Blu-only Releases?

[RossyG]

(Just one pasing thought, for a left-leaning bunch, the forum, not the label, with your love of Chomsky and all the rest, you do seem to be pretty gung-ho for consumerism. But perhaps this is a different and more intelligent consumerism from the proles out there ...)

Nous sommes tous les enfants de Marx et de Coca-Cola. O:)

For me, I see Blu Ray as a complement to, rather than a replacement of, DVD.

When DVD appeared, I stopped buying VHS, threw most of my tape library away, and got everything on DVD without exception. That won't happen with BD as a lot of things I buy are SD anyway; most 60s-80s British TV, for example.

I'll be upgrading very few of my existing DVDs, but I love the chance of getting HD-suitable material in BD format. I hope to have a projector in the near future and BD will look significantly better on it. It'll be the closest I can get to having my own private arthouse cinema.

Britain's going HD, with people buying LCD TVs and getting BBC-HD among other TV stations. I wonder how many BD players Father Christmas will be bringing in a fortnight's time? There may be a recession, but they're only £130 and they'll be getting cheaper. And while I have no interest in James Cameron's Avatar, if it's the hit the studio are hoping for, it will help shift more units.

[Felix]

Just one pasing thought, for a left-leaning bunch, the forum, not the label, with your love of Chomsky and all the rest...

Not all "left-leaners" worship at the church of Chomsky, I can assure you.

Is The Killing Fields out on Blu yet? 1080p would be a fitting way of detailing the genocide Chomsky spent a shameful amount of time attempting to diminish and deny.

I'm delighted to hear it, and apologies, it was a bit rude of me... And yes, good suggestion, but get your hard hat on.

[Felix]

I'll be upgrading very few of my existing DVDs

,

Britain's going HD, with people buying LCD TVs and getting BBC-HD among other TV stations. I wonder how many BD players Father Christmas will be bringing in a fortnight's time? There may be a recession, but they're only £130 and they'll be getting cheaper. And while I have no interest in James Cameron's Avatar, if it's the hit the studio are hoping for, it will help shift more units.

[/quote]

Oh go on, please... (That was meant to go under your bit about not selling off your DVDs but I got the location worng. Bugger.)

Time will tell but I note that several DVD companies seem desperate to get us to go BD with their big sales, like BFI had a while back (I don't know if this is what Black Friday refers to, I did not read the whole thread) and I also noticed a while back that certain BD titles were cheaper than SD on Amazon Marketplace, making me wonder if they were not shifting (Wong Kar Wai was the one I was looking at, can't remember which). I agree that the players are getting cheaper but I am still not sure. I do not see the stores giving lots more space to BD for one thing, and I see no signs of lots of SDs in the second hand outlets. All very anecdotal of course.

And yes, I used to fantasise about my own mini-art house cinema but even in a big flat where the fuck would I put it, and at the expense of my books and my HiFi and yet another piece of hardware under the telly and having to switch over cables when I went from one medium to another (I am probably wrong here). I may get there but see the comment below.

My comment about the "recession" relates to what is coming, not what is here at the moment. Like I say, I am so hoping I am wrong.

I must be a son of Coke as I am probably the only Scotsman who prefers it to Irn-Bru (Mind you I must be the only Scotsman who isn't left leaning. I was but I leant so far I fell over...)

If Avatar takes off it will all be 3D and then we'll have a new format. Will be good for porn, so, done deal... (Fucking hell, Russ Meyer in 3D, need a big house for that...)

[colinr0380]

The economy of the UK is fucked, completely and utterly, even if many people in the media are trying to pretend it isn't...

Well, yes, there is that small matter! (though the economy was 'fucked' a long time before when the government put all its eggs in one basket and staked everything on London becoming the financial capital of the world while variously ignoring, dismantling, selling off and belittling the wider infrastructure of the rest of the country which the majority of the population depend on for day to day life and work. But everything was fine while the starry-eyed delusion of vast wealth, only in the hands of an important to cater to minority, was able to keep up the pretence of country wide prosperity. It is a situation that has been at least a couple of decades in the making)

But on a film-related note add to the Blu-ray upgrading the cost of the recent digital switchover (which has cost around £150 for sets for the various televisions around the house and that of my grandparents, especially when picking up the relatively rare aerial connecting boxes for some of the older TVs not equipped with Scart sockets). Then the eventual need to upgrade to HD to get the full potential out of the technology. It is extremely telling that with this uptick in technology that the manufacturers have gone out of their way to at least initially try and meet consumers one quarter of the way by allowing backwards compatability and adding other methods (similar price points to DVD and a 'transition' period from one format to another before ultimatums are given) - but that generosity could also be seen as hints of how deep the crisis really is that such measures are seen as appropriate.

