Mad Men

[willoneill]

Yeah I did a little more casual research this morning, and while he did change his name to Ali after the first Liston match, most journalists (except for Howard Cosell) didn't accept it at all, and kept calling him Cassius Clay for a while after.

[Yojimbo]

Yeah I did a little more casual research this morning, and while he did change his name to Ali after the first Liston match, most journalists (except for Howard Cosell) didn't accept it at all, and kept calling him Cassius Clay for a while after.

Perhaps thats what it was; I'm sure it wasn't 'til about 1966 we started referring to him as Muhammad Ali

[carax09]

but what really puts it over the top is the meticulous attention to period

for me thats what causes me to delve too deep into it; that theres far too much attention to detail, and the look, and the lighting, and references to the big ad. campaigns of the day.
Its certainly well-acted and good dialogue, but I just need something extra; preferably darker, and not so much 'West Wing' style chumminess.
I actually bought a Season One DVD, but paused about half-way through it, about a year ago

It took a little while (more than half a season), for the complexities of character to emerge in a more satisfying fashion, and for the show to really hit it's stride. In fact, I would argue that the series keeps getting better and better, with this season being absolutely electric, thusfar. I got a text message during last week's episode from a friend who wrote, "when did this show become a screwball comedy?". Which is noteworthy, because at the time, I had been wondering, "when did this show become horror?".

Give it another go!

[Yojimbo]

Give it another go!

I'll eventually finish the box-set, but I've just received my Series One box-set of 'Breaking Bad' which I think could be more in my line, so I'll be checking that out first

[Andre Jurieu]

... but I just need something extra; preferably darker, and not so much 'West Wing' style chumminess.
I actually bought a Season One DVD, but paused about half-way through it, about a year ago

Uh ... I think you might be pleasantly surprised if you had kept watching, especially the second half of that initial season. It gets darker and there's an entire episode devoted to the fact that they aren't so chummy with each other when they feel there's been a deliberate act of aggression. In fact, the Sterling-Cooper execs get rather vindictive in a very subtle way.

I think you'll appreciate Breaking Bad, though it's also kind of a distinctive show in terms of tone.

[Yojimbo]

... but I just need something extra; preferably darker, and not so much 'West Wing' style chumminess.
I actually bought a Season One DVD, but paused about half-way through it, about a year ago

Uh ... I think you might be pleasantly surprised if you had kept watching, especially the second half of that initial season. It gets darker and there's an entire episode devoted to the fact that they aren't so chummy with each other when they feel there's been a deliberate act of aggression. In fact, the Sterling-Cooper execs get rather vindictive in a very subtle way.

that certainly sounds encouraging. But, am I to take it that you agree with me about 'West Wing' chumminess,....or did that turn darker, too?

[chaddoli]

... but I just need something extra; preferably darker, and not so much 'West Wing' style chumminess.
I actually bought a Season One DVD, but paused about half-way through it, about a year ago

Uh ... I think you might be pleasantly surprised if you had kept watching, especially the second half of that initial season. It gets darker and there's an entire episode devoted to the fact that they aren't so chummy with each other when they feel there's been a deliberate act of aggression. In fact, the Sterling-Cooper execs get rather vindictive in a very subtle way.

that certainly sounds encouraging. But, am I to take it that you agree with me about 'West Wing' chumminess,....or did that turn darker, too?

No I understand exactly what you mean and Mad Men isn't like that at all after the very beginning.

[Andre Jurieu]

... but I just need something extra; preferably darker, and not so much 'West Wing' style chumminess.
I actually bought a Season One DVD, but paused about half-way through it, about a year ago

Uh ... I think you might be pleasantly surprised if you had kept watching, especially the second half of that initial season. It gets darker and there's an entire episode devoted to the fact that they aren't so chummy with each other when they feel there's been a deliberate act of aggression. In fact, the Sterling-Cooper execs get rather vindictive in a very subtle way.

that certainly sounds encouraging. But, am I to take it that you agree with me about 'West Wing' chumminess,....or did that turn darker, too?

I can see how it does feel like "West Wing"-style chumminess during the initial episodes, but Mad Men warps into something different once the show establishes itself. They certainly don't immerse themselves in that triumphant camaraderie that West Wing sometimes embellished in order to reassure its audience that people in power were some sort of impossible superior ideal. I think part of what makes Mad Men work is that the characters are so frustratingly flawed, are often quite self-involved, and frequently vindictive towards each other. However, while they're generally rigid in terms of their actions and choices, they're functioning within a period of great change within society, and part of their job (which is now a matter of survival) is to figure out how to exploit this era or transformation. It's also a fairly decent portrait of office politics, where any company solidarity is usually undertaken with personal-interests in mind. Actually, it's not a bad mirror for film-making itself, considering much of the tension within the office is generated from attempting to balance monetary policy with creative control.

Anyway, this is just a long-winded way of me saying that I like it.

Great episode this past Sunday. Loved the parallel boxing matches.

