a packed house and be jammed into the extreme corners and be forced to watch the film in something like the first seat in the first row, and go blind from the close proximity, a bad neck from craning your head up and at a 75 degree left-right angle to the screen.

I'm picky when it comes to watching movies and have limits to how far to the side, forward, or back I'm willing to watch a film I really want to see. I am close to anal about that. Most of the time I buy tickets in advance and get on line with enough time to be within the first ten into the theater... but every once and awhile things happen, your day conspires to make you almost last on line or almost late... trains delayed... traffic... a waiter at pre-dinner moving at 1mph. And because some people are good folk who say those four magic words-- No problem, I understand-- the situation is handled amicably by mature folks with mutual goodwill (as opposed to, say, being subjected to a condemnation of the whole United States of America, and a turning of the rare exception into the rule.)

[tenia]

)and one can show up at the same time and find a packed house and be jammed into the extreme corners and be forced to watch the film in something like the first seat in the first row, and go blind from the close proximity, a bad neck from craning your head up and at a 75 degree left-right angle to the screen.)

Fact is : why these seats exists if they're just ruining the screening ?


But, as I said, from my experience, when the sound goes down for 20 seconds in Hancock, it shouldn't be such a trouble. 20 seconds !
Here, people from the theater were already outside, waiting to give us free admissions, as we would automatically tell the whole USA to boycott the theater at the end of the screening just because of that.

I don't condemn anything or anybody, it's logical to use any possible trick to save money. But in this case, I just find the whole thing kind of exagerated.

[Brian C]

Fact is : why these seats exists if they're just ruining the screening ?

But, as I said, from my experience, when the sound goes down for 20 seconds in Hancock, it shouldn't be such a trouble. 20 seconds !
Here, people from the theater were already outside, waiting to give us free admissions, as we would automatically tell the whole USA to boycott the theater at the end of the screening just because of that.

I don't condemn anything or anybody, it's logical to use any possible trick to save money. But in this case, I just find the whole thing kind of exagerated.

Well, I guess there's two ways to go at this.

First, there are inevitably a number of seats that are worse than other seats. Some people like them, but most people don't. Most people wouldn't buy the tickets in the first place if they knew they'd be in those seats. So you sell the seats, and some people will stay and some people won't, but you still end up better off than if the seats weren't there at all.

Secondly, some business establishments actually care about making their customers happy, especially when it's easy for them to do so, as opposed to telling them to sit there and eat their peas. It's crazy, I know, but that's just how it works here.

[tenia]

Fact is : why these seats exists if they're just ruining the screening ?

But, as I said, from my experience, when the sound goes down for 20 seconds in Hancock, it shouldn't be such a trouble. 20 seconds !
Here, people from the theater were already outside, waiting to give us free admissions, as we would automatically tell the whole USA to boycott the theater at the end of the screening just because of that.

I don't condemn anything or anybody, it's logical to use any possible trick to save money. But in this case, I just find the whole thing kind of exagerated.

Well, I guess there's two ways to go at this.

First, there are inevitably a number of seats that are worse than other seats. Some people like them, but most people don't. Most people wouldn't buy the tickets in the first place if they knew they'd be in those seats. So you sell the seats, and some people will stay and some people won't, but you still end up better off than if the seats weren't there at all.

Here it sounds more than clearly unusable seats 'Oh boy, I prefer to go away than seating here' than just seats worst than others like 'Oh well, it's not gonna be perfect but whatever'.

Secondly, some business establishments actually care about making their customers happy, especially when it's easy for them to do so, as opposed to telling them to sit there and eat their peas. It's crazy, I know, but that's just how it works here.

It's not being friendly with customers, it's just being afraid of them.

[domino harvey]

Since this has evolved to include situations when you should have got a refund, I've got a good one.

A small, old suburban cinema, which would normally have just been showing recent commercial hits several months after their release, had an inspired brainfart on the fiftieth anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima and scheduled a one-off screening of Shindo's Children of Hiroshima. To this day, I have no idea where they got ahold of the 35mm print: it's never resurfaced.

There was only a tiny audience (about four people), and then, ten minutes from the end, the film jams in the projector. I'd seen film burn up before, so I bolted for the projection booth (accessible from the auditorium) to alert the projectionist.

No projectionist. I watch the frame bubble and burn out, switch off the projector and go downstairs to find the projectionist or manager. Nobody. I call out behind the candy counter, open up the office, check out everywhere, but to no avail. I figure maybe they've stepped outside for a smoke, so I head for the front door. It's locked.

I go back up to the auditorium and tell the other blinking punters that the film has burnt up in the projector but that I can't find anybody. I go back downstairs, still nobody. There's a side door unlocked, so the other people amble down and go out that way. I wait around another ten minutes or so, the manager comes back with his fish and chip lunch, unlocks the front door and is surprised to hear what has happened, has no idea where the projectionist might be and apologises that he won't be able to finish the screening and that the film won't be rescheduled. No offer of a refund, and I must admit I didn't even think to ask, the whole experience was so surreal.