(Just one pasing thought, for a left-leaning bunch, the forum, not the label, with your love of Chomsky and all the rest, you do seem to be pretty gung-ho for consumerism. But perhaps this is a different and more intelligent consumerism from the proles out there ...)

I agree with RossyG! It's all consumerism - that's all that's left (as power to change the world for better or worse, or to just affect the population's daily lives and standard of living remains restricted to the few with the ear of the media, or the access to the summit meetings...or anyone with the best heart-tugging story, from whatever political perspective)

For myself, I have kept my large VHS collection, some films of which I've upgraded and some I have not. Just as DVD will be the same. Especially with the high turnover of technology it is impossible to fully transition everything from one format to another as it is to expect everything to be fully available from one format to another. That's a perfect world scenario that sadly we don't live in - economics dictate access even in the 'developed' world.

[Felix]

The economy of the UK is fucked, completely and utterly, even if many people in the media are trying to pretend it isn't...

Well, yes, there is that small matter! It is a situation that has been at least a couple of decades in the making)
It is extremely telling that with this uptick in technology that the manufacturers have gone out of their way to at least initially try and meet consumers one quarter of the way by allowing backwards compatability and adding other methods (similar price points to DVD and a 'transition' period from one format to another before ultimatums are given) - but that generosity could also be seen as hints of how deep the crisis really is that such measures are seen as appropriate.

(I'll never get the hang of these quotes...) On the first point it is a lot longer than a couple of decades, we never adjusted to the aftermath of the war and continued to want to be seen as a big player at the big table. We still have not learnt... Jim Callaghan of all people tried to warn us of this in 1976 in his speech to the Labour Party Conference last time the IMF were waiting in the wings. I'm glad I am old, at least I have lived through what is coming once before. Folk under the age of 35 or so are in for a hell of shock. Fuck, I think I'll away and have some Bergman to cheer me up... (And as if I don't get enough of this on the Guardian and Telegraph sites...)

On the second point some companies always did this, my Linn Sondek turntable can be retrofitted with every improvement they have made to it since 1987 (and that retrofit goes back to 1977 or so).

And I don't think the creeps who use sites like the ones referred to would ever buy the discs they pirate anyway so I doubt there will be any increase in sales from that angle. But this conversation gives me an awful sense of deja-vu... deja-vu... deja-vu...

[MichaelB]

On the first point it is a lot longer than a couple of decades, we never adjusted to the aftermath of the war and continued to want to be seen as a big player at the big table. We still have not learnt... Jim Callaghan of all people tried to warn us of this in 1976 in his speech to the Labour Party Conference last time the IMF were waiting in the wings. I'm glad I am old, at least I have lived through what is coming once before. Folk under the age of 35 or so are in for a hell of shock.

Indeed. Much though I want to see the back of the present government, the prospect of smirking wideboy George Osborne in charge of the economy is not one to make the heart sing, not least because it's now beyond doubt that his stated "do nothing" policy had he been in charge a year ago would certainly have led to the collapse of at least one major high street bank, with incalculable consequences for millions.

I find it strangely fascinating talking to people born in the late 1970s or 1980s who've reached the conclusion that Thatcher wasn't all bad - those of us who actually lived through the 1980s wholly or partially as adults were rather less sanguine about the experience.

For myself, I have kept my large VHS collection, some films of which I've upgraded and some I have not. Just as DVD will be the same. Especially with the high turnover of technology it is impossible to fully transition everything from one format to another as it is to expect everything to be fully available from one format to another.

It's also not even desirable. As I've argued elsewhere, Blu-ray offers no real advantage over DVD when it comes to the overwhelming majority of pre-2000s television, with the sole exception of convenience in terms of being able to cram more episodes on one disc. OK, granted, higher bitrates might offer a minuscule improvement in terms of wringing every last detail out of SD video broadcast masters, but for this to be a deal-breaker you'd have to be anal to the point of chiding Viz's Mr Logic for lack of attention to detail.

[Felix]

Indeed. Much though I want to see the back of the present government, the prospect of smirking wideboy George Osborne in charge of the economy is not one to make the heart sing, not least because it's now beyond doubt that his stated "do nothing" policy had he been in charge a year ago would certainly have led to the collapse of at least one major high street bank, with incalculable consequences for millions.

