Red State (Kevin Smith, 2011)

[matrixschmatrix]

These critics see his movies for free so that they can shit on them.

I love the idea that it's somehow shameful that critics aren't willing to pay to watch Smith's shitty movies

[willoneill]

I've spent more time thinking about this than I should have this morning, but I'm really bothered by Kevin Smith's actions on all this. I understand (based on his interviews and podcasts) that he's grown fed up with the typical Hollywood machine way of doing things, and that he's bitter about the failings of his last two films (Zack and Miri Make a Porno and Cop Out), and so he's decided to go a different route. I for one think it's a great idea, and would wish him well, were it not for his blatant disregard for people's time with this latest ruse. If he was never going to sell the rights to Red State to anyone (and in hindsight, it's clear he never was), then why tell anyone who would listen that he's going to auction them off after his Sundance screening, only to pull the rug out from everyone. It doesn't make him clever, it makes him a jerk. Maybe he does feel slighted by certain studio heads (eg. Harvey Weinstein), but that probably doesn't apply to all of the executives who were in attendance. And it's likely that most of those executives who showed up to "bid" on the film probably had staff prepare proposals for the release of the film. There's probably at least a dozen or so people at the Assistant level who spent a few hours, maybe even a day or two, of their time putting work into a proposal that was never going to get heard. What did those people ever do to Kevin Smith? Why did they deserve to have their time wasted? In my line of work, I've been in a similar position, and had my proposals sent directly to the garbage bin for very valid reasons, and I was pretty pissed. To hear this, I sympatize with those staffers. If he had heard all the proposals, and didn't like any of them, and decided to go with his back-up plan, then that's fair. But he didn't; all he did was trick people to satisfy (or perhaps protect) his own ego.

Just my two cents, and I have no facts to base any of it on.

(disclaimer: I've liked most of Kevin Smith's films, and even enjoyed parts of teh films I didn't like as a whole)

[Tom Hagen]

I predict his retirement to be as definitive as Michael Jordan's or Jay-Z's were, but that his return will somehow be slightly less celebrated than say the '96 Bulls or the American Gangster soundtrack were.

[willoneill]

I'm not convinced that Smith's retirement will even happen in the first place.

[James Mills]

I've spent more time thinking about this than I should have this morning, but I'm really bothered by Kevin Smith's actions on all this. I understand (based on his interviews and podcasts) that he's grown fed up with the typical Hollywood machine way of doing things, and that he's bitter about the failings of his last two films (Zack and Miri Make a Porno and Cop Out), and so he's decided to go a different route. I for one think it's a great idea, and would wish him well, were it not for his blatant disregard for people's time with this latest ruse. If he was never going to sell the rights to Red State to anyone (and in hindsight, it's clear he never was), then why tell anyone who would listen that he's going to auction them off after his Sundance screening, only to pull the rug out from everyone. It doesn't make him clever, it makes him a jerk. Maybe he does feel slighted by certain studio heads (eg. Harvey Weinstein), but that probably doesn't apply to all of the executives who were in attendance. And it's likely that most of those executives who showed up to "bid" on the film probably had staff prepare proposals for the release of the film. There's probably at least a dozen or so people at the Assistant level who spent a few hours, maybe even a day or two, of their time putting work into a proposal that was never going to get heard. What did those people ever do to Kevin Smith? Why did they deserve to have their time wasted? In my line of work, I've been in a similar position, and had my proposals sent directly to the garbage bin for very valid reasons, and I was pretty pissed. To hear this, I sympatize with those staffers. If he had heard all the proposals, and didn't like any of them, and decided to go with his back-up plan, then that's fair. But he didn't; all he did was trick people to satisfy (or perhaps protect) his own ego.

This isn't how I read the article, though the entire ordeal is obviously rather nebulous. It read to me as if Smith only announced that he wasn't really auctioning it off after nobody bid on the film; as if its cancellation was more to save face for the lack of interest in the product at hand.

Did anyone else think this? I'm interested in reading a more explicit account of what went on at that screening. Either way, I don't think it was a good idea by Smith.

[willoneill]

The article I read on slashfilm.com stated at the producer of Red State, Jon Gordon, got up to "auction" off the film, Kevin Smith quickly bid 20$ himself, and Jon Gordon yelled "Sold!", and than that was it. The reason that, in hindsight, I think this was the plan all along is two-fold:

1. The Red State teaser poster released late last year said "coming March 2011". Yet the film didn't have a distributor yet, so how could a date be set?
2. A few weeks back, Kevin Smith responded to a claim that he directed Cop Out for the paycheck by saying that he took a pay cut to direct Cop Out, and that his motivation for helming that film was to see the internal mechanisms of how a big studio handled P&A. So in hindsight, maybe he wanted to get tips for when he self-distributed Red State.