[Yojimbo]

I can see how it does feel like "West Wing"-style chumminess during the initial episodes, but Mad Men warps into something different once the show establishes itself. They certainly don't immerse themselves in that triumphant camaraderie that West Wing sometimes embellished in order to reassure its audience that people in power were some sort of impossible superior ideal. I think part of what makes Mad Men work is that the characters are so frustratingly flawed, are often quite self-involved, and frequently vindictive towards each other. However, while they're generally rigid in terms of their actions and choices, they're functioning within a period of great change within society, and part of their job (which is now a matter of survival) is to figure out how to exploit this era or transformation. It's also a fairly decent portrait of office politics, where any company solidarity is usually undertaken with personal-interests in mind. Actually, it's not a bad mirror for film-making itself, considering much of the tension within the office is generated from attempting to balance monetary policy with creative control.

Anyway, this is just a long-winded way of me saying that I like it.

Great episode this past Sunday. Loved the parallel boxing matches.

I wouldn't agree with your assessment of the reason for "West Wing"-style chumminess; from what I've seen of it, I would consider it an inherent, perhaps even a fatal flaw, in the series concept.
Still I do have the complete box-set, which I bought on impulse during more financially solvent times, so I do have the opportunity to sample a broader selection of episodes to assess whether its strengths more than compensate for its weakness.

As for 'Mad Men', I did think the Pete Campbell character the best thing about it, so hopefully his contribution was at least given as much emphasis in later episodes

[Andre Jurieu]

I wouldn't agree with your assessment of the reason for "West Wing"-style chumminess; from what I've seen of it, I would consider it an inherent, perhaps even a fatal flaw, in the series concept.

I'm a little confused, because I basically agree with you that it was an inherent, and perhaps even a fatal flaw (at least in those last few years - even when Sorkin was still running the place), in the series concept.

I guess I'm of the opinion that it was inherent to the concept, in part because Sorkin & Co. wanted to accentuate the fact that our politicians - and the bureaucracy/public officials that support them - were competent and well-intentioned, in an effort to counter-act the growing cynicism, and ultimately the indifference, towards politics.

[Yojimbo]

I wouldn't agree with your assessment of the reason for "West Wing"-style chumminess; from what I've seen of it, I would consider it an inherent, perhaps even a fatal flaw, in the series concept.

I'm a little confused, because I basically agree with you that it was an inherent, and perhaps even a fatal flaw (at least in those last few years - even when Sorkin was still running the place), in the series concept.

I guess I'm of the opinion that it was inherent to the concept, in part because Sorkin & Co. wanted to accentuate the fact that our politicians - and the bureaucracy/public officials that support them - were competent and well-intentioned, in an effort to counter-act the growing cynicism, and ultimately the indifference, towards politics.

Well its just that my experience of office politics is that not everybody in a team loves the other member,.....!
(its almost a 'sine qua non', as is 'schadenfreude'!)

[Andre Jurieu]

Well its just that my experience of office politics is that not everybody in a team loves the other member,.....!
(its almost a 'sine qua non', as is 'schadenfreude'!)

OK, I'm in agreement with you on that assessment.

Just so I'm clear, we're also in agreement that the West Wing generally displayed their administration as being on the same page, despite slight variations in each character's personal placement on the political spectrum and their willingness to engage in political scheming, with any conflicts or disagreements between staff members only serving as minor obstacles before the team pulled it together to emerge victorious after a hard fought battle with their opposition, where more often than not the staff's shrewd tactics were undertaken in an effort to ensure intelligence and decency prevailed over ignorance and iniquity?

Or did I totally miss what you meant?

I was under the impression that you were hoping for something darker and more in tune with your own personal experiences in office politics than what the West Wing offered, but I also might be totally off.

[Yojimbo]

Well its just that my experience of office politics is that not everybody in a team loves the other member,.....!
(its almost a 'sine qua non', as is 'schadenfreude'!)

OK, I'm in agreement with you on that assessment.

Just so I'm clear, we're also in agreement that the West Wing generally displayed their administration as being on the same page, despite slight variations in each character's personal placement on the political spectrum and their willingness to engage in political scheming, with any conflicts or disagreements between staff members only serving as minor obstacles before the team pulled it together to emerge victorious after a hard fought battle with their opposition, where more often than not the staff's shrewd tactics were undertaken in an effort to ensure intelligence and decency prevailed over ignorance and iniquity?

Or did I totally miss what you meant?

I was under the impression that you were hoping for something darker and more in tune with your own personal experiences in office politics than what the West Wing offered, but I also might be totally off.

Got it in one!

[Andre Jurieu]

Well its just that my experience of office politics is that not everybody in a team loves the other member,.....!
(its almost a 'sine qua non', as is 'schadenfreude'!)

OK, I'm in agreement with you on that assessment.

Just so I'm clear, we're also in agreement that the West Wing generally displayed their administration as being on the same page, despite slight variations in each character's personal placement on the political spectrum and their willingness to engage in political scheming, with any conflicts or disagreements between staff members only serving as minor obstacles before the team pulled it together to emerge victorious after a hard fought battle with their opposition, where more often than not the staff's shrewd tactics were undertaken in an effort to ensure intelligence and decency prevailed over ignorance and iniquity?

