18 Twenty-Four Eyes

[Fan-of-Kurosawa]

It is such a pity that so few Japanese films are available on DVD.

Because I guess that the Army, Suicide Troops of the Watchtower and The War at Sea from Hawaii to Malay that dancing kid mentioned are unavailable.

These films may constitute Japanese "Wartime Propaganda" but they still have some historical and artistic value. After all, so many American propaganda films (like Sands of Iwo Jima) are available.

And we all know here that the argument "good" propaganda against "bad" propaganda does not stand. At least, not in the year 2008.

[Michael Kerpan]

You've piqued my interest. Do you have the title of Mr. High's book?

The Imperial Screen -- Univ. of Wisconsin Press (I believe).

Because I guess that the Army, Suicide Troops of the Watchtower and The War at Sea from Hawaii to Malay that dancing kid mentioned are unavailable.

War at Sea is (or was) available on DVD from Japan (unsubbed, of course). Army (which featured Kinuyo Tanaka and Chishu Ryu, among others) was available (unsubbed) in one of Shochiku's Kinoshita box sets (I forget which). It may have eventually appeared on DVD separately (if so, still unsubbed).

Some of the other war-related films I want to see: Kamei's Fighting Soldiers and Yoshimura's The Story of Tank Commander Nishizumi.

[jguitar]

I sure hope you guys aren't going to turn this thread into a pissing match over semantics.

I have no intention of doing so. I think my posts in this thread have been of good quality, and this is one of my favorite subjects, but I'm happy to drop the subject in the interest of the tone of the forum if that's where it looks like we're heading.

Don't stop, kid--this has been one of the most interesting threads in awhile. I find the points you're making to be very compelling--and MK's objections in no way make this a "pissing match." Both you and MK have a deep knowledge of Japanese film, and I'm enjoying getting the various film and book references. So lay on, MacDuff.

[Michael Kerpan]

Well -- this isn't the place to discuss the meaning of fascism. I just find the characterization of Hara (by Prof. High -- apparently and not dancingkid) to be pretty obnoxious. ;~{

[tryavna]

This thread doesn't sound like a pissing-match to me at all. Far from it, this has been one of the most intellectually stimulating threads we've had in a few weeks.

I do, however, agree with MK in regards to use of the term fascism, and I think that it's far more important than just "semantics." It really ought to be avoided, since it's historically related to a very specific set of ideological baggage that was largely absent from Japanese politics of the 1930s and war years. Militarism or authoritarianism would be much more appropriate.

After all, so many American propaganda films (like Sands of Iwo Jima) are available.

Perhaps a minor nit-pick, but it's worth noting that Sands of Iwo Jima was made several years after the war and doesn't strike me as particularly propagandistic -- at least not in the same way as the more reprehensible war-time Guadalcanal Diary, where we're meant to cheer as unarmed Japanese soldiers are mown down by machine guns as they retreat into the surf.

[Jack Phillips]

I do, however, agree with MK in regards to use of the term fascism, and I think that it's far more important than just "semantics." It really ought to be avoided, since it's historically related to a very specific set of ideological baggage that was largely absent from Japanese politics of the 1930s and war years. Militarism or authoritarianism would be much more appropriate.

You just can't leave it alone, can you? This was exactly what I hoped we could avoid, an exercise in tail-chasing. The fact is, "fascism" is a term that has been applied to Pacific War era Japan, has been for 60 years or more. As I indicated, the term is contentious, but that doesn't mean it can be proscribed. And anyone can see that a distinction is being made when one uses "Japanese fascism" rather than simply "fascism" (a term that seems more specific to me than either "militarism" or "authoritarianism"). Oh well, on with the semantics debate.

