Wagon Master

[sidehacker]

I like Wagon Master alright but I find the "indefensible" Tobacco Road to be a masterpiece.

[domino harvey]

What exactly are your reasons for disliking "Wagon Master", Domino?

It's too loose and sloppy-- it reminded me of the worst excesses of Fort Apache, only without the eventual narrative redemption that film offered. A tired collection of inconsequential events tied up with an anticlimactic bow. Yeah, it looks beautiful, but so do plenty of good movies.

[GringoTex]

I think people on this board have defended other indefensible Ford films in the past (Tobacco Road, the Long Voyage Home), so I shouldn't be shocked.

Tobacco Road to the top of my kevyip. Thanks for the recommendation, domino.

[Tommaso]

A tired collection of inconsequential events tied up with an anticlimactic bow.

Hmmm.... a nice definition of 'epic', I'd say.

[Belmondo]

A tired collection of inconsequential events tied up with an anticlimactic bow.

Hmmm.... a nice definition of 'epic', I'd say.

Seen any movies with a soundtrack by the "Sons of the Pioneers" lately? This very consequential but non epic film succeeded in capturing two eras - the era in which it is set and the flip side of films noir of the same era in which it was made. I'm purposely leaving out any discussion of Ford and just praising the outstanding idea of forgoing a big star and letting that wonderful cast shine.
Great stuff. If I listen to the commentary track (a good one) right after seeing the movie, then the movie gets bought.

[Yojimbo]

A tired collection of inconsequential events tied up with an anticlimactic bow.

Hmmm.... a nice definition of 'epic', I'd say.

Seen any movies with a soundtrack by the "Sons of the Pioneers" lately? This very consequential but non epic film succeeded in capturing two eras - the era in which it is set and the flip side of films noir of the same era in which it was made. I'm purposely leaving out any discussion of Ford and just praising the outstanding idea of forgoing a big star and letting that wonderful cast shine.
Great stuff. If I listen to the commentary track (a good one) right after seeing the movie, then the movie gets bought.

who needs a commentary track with a film as good as this.

For years I felt as alone as the little boy who said 'the Emperor has no clothes on' in my evangelistic championing of this great film
Great to hear so many Ford fans who rate it so highly
(as always, of course, the exception proves the rule!)

[GringoTex]

Wanted to share some of Tag Gallagher's thoughts on the film:

That Wagon Master (1950), one of Ford’s major masterpieces, grossed about a third of any of the cavalry pictures surely came as no surprise. It was a personal project, with no stars, little story, deflated drama, almost nothing to attract box office or trendy critics. Its budget was $999,370, its highest paid actor got $20,000 (Ward Bond). Almost every frame bursts with humanity, nature and cinema, quite like Rossellini’s Voyage in Italy. The story, resembling the Carey-Fords of the teens more than a 1950s western, was written by Ford himself, the only such instance after 1930. He assigned his son Pat and Frank Nugent to write the dialogs, but, said Nugent: “We did not work at all closely…. His script cutting — especially of dialogue — was rather harsh.”

Said Ford: “Wagon Master came closest to what I had hoped to achieve.” It is “the purest and simplest western I have made.”

Wagon Master’s magic is impossible to talk about on paper, yet easy to point to on the screen. It is in the sensuality of its black-and-white photography, the way light falling on landscapes and rivers and people makes love to them. And the magic is in the music. Wagon Master is a musical, a suite of movements, extended vignettes on western subjects: The poker game. The horse trade. The hold-up. The river fording. The thirsty desert. The river bath. The bucking horse. The Indian dance. The whipping. The promised land. And populating the vignettes are western types: outlaws, pilgrim families, cowboys, townspeople, showfolk, Indians. Wagon Master is about these types, the people within the types, and their lines of motion on the screen. Where they are going is, for the movie, less important than that they are in motion. Similarly, the mystery of a Fordian character is not the mystery of what he will do next; it is the mystery of him alive at a given moment.

This is from Gallagher's John Ford: The Man and his Movies, which is the best book on Ford I've ever read. Gallagher has made it available free for download here.

[Ben Cheshire]

I respect Domino's position, as I know I've found the same thing about films other people have loved, but I have to say my experience tallied with the majority here. I've only seen it once on VHS, but it instantly became a favourite; I don't know what it was about it, but I think the looseness was part of its appeal to me. Something about the atmosphere just appealed to me more than mos

Also I happened to really like Fort Apache too...

[Ben Cheshire]

I forgot to mention I've ordered the DVD here based equally on my love for the movie as well as my love for DVDs with original poster art on the cover. And thank god its finally on some form of good quality disc.

[GringoTex]

Fordian dogs, and horses and nature spaek volumes of meanings in his films.

Side note: Johnson has staggering natural horseback skill. I grew up on horses, so I know. Considering how important movement is in this film, I bet Ford cast him because he's pitch perfect horseback. If anybody ever wondered what Cormac McCarthy's description of John Grady Cole riding a horse actually looks like, just watch Ben Johnson in this film.

[GringoTex]

I forgot to mention I've ordered the DVD here based equally on my love for the movie as well as my love for DVDs with original poster art on the cover. And thank god its finally on some form of good quality disc.

The commentary track is a hoot. Bogdanovich keeps repeating "Oh jesus" over and over and Harry Carey Jr. is continuously surprised at how good the film is, as if it's his first time to see it. The best parts are the Ford interview clips played throughout.

