486 Homicide

[knives]

While I haven't gotten to see it yet, Spartan is considered B grade Mamet by most.

Not here it isn't. If memory serves, it's one of his most popular films on the forum, and rightly so. He seems to get better with every film, a total master of the conservative method of classical Hollywood filmmaking. Both Spartan and Redbelt figure prominently on my 00s List Project list

I've gotten that hint, that's why I said most. Outside this board actually I've only seen it shit on, even though it does look very interesting.

[Peckinbauch]

How does it compare to Homicide? I realize I may be beating a dead horse here, but I'm just trying to find out the most agreed upon critical scale of his work.

Like, for instance, "magnum opus" Mamet versus "B Grade" Mamet.

[The Elegant Dandy Fop]

Instead of beating the dead horse, just watch it instead and tell us what you think. Healthy discussions about Mamet's work can arise from your opinion.

Personally, Homicide might be my favorite as it features the best of his time. The quick and almost rapid paced dialog from Spped-The-Plow and Glengarry Glen Ross period is all over his work. It features a story about loss of cultural identity wrapped in a police thriller. And it works. The dialog is extra Mamety in this one and it's worth it for the excellent performances. And Ricky Jay is in this. He's great in everything.

Domino hit it on the head with the classic Hollywood conservatism comparison. He even mentions it in Bambi vs Godzilla. His scripts and plays are bare aside from simple stage directions and dialog. Keeping things to a bare minimum and making it work is his style. Even in a film like Spartan with lots of action scenes, it's surprisingly subdued compared to most Hollywood fare.

Glengary Glen Ross is a great way to start with his films. House of Games is also an excellent choice. I actually started with Spartan (after seeing everyone on this forum going nuts over it) and loved it tremendously.

I might be a bit biased as I'm a tremendous fan of his work though.

[Highway 61]

I've gotten that hint, that's why I said most. Outside this board actually I've only seen it shit on, even though it does look very interesting.

Really? I could have sworn that the consensus on Spartan was that even Mamet's staunchest detractors conceded it was a good film. I don't even mean on the board either. I remember following the reviews on this meticulously because at the time of it's release, I was writing a pretty substantial essay on Mamet, and I distinctly remember how many critics noted their usual antipathy to Mamet, but found themselves surprisingly enjoying Spartan.

Personally, I think it's his very best film, if only for the suspense and entertainment value: even after many viewings, it remains riveting. But also I admire it because I read it as such a bleak film, which, if I remember the board's discussion of Mamet's work during Redbelt's theatrical run, is very much counter to general opinion.

[oldsheperd]

I watched most of Homicide this past weekend. While it started out good it just kind of started to sputter. I think it has to do a lot with the fact that I'm not really all that familiar with the Self-Loathing Jew. I haven't met many Jewish people so my concepts of Judaism are informed by the Liberal-Jew Media and David Cross.

[Sloper]

'Most of'? You really should see it to the end (it's only 90 minutes, as I remember) - you may or may not find that the ending resolves your issues with the film, but it's impossible to evaluate the story without taking it into account.

And as someone who knows next to nothing about Judaism myself, I'd say this isn't at all a film about religion. If nothing else, the ending shows that it's about identity in a much more profound sense.

And I think what you call 'sputtering' is what I would call 'the part where it gets interesting'.

And for the last time, in the name of almighty Yahweh, please change that avatar!

[oldsheperd]

I'm not referring to religion so I guess I should have used Jewish instead of Judaism. What I was referring to was the Jewsih culture.

[knives]

Really? I could have sworn that the consensus on Spartan was that even Mamet's staunchest detractors conceded it was a good film. I don't even mean on the board either. I remember following the reviews on this meticulously because at the time of it's release, I was writing a pretty substantial essay on Mamet, and I distinctly remember how many critics noted their usual antipathy to Mamet, but found themselves surprisingly enjoying Spartan.

Personally, I think it's his very best film, if only for the suspense and entertainment value: even after many viewings, it remains riveting. But also I admire it because I read it as such a bleak film, which, if I remember the board's discussion of Mamet's work during Redbelt's theatrical run, is very much counter to general opinion.