I find it strangely fascinating talking to people born in the late 1970s or 1980s who've reached the conclusion that Thatcher wasn't all bad - those of us who actually lived through the 1980s wholly or partially as adults were rather less sanguine about the experience.

I drafted a long response to this Michael but I don't want this to drag further on into politics, that's not why I am here (ouch, it was me who started it wasn't it?). I did live through the 70s, all of them, on the shop floor, as a Marxist for much of them, but I voted for Thatcher in 79 (and Blair in 97 for similar reasons). It was not the way you seem to think it was. Nobody listened to Callaghan, well they did, for a wee while, but as soon as things looked a little better they reverted to type. Inflation is an ugly beast, I remember 30% wage rises which were worth almost nothing by the time the negotiations had ended (and think what inflation at those levels did to pensioners and thier life savings) and I think we maybe need an odious little shit like Osborne to do the very painful things that need to be done to stop us becoming Argentina. Darling had my respect until the PBR when he bottled it and danced to HMV's tune. (Still, he was IMG in his youth and they always bottled it...) But it will have to happen after the election regardless of who is elected. I would almost wish it on Labour were it not for the fact that they are now deep into Stasi Land and goodness knows what power five more years of technological advances will give them in that realm...

If you want the full story of incompetence on both sides of the industrial divide try Martin J Weiner's English Culture and the Decline of the Industrial Spirit 1850-1980 (honest, it ain't half as bad or half as long as the awful title would suggest). Hennessy, Sandbrook, or Kynaston for the post war years or, if you're really brave, Corelli Barnett. That is where it really went wrong, albeit with the best intent.

Damn, it's still a long response. You can have the last word if you want, I've said enough.

[Zot!]

There's a still a bunch of things we could only do DVD for. The plan is, if we can do BD for a particular title, we do BD only.

What does this mean for previous/current releases? Can we assume that the Pialats will remain DVD only for the foreseeable future?

[peerpee]

All our seven Pialat titles will remain DVD only.

[NilbogSavant]

All our seven Pialat titles will remain DVD only.

Sounds pretty definitive. Is this due to the low popularity of the titles or because Gaumont won't lease their HD transfers for BD yet? I can't remember if I've seen any yet. I own all the Pialat releases so far and would be more than willing to double-dip for them on BD.

[peerpee]

It's because we've spent a huge amount of time on them, they don't sell like ice cream on a hot day, and we have many more things lined up that we'd rather focus our attention on than revisiting these seven titles which we've only just finished. We have very limited resources and have to make hard decisions about what we're spending our months working on. Putting all these out on BD just doesn't stack up - even though we'd love to do it.

[NilbogSavant]

It's because we've spent a huge amount of time on them, they don't sell like ice cream on a hot day, and we have many more things lined up that we'd rather focus our attention on than revisiting these seven titles which we've only just finished. We have very limited resources and have to make hard decisions about what we're spending our months working on. Putting all these out on BD just doesn't stack up - even though we'd love to do it.

I assumed this was the case. Working on films that have never seen an English-friendly release or hasn't been available in its full integrity is always more appreciated than re-releasing older catalog films. However, if any catalog titles were bumped up to BD, I would be incredibly pleased if they were the Pialats.

[Zot!]

However, if any catalog titles were bumped up to BD, I would be incredibly pleased if they were the Pialats.

Seconded, but I also fully understand. Thanks for the definative and quick response peerpee. By the way I think an all Blu line-up is the way to go. Criterion threw the gauntlet down back in the day with the Laserdisc only releases, and that was a considerably more costly era. The people whining now about having do buy a cheapo blu-ray player don't realize how good they have it.

[peerpee]

Thanks Zot!

Things are changing fast. Criterion and the BFI have really pushed the boat out and been wonderfully brave with their Blu-ray releases. We're lucky that we're in a position where we can ditch dual releases for Blu-ray only (although we are doing dual for M and METROPOLIS). I think it will be a while before Criterion and the BFI can safely ditch DVD.

[TMDaines]

However, if any catalog titles were bumped up to BD, I would be incredibly pleased if they were the Pialats.

Seconded, but I also fully understand. Thanks for the definative and quick response peerpee. By the way I think an all Blu line-up is the way to go. Criterion threw the gauntlet down back in the day with the Laserdisc only releases, and that was a considerably more costly era. The people whining now about having do buy a cheapo blu-ray player don't realize how good they have it.

Blu-ray is just overkill and totally unnecessary for a lot of MoC's releases though - I'm saying this a someone who is Blu enabled. I like their new policy as I'd rather not pay £5 more for Blu if the source materials aren't going to make it worth it. Needless to say they are also cutting out a large part of their market if someone is only on Blu. They aren't if it is on DVD.