Or did I totally miss what you meant?

I was under the impression that you were hoping for something darker and more in tune with your own personal experiences in office politics than what the West Wing offered, but I also might be totally off.

Got it in one!

OK, if that's the case, I'm even more confident that you would enjoy Mad Men, because it's certainly more realistic/cynical in regards to office politics than the West Wing. Just don't hold it against them that Elisabeth Moss is in the series. She's much better in Mad Men than she was on the West Wing.

The "Red in the Face" episode (which I keep bringing up - apologies) from the 1st season is much more in line with the show's fundamental perspective and representation of office politics.

[Yojimbo]

OK, if that's the case, I'm even more confident that you would enjoy Mad Men, because it's certainly more realistic/cynical in regards to office politics than the West Wing. Just don't hold it against them that Elisabeth Moss is in the series. She's much better in Mad Men than she was on the West Wing.

The "Red in the Face" episode (which I keep bringing up - apologies) from the 1st season is much more in line with the show's fundamental perspective and representation of office politics.

.....plus, of course, that it doesn't overly concern itself with drawing attention to the style and the decor and the social context of the time in every episode, and make those more of a subliminal background factor than I felt the writers were doing in those early episodes I've seen

[Andre Jurieu]

.....plus, of course, that it doesn't overly concern itself with drawing attention to the style and the decor and the social context of the time in every episode, and make those more of a subliminal background factor than I felt the writers were doing in those early episodes I've seen

I think the viewer just has to make peace with the fact that the creators are precise about the style and decor of the show. It's a necessity for a show that's concerned with exploring the transitions occurring during a specific era. So the social context of the time does serve a purpose beyond merely stating that "Event A is happening while this stuff occurs", though I believe they have gotten much better at weaving the history of the era into their primary stories. This past Sunday's show is a perfect example, because the Ali-Liston fight was a very important moment in American pop-culture and the event would certainly influence an office that is predominantly male, but the historic nature of the event is only a background to another conflict playing out.

[mfunk9786]

Best blog ever.

[ianungstad]

Gossip columnist Liz Smith is reporting that Mel Gibson is in the midst of contract negotiations with Matt Weiner to have a recurring guest role in Mad Men season 5.

With all the negative press over the last few months, his career in film is pretty much over. I actually think being on Mad Men is probably one of the best career decisions he could make at this point. It's a boon for AMC. In spite of all the awards Mad Men racks up, the ratings have always been soft. While Mel Gibson may not be a box office draw, I'm sure Mad Men will see a ratings spike, which is great.

[Murdoch]

Gawd I hope that's just a rumor.

[ianungstad]

Here's the bit Liz Smith wrote:

NOW HERE’S an astonishing rumor about one of my favorite TV shows and one of my least favorite public figures.

I do mean AMC’s "Mad Men" and Hollywood’s madman, Mel Gibson.

I hear that Mel, who has been laying low since the release of all those private phone chats with his ex, Oksana Grigorieva, met with "Mad Men" creator Matthew Weiner about the possibility of guest-starring in an "MM" story arc next season. (That would be season five, which begins filming next July.)

Mel is a huge fan of the series and really wants in. Most experts agree that Mel’s movie career is kaput. I don’t quite agree on that myself, but some close to Mel assert that he thinks so himself.

Weiner – who is Jewish and can overlook Mel’s infamous drunk rant of several years ago – told a pal recently that he sees a lot of dramatic potential pitting Mel against Don Draper. Well, that’s for sure, and for all of Mel’s issues, I’ve always thought he was a very good and appealing actor.

Mel on "Mad Men" – perhaps an inevitable career move. As George Sanders said to Marilyn in "All About Eve": "Your next step, I think, should be toward television."

[Zumpano]

I thought they were starting to come out of the drunk/alcohol problem storyline.

[Murdoch]

That season closer had me smacking my head, I hope this isn't going to be a Don and Betty part deux

[mfunk9786]

I'm calling for spoiler tags in this thread until I can catch up. I just accidentally came in here and it'll surely happen again.

[Andre Jurieu]

That season closer had me smacking my head, I hope this isn't going to be a Don and Betty part deux

Spoiler

Megan certainly doesn't seem as self-involved or childish as Betty. Actually, I'm fairly certain Don made his choice when Megan reacted in the exact opposite manner as Betty would have to the split milkshake. After all, she is a mild-mannered Canadian.

Or is the anxiety caused by an sense that there's actually some chance he's getting back together with Betty? I thought that last scene between the ex-Drapers sort of made it clear that Don shares none of the same nostalgia about their relationship as Betty has recently experienced (much as a child would when they realize their new arrangement wasn't exactly as perfect as they imagined it to be)?

Of course, I'm just getting a kick out of the fact that Don ended up exactly as Dr. Faye (man, do I feel sorry for her) predicted he would, which is basically a mirror of Roger.

Still, it sucks that Allison was a casuality of all of Don's behavior, though it's probably for the best that she left a while ago.

[kaujot]

Spoiler it for the people who haven't seen it yet, please.