Again, I don't know, I'm only speculating.

[domino harvey]

James Mills might be right, but his attempt to save face only made him look more like an asshole, so I'm not sure which is worse. Horror movies can always find a distributor, though, so either this is a total dog or Smith's asking price was too high or he's lying (or some combo of all three haha)

EDIT Holy shit, if they really did a $20 bid thing like that, he's done in Hollywood. Jesus Christ!

[willoneill]

Because this has so needlessly fascinated me, I decided to peruse Smith's twitter feed to get his side of the story. I can sum it up thusly:

He originally said, "I'm going to pick a distributor in the room ... auction-style." And that is exactly what he did. It is the press/media's fault for assuming that he meant he'd "sell" the film in the screening room.

... And in a literal sense, he's absolutely correct. But he's also no idiot (no really, he's not), and he had to have known that people would interpret his comments exactly the way they did.

Why does this bother me so much?

[James Mills]

EDIT Holy shit, if they really did a $20 bid thing like that, he's done in Hollywood. Jesus Christ!

Yeah, that's pretty insane. Thanks for clearing that up, willoneill.

Curiously, why do you guys keep referring to Cop Out as a disaster/mistake? I thought that it turned a profit at least, something that should be rather encouraging to future distributors of Smith if they feel that he can have commercial appeal as well as his fanatics. Do you guys mean in terms of its actual quality that it was a disaster? I didn't see it because it looks stupid obviously, but I was under the impression that it could only have helped Smith's career in terms of his future flexibility as a filmmaker.

[willoneill]

If I refered to Cop Out as a disaster or a mistake, I simply mean the general perception of it, that's all. My impression of it is mixed at worse. As for it's profitability, I can't say, but I would assume it only broke even at best. I can't see it being something that Bruce Willias would take a pay cut for.

[cdnchris]

Well, my understanding is Bruce Willis wasn't impressed with Smith or the film so I doubt he did take any sort of pay cut (and I assume he did it for the easy paycheck.)

[knives]

There's been some funny stories about that Chris. This even comes from Smith's mouth to the best of my knowledge, but when Willis came on the set he was distant, but professional for a few hours, but when Smith pulled a Flaherty on the lens and a few other technical aspects Willis just sort of gave up. He edited his own script to have a minimum of lines and refused to do anything Smith said due to a lack of respect. To be honest though it sounds like Willis' asshole behavior was slightly excusable if Smith was that incompetent.

[Tom Hagen]

Local coverage of Kevin Smith and the Westboro Baptist Church at Sundance.

[domino harvey]

I hate to say it, but it's pretty obvious at this point: Mods, we need a Red State thread split

[mfunk9786]

More like thread shit, amirite?

[cdnchris]

There's been some funny stories about that Chris. This even comes from Smith's mouth to the best of my knowledge, but when Willis came on the set he was distant, but professional for a few hours, but when Smith pulled a Flaherty on the lens and a few other technical aspects Willis just sort of gave up. He edited his own script to have a minimum of lines and refused to do anything Smith said due to a lack of respect. To be honest though it sounds like Willis' asshole behavior was slightly excusable if Smith was that incompetent.

Iin defense of Smith (wha!?) Willis has come off lately as very distant on everything and doesn't seem to care much in general, so I'm sure Smith wasn't the whole problem (though I'm sure he didn't help.) Catching interviews with him involving his last few films he really didn't seem to give a shit and was just going through the motions, when I remember him being a very lively and engaging interviewee years ago.

[oldsheperd]

What's this about Smith retiring from film? I thought he gave up on his filmmaking career after Mallrats?
That being said, the title "Red State" probably scared away a few potential distributors. The horrorfication of Fundamentalist Christianity with all the Tea Partiers and Right Wing Nutjobs probably scared away the rest. They wouldn't be able to distribute this film in about 5o% of the country.
Evening with Kevin Smith is the best thing Smith has ever done. That and being a NJ Devils fan.

Cop-Out. I can't believe I paid 6 bucks for that movie. It was like an 80's cop show that only ran for a few episodes on ABC.
The Other Guys was much better.