[HerrSchreck]

While the only true capital F-Fascism can be tied to Italy (the same way there can only be one genuine Nazi party, the National Socialist German Workers Party circa 1933-45, turning the word into more of an adjective than a proper noun nowadays when deployed by those firing political cannonballs), certainly there are enough sweeping similarities between the Axis powers' forms of govt-- specifically Japan vs the genuine fascism in their two european partners-- to make the label-assignation perfectly understandable. The program of expansionist conquest. The belief that the conquered constituted plaything races to be deployed for amusement, cheap labor, and carefree experimentation... the coalescence of high vested business, military, and labor around the ultra nationalist warmongering will of the Leader, whose words were deemed in this case not only inviolate but Religiously Inviolate. The hypnotic drilling of Bonzai instead of Sieg Heil. The brooking of no political enemies or discourse. The active propaganda program demanding automatic selfless sacrifice-- of individual ambition, of family, of love for life-- in the act of turning the wheels that Materialize The Will of the Leader. The belief that death in the service of the state/Leader was the highest calling of a man.

It's all there, whatever you call it. And even the film in question-- No Regrets-- uses the term fascist to describe the Indicted Class of warmongers. SO certainly-- given the films success for AK-- the filmmakers weren't using provocative language via this label (I think the film plays it extreeeeemely safe in the regard of indicting anybody), it was all most likely very common and probably old hat to call Hirohito Tojo et al fascists at the time. Although there will be distinctions unique to Japan not present in Italy or Germany, they're probablly no greater than those between, say, the "democratic" govts of USA vs UK, or Germany today, France, etc, some of which are more or less socialist, have Parliamients vs Congress, Lords vs nonclassed House of Reps, etc etc.

[Jack Phillips]

Well said.

[Michael Kerpan]

Two of my favorite post-war Japanese films about WW2 are by Imai -- Till We Meet Again (about a young couple brought together -- and then torn apart -- by the war) and Himeyuri no to (about the nurse's aide corps made up of high school girls who mostly got killed during the battle of Okinawa).

I hope that MOC (or someone) eventually makes these available with subtitles (Nigorie is probably the most essential Imai release -- but it has nothing to do with WW2).

[tryavna]

You just can't leave it alone, can you?

Whoa, where did that come from? This was my first post in this thread, and I thought I was merely echoing/supporting MK in one short paragraph that was buried between two others. I'm sorry if I was beating a dead horse or otherwise bringing up a topic that you yourself had proscribed. (The only thing I would add viz. Schreck's comments is that, for me, one of the key ideological aspects of fascism that separates its European forms from what was going on in Japan is the desire to completely restructure social institutions -- which is reflected in the creation of party-level political para-entities/agents for each existing official institutional entity/agent. The Japanese didn't seem to obsess over that issue quite as much, and it was my perception of that difference being rather important that caused me to suggest that this isn't exactly an argument over semantics.)

At any rate, I'll just bow out of the thread for now, but I do hope that MK and Dancing Kid will continue, though.

[Jack Phillips]

At any rate, I'll just bow out of the thread for now, but I do hope that MK and Dancing Kid will continue, though.

Seconded.

[Svevan]

I finally got around to seeing my MoC disc of Twenty-Four Eyes - and I liked it very much. The use of musical themes attached to characters and situations reminded me of Ozu, and for some reason Tokyo Twilight (though I just watched that Ozu, so there may be others that better exemplify his musical strategies). Anyways, I'm posting this to ask those who know (especially a certain M.K.) about the status of Kinoshita on English or French -subbed DVD; earlier posts in this thread indicate that he is underrepresented in English speaking territories and I'm wondering if anything has changed in the intervening years.

[Gregor Samsa]

According to Kevin from Eureka, they turned down a restoration of this because of its problems:

24 EYES restoration was fudged, we had the tape and sent it back. Totally devoid of grain from memory, and quite waxy. Unfortunately they won't revisit it so, from us (unless they restore it again), it'll only be on DVD.

[peerpee]

Unless this has happened again, the waxy master was circa 2009/2010, and wasn't really a "restoration", just a poor, old unreleasable HD scan.

[tenia]

The only article I found is this one, from May 2012 : http://www.screendaily.com/shochiku-pla ... 95.article" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It says "Shochiku has already restored Kinoshita’s Twenty-Four Eyes", but it doesn't precise when.

[Calvin]

Amazon Japan listing says the 4K scan was done in 2007