[Peacock]

Blu-ray is just overkill and totally unnecessary for a lot of MoC's releases though

Come on let's not exaggerate.
I think Criterion made the right decision releasing The War Trilogy on DVD-only due to the poor condition of the prints; but I hardly think the bulk of MoC's catalogue are of films in that condition.

You've had Blu as long as I, and you have to agree that if the price is going to end up the same, they may as well release Blu only for everything (unless it's in dire condition) because there is going to be a positive improvement if your working from a film master.

Full speed ahead Peerpee! I look forward to the increased number of titles released!

Also are you able to confirm yet if The Burmese Harp will be getting a Blu?

[TMDaines]

Blu-ray is just overkill and totally unnecessary for a lot of MoC's releases though

Come on let's not exaggerate.
I think Criterion made the right decision releasing The War Trilogy on DVD-only due to the poor condition of the prints; but I hardly think the bulk of MoC's catalogue are of films in that condition.

Sorry I was guility of focusing on the releases I own and want in my head when I typed that, but still. I'm not arguing that Blu wouldn't make an audio/visual upgrade on most of their releases, I just question quite how much. Maybe I'm wrong and the releases of M and City Girl will sway me but I'll see.

[Zot!]

I like their new policy as I'd rather not pay £5 more for Blu if the source materials aren't going to make it worth it.

Ha! Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I am officially old because I remember the lunatic fringe that was willing to pay $100+ for individual CC laserdiscs. I think we all owe these guys a debt of graditude, as they made possible what at that point was a real niche, and we now take for granted. So next time you complain about £5 extra for a movie, think about the dude who spent the cost of your player on each piece of media.

You're probably right though that a good DVD of certain movies is certainly acceptable. This is also a relatively new development, as in the infancy of DVDs, transfers were often poor ports of LDs. Even now studios are releasing garbage, like PAL-NTSC transfers. So the way I see it, whatever extra we might pay for a blu-ray is a vote for quality and progress, kind of like a Criterion LD was in its day. Your kids will thank you, or maybe they'll be too busy pirating a copy of The Hangover III.

[John Edmond]

I wonder how people would react to a company that returned to the $100+ per film model (say if MOC introduced a limited edition series). Say by enacting a narrative film version of the "Re:Voir" model: rare movies given great transfers and the solution to cost and lack of customers is to gouge (in a nice way) the few customers that do buy. Blu-ray of course.

[peerpee]

I could think of a number of exciting projects for that model. But someone with deep pockets has to pony up the money in the first place and a small team would have to work hard on it for a year just to be able to offer it to the 1,000 (?) people globally who'd bite. The problem then would be piracy, which would seriously devalue the limited edition originals, which would have to come with a ltd edition Taschen style book just to hold their value.

I do think the power of the internet, to pool interest and backers, could be tremendously important in the creation of such a project which would deliver a product so sexy and niche that it would never have a chance of being made normally.

[tenia]

Thanks Zot!

Things are changing fast. Criterion and the BFI have really pushed the boat out and been wonderfully brave with their Blu-ray releases. We're lucky that we're in a position where we can ditch dual releases for Blu-ray only (although we are doing dual for M and METROPOLIS). I think it will be a while before Criterion and the BFI can safely ditch DVD.

Well, I don't think that a BR of Make Way For Tomorrow is technically useful...
And when I look at their That Hamilton Woman DVD, I can't even imagine looking at it in HD on a 40"+ TV.
Or maybe all these scratches and glitches are better in HD, I don't know. :-k

The problem then would be piracy, which would seriously devalue the limited edition originals, which would have to come with a ltd edition Taschen style book just to hold their value.

Of course. The movie is the most important. People who are willing to pay $100 for the same movie they can have with the regular edition for $20, who are they ? Hardcore fans. The added-value has to be as important as the amount of stuff they want to learn about the movie itself.

It's like when you have a single-disc edition, a 2-dicer, and a 4-dicer + documentary + book + OST.
If you just want the movie, just get the movie. The more you like it, the more you are willing to pay, but the more stuff you need to get in order to justify the investment.
I don't think I'm learning anything new to anyone here.

But generally speaking, for regular editions like MoCs, I personally think that a simple 60 pages booklet is enough for a nice edition, or perhaps, some nice packaging like Wild Side has done lately with their Sin City or 36th Chamber of Shaolin HD release. They don't need to be materially huge. Value should not be counted as the amount of paper, cardboard or plastic used for the release but in the care put in the release. It's like the extras for some movies. Some try to fill the package with tons of useless bonuses, when others just know that quality is the best.