[mfunk9786]

In the Tweet that launched a thousand angry bloggers, I VERY specifically said " ... I plan to pick my distributor in the room — auction style..." Then, EVERYONE ELSE said I was selling the movie. But I never said that. Very specific wording. Then, I watched as lots of bloggers turned it into "He says he plans to sell the film in the room." So, if you're mad that I didn't live up to a story that I actually really didn't tell ... well, that's kinda my whole point about the press. Ta-da ... I'm just reaching back to an old model from Hollywood's glory days: we're taking our show on the road. GONE WITH THE WIND (which this movie certainly ain't) didn't open on 2600 screens; it opened on one. And played there for awhile. Then packed up & moved to another screen in another city to play there for awhile. We're compressing that process, of course, doing only one screening per night on the tour, but it's their idea, not mine. And the highlight of my light last night was talking to Bob Weinstein at the party after the screening. As @TheJonGordon & I explained our plan, Bob said "You're 4-walling. That's what me & Harvey did in the beginning." To which I said "That's why we call it The Harvey Boys." Then, in true Bob fashion, he instantly did the math on our Radio City Music Hall premiere to tell us we could have the highest per screen average ever. He saw the flick this morning & we spoke again. He loved it; said really nice things about me as a director. Then, in true Bob fashion, he added "If it were mine, I'd tell you take 10 minutes out." It was awesome. It was like being recognized as an adult by your Dad.
But taking our show on the road isn't a new idea. I've taken all of my movies on the road for promotional tours. Only difference is, this time around, we're charging for tickets. And if that price is too high for you, don't worry: you'll be able to see the flick for a lot less on October 19th. But with this tour, our aim is to get financially whole. I want to use actual, recognizable math on our little $4mil flick. Once we clear $4mil (off the tours, the merch, the ViewAskew Garage Sale), we're able to give our investors their money back. So long as we don't spend on marketing, every penny after that becomes profit. No more of this "The movie cost $4mil to make but needs to earn $50mil at the box office to break even." That ALWAYS bugged me: I'd got out of my way to make flicks for as little as possible, then watch folks spend more to market it. But that's how the business works: EVERYBODY does that. It is the standard. And I've done it, too; for 9 films now. So after doing it the same way for 9 times, you start to think about how you'd do it differently: is it possible to sell a flick WITHOUT spending any of that money? With a budget so low, why not try? Shit, just to change it up a bit. For years, bloggers told me I was tired for doing so many Askewniverse flicks. You hear that enough, it sinks in. No artist wants to be called tired, y'know?
So with only 1 flick left that I want to make, I figure why NOT gamble a bit. Because, like I said: if this works out the way we're hoping, we'll have a model we can use with not only HIT SOMEBODY, but any SModcast Pictures we make after it — which would be YOUR flicks, not mine. I've told my stories in film already & I get to tell way more inventive stories every week on all the @SModcast Network shows. But I love being involved with flicks so I figure "Why not help OTHER cats get THEIR flicks out there." If we can build SModcast Pictures into a brand — the way Harvey & Bob made the Miramax name stand for a specific kind of film — then it can become a kind of no-budget service label for flicks we feel fit our ethos or can't find love elsewhere in the world. Indie flicks need special handling, and what we're doing with RedState is simply special-handling it ourselves. And, yes — I'm aware there's lots of bile for me & the flick in the blogosphere right now. But there was lots of bile for me in the blogosphere last week, too. And last year. And the year before that. That was never gonna change. But here's what I've spent the night & morning reading instead: the Twitter feed — where there's been so much enthusiasm & youthful exuberance & zeal for the idea of self distribution, I'll be honest: I've rolled a couple tears. I'll tell you what I'll never forget about Sundance 2011: as I left the stage last night, a couple 20-something dudes followed along in the hallway, saying the dug the flick. Then one of them nearly knocked me dead when he said, with all the earnestness & passion of indie film incarnate "You can do this." And normally I'd say I was just stoned, but since I was THC-free that day, I tell you this not from a stoner, "Hey, maaaann ... " free association, but as something that - in that brief moment — was about as real as raincoats: that kid was a thinner, better-looking, more-pussy-getting version of me, circa '94. And 1994 didn't say "You fucking idiot! Do what everyone else does and sell your flick & spend to open it!" 1994 kinda said "Skate, fucker ... " knowing full-well that if I pull this off, it's gonna be easier for him to get HIS flicks out there. That moment meant the world to me; I'll take it to my grave.
I was telling @JenSchwalbach this morning: it's almost as if, 17 years ago, I came to this same place, and two roads diverged in a yellow wood. Cliche, I know - just lemme finish. So I chose a path that made ALL the difference. And 17 years later, this festival, universe, they all blessed (or possibly cursed) me with the chance of a lifetime: take the OTHER road instead to see what happens. And NOBODY can fault me for doing so, because a) I'm doing it incredibly financially responsibly, b) I'm not asking for help from anyone but the cats who wanna either see this flick or see this model work. c) I did it as entertainingly as possible. For years, I've read "He's no filmmaker." Turns out they were right: I'm more of an entertainer. And any entertainer worth their salt goes out on the road with their art. There was a Tweet last night that called SModcastPictures and the RedStateTour "punk rock filmmaking". I LOVED that. I co-opted Jello Biafra's "Don't hate the media; become the media" for our RedStatement. But what I dug most about the sentiment? It made me feel like I was 23 again. Folks can write what they like, but as an artist, I'm cosmically invigorated & full of piss & vinegar. THAT'S where bold art comes from. They bitched at me for being complacent or for making something as sappy & mainstream. Everything about RedState is the opposite of that... and they're still bitching. And if this was still 1994, and the only way I could find out what people thought of what we did/are doing was by reading reviews or articles, I'd feel bummed that there wasn't more support from a media that bitches about lameness/sameness all the time. But it's 2011 - and via @Twitter, I can INSTANTLY find out how the people who wanna come see the flick or support the cause actually feel.
And I can't thank you all enough for what I've read on this feed all night & today. And I apologize to every Tweeter over the course of the last few months who ever Tweeted "Why don't you just distribute it yourself?" It was SO hard to not respond with "THAT'S THE PLAN, BITCHES!" And you KNOW how hard it is for me to keep my trap shut about ANYTHING. But four days into shooting, @TheJonGordon & I had a serious talk about taking it out ourselves; the possibility of building & BUILDING, instead of building & selling. Our point was this: we were having SO much fun answering to no one, creating the life of the film every day, not following a traditional structure. And I'll be honest: fun's hard to come by in this business, because it IS a business. There's lots of money at play. People tend to get brutally serious about shit that doesn't matter. Original ideas get curbed in favor of the tried & true. As risky as folks are with millions of dollars, the risk usually doesn't extend to the flicks, and why should it: there's safety & financial security or prosperity in the familiar. @TheJonGordon & I were both kinda at wit's end with the rigidity of the old way, but RedState brought back the fun. Everything about the way we're going about things forces us to be MORE creative, and it feels awesome just to be doing the same thing differently for a change. It's reinvigorated us — like when Rooster stabs the horse in the leg in TRUE GRIT: RedState is making us run like we've never run before. And as someone who wants to be an artist, it's just the shot in the ass (or the jab in the leg) that I needed. I'm INDIE again — maybe for the first time, even. It's frightening & thrilling. My heart's been racing all weekend. I feel alive! Young! Punk Rock! I feel like Bill Murray at the end of SCROOGED. There's a Taoist proverb that's been rolling around my head since we pulled into Sundance, and it kind of sums up this weekend for me: "To be great is to go on. To go on is to go far. To go far is to return." Well, I've now returned ... and I'm ready to do it all over again.