[Titus]

The commentary track is a hoot. Bogdanovich keeps repeating "Oh jesus" over and over and Harry Carey Jr. is continuously surprised at how good the film is, as if it's his first time to see it. The best parts are the Ford interview clips played throughout.

I was surprised at how receptive Ford was in the clips. Of course he characteristically shrugs off any notion of artistry in his work, but he seemed rather genial throughout. Not at all the curmudgeon he often was in interviews.

And I loved the anecdote about him asking Bogdanovich if he had ever heard of a declarative sentence.

[knives]

This was amazing, not as much navel gazing as I was lead to believe, but still a fantastic episodic adventure. I'm not sure if I'm ready to call it my favorite Ford, my general pessimism in the face of optimism probably won't allow it, best it is definitely the best made of those I've seen.

Spoiler

Also the outlaw raped the girl, correct?

[whaleallright]

David Hare's comments on this film are very perceptive. I wonder if he noticed the image of the foal planting his little hooves on soil that is recycled under the end credits: a wonderfully limpid image that captures the symbolic rebirth that is the crux of the story. The whole film feels similarly simple, straightforward, even didactic in the manner of a story for children -- to its credit.

Also, I agree that Johnson's performance in this is beautifully assured and relaxed -- another way of saying sexy. Johnson's confidence on and around horses has a lot to do with this. Joseph McBride writes that, in the films he made with Ford at least, Johnson was all nerves on the set. But you'd never know it from the finished work.

[Yojimbo]

David Hare's comments on this film are very perceptive. I wonder if he noticed the image of the foal planting his little hooves on soil that is recycled under the end credits: a wonderfully limpid image that captures the symbolic rebirth that is the crux of the story. The whole film feels similarly simple, straightforward, even didactic in the manner of a story for children -- to its credit.

Also, I agree that Johnson's performance in this is beautifully assured and relaxed -- another way of saying sexy. Johnson's confidence on and around horses has a lot to do with this. Joseph McBride writes that, in the films he made with Ford at least, Johnson was all nerves on the set. But you'd never know it from the finished work.

Ben Johnson's Oscar for 'The Last Picture Show' was, of course, well deserved, but his natural, easy-going performance in this one compares very favourably with it

[Yojimbo]

We were watching Stagecoach again last night and Wayne's first appearance has the same force. .

That Wayne intro is for me one of the all-time great cinema intros: comparable with Omar Sharif in 'Lawrence of Arabia', and Orson Welles in 'The Third Man', to name but two that spring immediately to mind.

I think I read somewhere Ford saying that was a conscious plan by him to make Wayne a star; if so, it worked!

[mentalist]

We were watching Stagecoach again last night and Wayne's first appearance has the same force. .

That Wayne intro is for me one of the all-time great cinema intros: comparable with Omar Sharif in 'Lawrence of Arabia', and Orson Welles in 'The Third Man', to name but two that spring immediately to mind.

I think I read somewhere Ford saying that was a conscious plan by him to make Wayne a star; if so, it worked!

That gaze between Claire Trevor and Duke when she brings out the baby is just about my favourite moment in movies. I well up every time.

[Ben Cheshire]

I finally got around to watching this last night. I enjoyed looking at its classic poster cover so much I nearly forgot to watch it at all!

Having only seen it on VHS, this release was a revelation. Basically, all I wanted to say was 1) what a beautiful film. Surely Ford's least plot-driven and therefore most human film. 2) down with eco cases! This one had the holes behind the disc as well... Grr...

[foggy eyes]

Surely Ford's least plot-driven and therefore most human film.

Eeeep. Cross-post in the "rediculous" thread, please!

Gringo's description of this as one long lateral tracking shot is perfect. Skimming back through this thread, I'm stunned somebody called it "sloppy" - it's one seamless movement, tight as hell, side-to-side rather than head-first. Now one of my favourite Fords too, if not the one.

[Ben Cheshire]

Surely Ford's least plot-driven and therefore most human film.

Eeeep. Cross-post in the "rediculous" thread, please!

Gringo's description of this as one long lateral tracking shot is perfect. Skimming back through this thread, I'm stunned somebody called it "sloppy" - it's one seamless movement, tight as hell, side-to-side rather than head-first. Now one of my favourite Fords too, if not the one.

I can see what you mean, but to me plot driven means writers and audience are driven by what the characters care about; I've seen it twice now and never once cared what the wagon train was doing. Its plot seems to occur naturally, not appear forced as happens when plot determines character. But thanks for your support anyway.

[perkizitore]

Does this contain the same transfer with the US disc?

[domino harvey]

I doubt it. You can always tell a Universal transfer by its excessive grain and the US Wagon Master has the typical smoothness of a WB release

[Titus]

That Universal disc has some of the worst ghosting I've ever seen -- it's borderline unwatchable.

[Jonathan S]

It's perhaps worth pointing out that UK Universal releases of films that were not originally made by Universal or Paramount are, with very few exceptions, to be avoided at all costs. I don't know where they source them but nearly all those I've seen, for example all the Astaire-Rogers titles except Swing Time, look horrendous (in different ways) and far worse than a VHS recording of a 1980s TV broadcast. Some titles (e.g. The Big Steal, Bachelor Mother) are even released in colorized editions without a warning - in fact Bachelor Mother clearly states "black & white" on the box. The "excessive grain" of American Universal transfers is a tiny flaw by comparison!