I'm shocked to, but I've seen some vitriol directed at Spartan for some odd reason. But looking at RT maybe I'm just seeing a large minority.

[denti alligator]

About the ending:

Spoiler

So it was all a con to get Gold to bomb the neo-Nazi shop? To get the "list" (which he never gets)? This 'twist' just didn't sit right with me.

[Galen Young]

Spoiler

So it was all a con to get Gold to bomb the neo-Nazi shop? To get the "list" (which he never gets)? This 'twist' just didn't sit right with me.

Spoiler

I never felt this was a "con" kind of film, at least in the usual Mamet sense. I took it that "his people" put him so far out on a limb as to testing his commitment to his identity (Jewish or cop?) that he loses himself, with the final irony being he gets the cold shoulder from his formerly close cop colleagues.

If there was anything left unresolved, I'd say it was the "evidence" the underground group had linking him to the bombing -- will they go all the way and turn one of "their own" into the authorities to prove how far they are willing to go to achieve their ends? Hard to gauge from the ending, but I'd guess that things were only going to get worse for Gold after the film ends.

[Sloper]

Spoiler

It's been a while since I saw it so I can't remember all the details, but the 'Grofaz' thing is just a red herring - that's the point, Gold's been reading too much into the situation because he wants to, just as he has overestimated both his willingness and ability to get involved in the fanatical activities of 'his people'. They're willing to use him to get what they want and then betray him if necessary; the cops, or at least most of them, also exclude him, first because he's Jewish then because he's screwed up; and he's left at the end with only a meaningless scrap of paper to explain how he got here. Then the blackness swallows him up as the door closes in the final shot (if I remember rightly) - he has no identity, no stable sense of self, nothing.

There is no conspiracy, unlike in House of Games - the twist doesn't reveal some grand con, but rather exposes the existential annihilation of the protagonist. I was never quite sure why it was called Homicide, but perhaps this is why. It's almost, I think, the last word in the film, and it leaves you with an image of a man who has been destroyed.

Edit: I keep posting in this thread and forgetting to mention how good Alaric Jans' music is, and it just occurred to me that the film's main theme sounds like a funeral march, quite unlike what you would expect in a film of this genre. Someone I showed it to ages ago actually complained that the pace of the story was 'funereal', and that's exactly right - the music is 'processing' Bobby Gold towards his inevitable (but metaphorical) death.

The film is very open to accusations of pretentiousness (as is what I've just been saying) but I find this attempt at profundity really makes it a much more satisfying film than the other Mamets I've seen.

[Doctor Sunshine]

Spoiler

I read it the same way Sloper did. Further, the group didn't set out to con him but had no qualms about blackmailing him when the opportunity presented itself. I image after the film ends they would indeed make good on their threats, he'd stand by his duty as good police--look at me, I'm using The Wire lingo!--despite being ostracized and things would generally continue their downward spiral for him from there. Hence the tragedy element Mamet mentions in the commentary.

[domino harvey]

I think it was zedz who said he likes having an unseen film by his favorite director waiting in the wings for a special treat, and tonite I cashed in my chit for Homicide, my last remaining unseen Mamet film. Before anything else, I just have to say

Spoiler

I can not believe that Mamet conned me again. I can not believe that despite having seen all of his films, I didn't see the blackmail scheme coming. Someone in this thread called it a crime of opportunity for the conspirators, but it struck me as far more biting as an intentional manipulation of a Jew via their very Judaism (however latent) by other Jews, particularly if the whole ordeal was orchestrated in whole. The diner Polaroid reveal is thus perhaps the most cynical single moment in Mamet's oeuvre-- that intangible thing that was always missing, it doesn't even exist. Now what is there left? Now what was ever there? How fitting that Mantegna subsequently kills Rhames with a more powerful weapon than his absent gun. A bleakly hopeless, wonderful film.

Also, new Mamet line to add to the repertoire: "Yeah I'm mad at you. I'm not gonna invite you to my birthday party." =D>

[domino harvey]

Interesting essay on Mamet's use of conspiracies in the film

[Howard Roark]

Spoiler

but the 'Grofaz' thing is just a red herring - that's the point

Spoiler

So was it just a coincidence that he found the Grofaz paper on the roof? Or was it planted by the 212 people? I'm guessing it was just a coincidence. I think it would have been quite a stretch for them to believe Gold would have randomly found it in the pitch black like that.