That was all tweeted over the course of 2 hours. Good lord dude, put out a press release or something

[domino harvey]

I couldn't even get 140 characters into that before stopping

[jbeall]

My god, I can't think of a bigger "attention whore" filmmaker.

Vincent Gallo, perhaps?

Seriously, Smith's stunts appear to be little more than a public tantrum b/c he doesn't recognize that his schtick has run its course. The scene in Jay and Silent Bob when the titular characters go around beating up their online--online!--critics always struck me as a little too genuine an expression of Smith's thin skin. If he'd improved since Clerks, he might have a point, but IMHO, he peaked on his debut and never proved versatile enough to handle material outside of the Leonardo-verse. Oh well.

[Markson]

I feel like everything that exits this dude's mouth is borne of insecurity. He's just a jackhammer of weird, defensive self-validation and excuses. I heard him last week on Marc Maron's WTF podcast and it was more of the same, basically––he wants to be the little guy, the everyman, but must constantly remind detractors or skeptics (and himself, seemingly) of his great success and die-hard fandom. I've never been a big fan, but Clerks was a good time back when I saw it new on VHS as a fourteen or fifteen year-old. The way his career has gone since has been pretty sad.

[James]

Vincent Gallo, perhaps?

But Gallo is smart; Smith is not. And I don't think Gallo is that much of an attention whore, he's just very provocative.

[domino harvey]

He's also self-aware, which Smith is not times infinity forever

[James Mills]

Vincent Gallo, perhaps?

But Gallo is smart; Smith is not. And I don't think Gallo is that much of an attention whore, he's just very provocative.

I don't think it's really fair to mock Smith's intelligence. He has accomplished quite a bit doing something that he's sincerely passionate about, and to me that kind of determination is a form of intelligence in itself.

I think both him and Gallo are intelligent people, albeit both a little whorish for attention.

[Markson]

I don't think it's really fair to mock Smith's intelligence. He has accomplished quite a bit doing something that he's sincerely passionate about, and to me that kind of determination is a form of intelligence in itself..

By this logic, anyone who earns a good-sized audience through being earnest and somewhat dues-paying is intelligent, which is a specious claim, to say the least. He may appear savvy to a very specific audience, though I reckon this speaks more about his audience than it does him.

And regarding the relative self-awareness of Gallo v. Smith, at least Smith goes out of his way to mention his artistic shortcomings, even if it's clearly sprinkled with a helping of false modesty. I don't know how put-on Gallo's schtick is, but I'm not convinced that any explanation of his behavior would totally justify his persona and output.