Plus, I don't remember the NIN material CDs going with a 600 pages book in order to justify the money spent, but they still managed to do a huuuuge amount of money, even if it was legally possible not to buy the material editions...

Anyway, I find Taschen books really cheap. In France, it's like 20€ for a decade book. It's just amazingly cheap.

[zedz]

I could think of a number of exciting projects for that model. But someone with deep pockets has to pony up the money in the first place and a small team would have to work hard on it for a year just to be able to offer it to the 1,000 (?) people globally who'd bite. The problem then would be piracy, which would seriously devalue the limited edition originals, which would have to come with a ltd edition Taschen style book just to hold their value.

I do think the power of the internet, to pool interest and backers, could be tremendously important in the creation of such a project which would deliver a product so sexy and niche that it would never have a chance of being made normally.

A similar model seems to be working in terms of music, with exorbitant online 'limited editions' preceding regular releases (Radiohead, Dylan, Byrne / Eno). Though the only ones of those I've been interested in are the ones with unique music - i.e. the core stuff, not the fancy trappings. And the standard release trailing behind changes the economics drastically. Then there are the huge deluxe mail-order things like Townshend's Lifehouse Chronicles, which are probably even closer to what Nick's thinking about.

I know there are a lot of unreleased films I'd pay through the nose for (and have done). In terms of price, content and packaging, those Japanese Shimizu sets might as well have been MoC special editions (though I'm sure they'd add some extras and a juicy book).

If the only way I could get a fine BluRay of A Brighter Summer Day was to plunk down 150 quid for a big box that included a near-useless coffee table book of stills, a miniature samurai sword and a souvenir flashlight, I'd do it in an instant. Who cares if I could buy twenty James Bond films for the same price? There's no comparison.

EDIT: Actually, would a pre-pay / subscription model work for this? MoC could propose a list of potential titles, future purchasers could sign up for them and as soon as the subscription list for a given title reaches critical mass their credit cards are charged and the package goes into production. There would need to be some kind of exclusivity (e.g. MoC was world rights for these titles and gives an undertaking that no comparable cheap edition will be coming out within five years or something). Or you could use the music example and have the subscription version a seriously souped-up version of a regular release (e.g. The Mother and the Whore on Moc; The Complete Jean Eustache via MoC's Cochon-In-Muck-Pay-Through-the-Nose Subscription Service.

[Peacock]

There would need to be some kind of exclusivity (e.g. MoC was world rights for these titles and gives an undertaking that no comparable cheap edition will be coming out within five years or something).

Surely acquiring the world rights would cost more than any possible return could bring them? I'd love a Complete Eustache - as would many, but owning the world rights to everything non-Mother, is going to make a lot of angry dvd companies around the world!

[Zot!]

Well the "patronage" system has been in use for some time now, but yes, musicians are having considerable success with efforts like this, where the fans are footing the bill for the recording sessions and getting psuedo-producer credit or work-in-progress demos, downloads and the like. For a film, it would probably have to be a pre-pay kind of deal. Video artists have long sold limited edition "prints" of their work to their patrons. Matthew Barney finances his movies like this. The patrons get ultra-exclusive editions in artist created packaging. Hows this for a laserdisc?


Barney: Part of it had to do with figuring out a way to fund it. Looking to the thing we knew best, which was how to edition and distribute artwork, that's what we did. We made an edition of 10 out of the [first] film, divided the budget by 10 and sold it for that. So, at least the film would break even and the work that was generated out of it could start to fund the following film.

The gallery, however, knows its market. Two years ago, a laserdisc of Cremaster 4, made in 1995 at a cost of $200,000 and issued in an edition of 10, sold at auction for $380,000. A set of five photographs from the same film, made in editions of three, sold for $180,000.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/ ... arket.html
I would love a Eustache collection, but that is probably more mainstream than this kind of effort. Though, I thought the problem with Eustache was the rights. Maybe the owners would be more willing to release rights to a small run. I would be curious what kind of projects perpee would consider if he had his way?

[zedz]

Surely acquiring the world rights would cost more than any possible return could bring them? I'd love a Complete Eustache - as would many, but owning the world rights to everything non-Mother, is going to make a lot of angry dvd companies around the world!

Well, I'm assuming that MoC would be targetting films nobody else would be issuing - really obscure stuff, or films which need a huge amount of work to make presentable. (And the second part of the equation is - if there would be that many angry DVD companies around the world, where are all the Eustache DVDs right now?)