[Grand Illusion]

Watched this recently and quite enjoyed it.

Spoiler

What I liked about it most was not the wordplay or the twists or the urban milieu, but the psychology. For once, the con game was internalized. Gold finds this non sequitur "Grofaz" paper, and he takes off. As he goes on his hero's journey, he's constantly pressured to take sides. All the classical people he meets along the way change him slightly, but all towards the goal of making him choose a side. Jew or Cop?

But it's a false dilemma.

The cops don't even care about this Jewish cabal (except of course when Gold himself blows up a building). His crisis of identity inexorably leads to tragedy because his obsession with belonging, with being the collective victim, falls apart when a singular crime doesn't happen. That doesn't mean that persecution never occurs, only that he has staked his entire identity on a single incident. He's chosen sides. The Cabal over the Cops. Vigilantism over Order. And then the house of cards comes falling down.

[Galen Young]

Cool photo of Mamet's outline for Homicide.

[knives]

Random question which should be the least important thing to think about after watching this profound film, but does this have any relation to the television show?

[dwk]

No

[Noiradelic]

The TV show was based on David Simon's 1991 non-fiction book, Homicide: A Year On the Killing Streets. Most of the storylines in the first 2 (short) seasons came from the book.

[Kauno]

I remember liking the film a lot when it came out, but I still haven't bought the DVD yet. I think I recall some talk about upgrade, but could not find the right thread. Is there any chance for a Blu-Ray in near future?

[knives]

Though in a post-Last days of Disco world there are no rules it is highly unlikely they'll come out with a Blu anytime soon. The DVD anyway is very good and should more than suit any purpose.

[Mr Sausage]

A really excellent film. I'm not terribly familiar with Mamet (I've never read his plays, and I've only seen Heist and Glengarry Glenn Ross), but I enjoyed the speedy, artificial dialogue and the top-notch acting. The movie also hit a pet interest of mine: paranoia, conspiracy, and the problem of over-reading. That the conspiratorial aspects of the plot are on behalf of a fascinating study of cultural identity and not, in themselves, the point of the movie is its biggest triumph for me.

Anyway, the reason I popped in here was to ask about an odd moment: when Gold is in the apartment watching the various people give their condolences to the family, he observes one elderly man give a very long speech in German. Except when he asks the woman what's being said, she says it's in Hebrew and gives a translation whose accuracy I can't fully judge because I was having trouble hearing the German in the background. This can't be a mistake on behalf of the filmmakers, not only because it isn't remotely plausible, but because several other characters speak Hebrew later in the film.

Anyone know what the make of this? It puzzled my Dad and I. I don't doubt it's there to dislocate us as an audience and add one more layer of threat and intrigue, but I still wonder if something more specific was being communicated. Is there an internal reason why the woman didn't want Gold to know it was German, or why the man was speaking German in the first place?

[Moe Dickstein]

Mr. S, if you liked those, of course see House of Games, but also The Spanish Prisoner. Those to me are his two best (as a director/writer - Glengarry is James Foley)

[HypnoHelioStaticStasis]

Anyway, the reason I popped in here was to ask about an odd moment: when Gold is in the apartment watching the various people give their condolences to the family, he observes one elderly man give a very long speech in German. Except when he asks the woman what's being said, she says it's in Hebrew and gives a translation whose accuracy I can't fully judge because I was having trouble hearing the German in the background. This can't be a mistake on behalf of the filmmakers, not only because it isn't remotely plausible, but because several other characters speak Hebrew later in the film.

Anyone know what the make of this? It puzzled my Dad and I. I don't doubt it's there to dislocate us as an audience and add one more layer of threat and intrigue, but I still wonder if something more specific was being communicated. Is there an internal reason why the woman didn't want Gold to know it was German, or why the man was speaking German in the first place?

I haven't seen the film, but its very possible the man is speaking Yiddish, which is a German dialect but with roots in Eastern-European Jewish culture. I've often heard people refer to "Hebrew" as "Yiddish" and vice-versa, so maybe Mamet was copping to a common cultural mistake? Or maybe made one himself?