I'm loving picturing zedz as this Clark Kent type sitting down to enjoy a nice movie and then having to rush off to the projection room at a moment's notice to save the day

[MichaelB]

It's not being friendly with customers, it's just being afraid of them.

And you know this how, exactly?

When I was in cinema management, I made a point of being friendly to my customers, especially the regulars, not because I was afraid of them but because I was acutely aware that their enthusiasm for what we were showing was literally keeping me in a job. (The cinema in question was totally independent and 100% funded by the box office). And being friendly costs nothing - an important consideration when you're operating on a budget rather thinner than the average shoestring and you've already had to skimp on quite a few other mod cons that were considered standard in many other venues.

[tenia]

It's not being friendly with customers, it's just being afraid of them.

And you know this how, exactly?

When I was in cinema management, I made a point of being friendly to my customers, especially the regulars, not because I was afraid of them but because I was acutely aware that their enthusiasm for what we were showing was literally keeping me in a job. (The cinema in question was totally independent and 100% funded by the box office). And being friendly costs nothing - an important consideration when you're operating on a budget rather thinner than the average shoestring and you've already had to skimp on quite a few other mod cons that were considered standard in many other venues.

People just have to ask for having a refund, and they have it.

They will always find something to complain about.

Instead of telling them 'You should have read the reviews' after they want their money back, you give them a refund.
They found the language crude ? It's written on the poster ! But you give a refund anyway.

If they were good customers, there would be some understanding with you, and they would tell you to keep your money. There would be a trust that you did the best you could, but, hey ! shit happens.

When the customer asks for a refund or something like that, is it always for a real problem during the screening ? Does the reason ruined his whole screening at a point he considers not having entirely being able to enjoy going at your theater ?

Moreover: if you, kindly but firmly, explained to him that, no, you can't give him a refund cause the problem is nothing really important, will the guy just hate you and your theater for the rest of his life, and if he would go and tell all his friends and family to do the same ?

That's my point. That's the impression all the previous posts give me.

In Europe, we go to movies, and we have plenty of shit happening during the screenings.
But still, we don't need refunds, and we still go to the theaters where we sometimes have problems with sound, cropping or out-of-focus.

What is the difference between Europeans and Americans ?

For me, it's juste that they can have a refund, based on a fear to lose customers. So you give them. Simply.
Or are we just too stupid to take advantage of theaters-runners that would so easily give refunds ?

[HerrSchreck]

O my goodness.

[fiddlesticks]

I saw Ponyo in a budget theatre the other day. There were a few problems with the focus, and for about 10 minutes the sound was partly obscured by what sounded like an overactive HVAC unit.

But I didn't ask for, or receive, a refund.

Since all Americans (including British ones like MichaelB) can always find some reason to ask for a refund, and always get it, while all Europeans always routinely and cheerfully put up with any problems they encounter, I am now forced to question my cultural identity.

[zedz]

Moreover: if you, kindly but firmly, explained to him that, no, you can't give him a refund cause the problem is nothing really important, will the guy just hate you and your theater for the rest of his life, and if he would go and tell all his friends and family to do the same?

In many cases, yes. Have you ever worked in retail or a customer service industry? There are a lot of crazy, unreasonable and vengeful consumers out there. I can see your point about not pandering to the outrageous demands of the apeshit crazy, but in the real world it's often the path of least resistance, particularly when it costs you next to nothing.

[Lemmy Caution]

OMG, cultural differences.
Not sure what the big deal is.

I think I'd usually be too timid to ask for a refund.
I often feel guilty returning a defective DVd.

BUT one time I was in a mall and a guy came up and offered us two free tickets to a test screening for the following weekend. We needed to call and confirm the day before, bring the original sign-up paper we were given, and after the screening we would be asked to fill out a questionnaire.

So we confirmed and got there around the appointed time. There's a crowd of about 50+ people waiting to get in. They let in 20 or so, while another 20 or so come in line behind us. Then they tell us that there are no more seats, that we came too late, to shove off.

About half the people in line leave, but the rest start agitating. I ascertain that the guy telling us to leave works for the promo company, so I demand to talk to someone from the theater. I figure that they should be aware that the company running the screening at their theater was jerking around their customers (and I was a little miffed that I had driven there in the snow). I also had a strong suspicion that they intentionally overbooked, figuring there would be a certain percentage of no-shows, and that they want a full theater.

After a little while a group of about 20 of us are allowed into the lobby, and after a few minutes are offered free entry to any of the other films about to start. Half take that option, but the other movie choices were mainstream dreck, so a dozen or so held out for free passes, which we received soon enough.

As it happens, I was with a friend of mine from China, who had been in the USofA for all of 2 weeks. She was amazed that a group of nobody customers could mount an ad-hoc protest and get the theater management to cave in so easily. In China, some ballsy people would engage in a protracted argument, there'd be lots of loud venting and bad feelings, and then everyone would walk away exhausted and empty-handed. The whole process from being turned away at the door to getting free passes took about 15 minutes. My friend had wanted to leave right away as we were told to, expecting that we'd get nothing but a hassle, and even worried that the police might arrive.

Different cultures.
Still unsure why anyone would get all ruffled by a system which favors the customer.

[Mr Sausage]

In Europe, we go to movies, and we have plenty of shit happening during the screenings.
But still, we don't need refunds, and we still go to the theaters where we sometimes have problems with sound, cropping or out-of-focus.

Haha! Seriously? The people in your country riot whenever the government or any other institution, including Universities, implements a change, no matter how insignificant. What business do you have complaining about people in America demanding refunds? At least no one's car gets torched.

[Antoine Doinel]

I demand a refund for reading this far into the thread.

[Camera Obscura]

As a European, I don't need refunds. I'll just torch the place.

If they were good customers, there would be some understanding with you, and they would tell you to keep your money. There would be a trust that you did the best you could, but, hey ! shit happens.

Even when shit happens?

Are you a communist?

[tenia]

Different cultures.
Still unsure why anyone would get all ruffled by a system which favors the customer.

I know I'm using a lot of generalization, but the fact is : the doesn't seem to favors the customer, but it's the customer that take advantage of it.
I prefer largely contributing to help the guy keeping his theater alive than asking my money back for some negligeable reason.

As a European, I don't need refunds. I'll just torch the place.

Only when a governmental reform is at stake.

If they were good customers, there would be some understanding with you, and they would tell you to keep your money. There would be a trust that you did the best you could, but, hey ! shit happens.

Even when shit happens?

Are you a communist?

Since I prefer to give my money in order to naively "keep the industry alive", I don't think so.

[MichaelB]

I think we're in danger of ignoring the many, many nuances that have already been hinted at even in this thread.

It's worth noting, for instance, that all three occasions that I asked for a refund involved screenings of new films (or a new-print revival) in upmarket cinemas in London's West End. They were expensive tickets, and I had every right to expect a technically flawless presentation for my money. Clearly, this doesn't mean that I'm going to demand a refund every time there's a scratch on the print, but if there were severe problems that drastically affect my appreciation of the film, I'm certainly going to speak up. Otherwise, who's going to keep these places on their toes? And what's the point of "keeping the industry alive" if it doesn't give a damn about doing things properly?

On the other hand, I wouldn't have dreamed of asking for a refund for a less than wonderful presentation at, say, the late lamented Scala Cinema, because they charged an absolute pittance for wonderful triple bills like Thundercrack!, Glen or Glenda and Doris Wishman's sex-change doc Let Me Die A Woman. Prints and presentation were often terrible, but in many ways that was part of the fun.

The cinema I managed had slightly higher presentation standards than the Scala, but was otherwise far closer to that group - which meant that refund requests were relatively few, and that I had the time to treat them sympathetically when they happened. And why shouldn't I have done? Tenia seems to think that it's all to do with fear, which is absolute rubbish - it's to do with respect.

[Camera Obscura]

If they were good customers, there would be some understanding with you, and they would tell you to keep your money. There would be a trust that you did the best you could, but, hey ! shit happens.

Even when shit happens?

Are you a communist?

Since I prefer to give my money in order to naively "keep the industry alive", I don't think so.

"keeping the industry alive"? From what day and age are you?

You're projecting an entire world view on something as plain and simple as refunds in theaters, and, as many have pointed out already, we're talking basic customer relations here, not keeping an entire sector of the economy alive.

And from a business point of view, the time arguing with that one idiot a day who wants a refund no matter how unjust it may seem, will cost you far more than refunding them their lousy 10 dollars. It's simple math and everyone who ever worked in a business or service orientated environment knows this and will operate this way. If not, they'll lose customers, lose money, which is bad for business, bad for "the industry", bad for all of us. In America, In France, in the Netherlands. Anywhere.

But you certainly would make my ideal customer, not my ideal employee, though.

[MichaelB]

The British cinema industry nearly collapsed in the mid-1980s - admissions in 1984 were 54 million tickets, down from 1.4 billion forty years earlier. Obviously, there were some pretty fundamental reasons for such a precipitous decline - television, for one - but a significant part of the problem was that cinemas were horribly poky boxes, often poorly converted into a two or three screener from a larger original (sound leakage between screens was a constant annoyance), and cinema managers and staff generally seemed to regard the whole thing as an annoying chore.

Being British, their customers rarely complained - they just stopped going.

And audiences only started returning when cinemas belatedly realised that things had to improve, from basic presentation standards through to decent customer service. As a result, box office admissions have trebled since 1984's low point.