28 Toni

[Drucker]

I don't think I can. What is PAL again, exactly?

[MichaelB]

I don't think I can. What is PAL again, exactly?

Phase Alternate Line - it's the video standard used in Europe and Australia. In America (north and south) and Japan, the main system is NTSC (National Television Standards Committee).

The problem is, both systems are quite different - PAL has 625 lines of picture information and plays at 25 frames per second, while NTSC has a lower resolution (525 lines) but runs faster, at 30fps (or 29.97 if you're being pedantic).

Up until about the mid-1990s, both systems were pretty much mutually incompatible, and you'd need dedicated TVs and VCRs to play them, but things have changed quite a bit since then. In my experience, virtually all European DVD players and TVs (and PS3s) can handle NTSC with no difficulty whatsoever, but American setups often struggle with PAL, unless they're dedicated multiregion systems.

But the most effective workaround is to play the disc in a PC or Mac, which should have no problem handling either system.

[Tommaso]

In my experience, virtually all European DVD players and TVs (and PS3s) can handle NTSC with no difficulty whatsoever, but American setups often struggle with PAL, unless they're dedicated multiregion systems.

Allow me an off-topic question, and perhaps even a stupid one, but I never really understood this. According to my experience, all the TVs and dvd players manufactured by the major companies come neither from Europe nor the USA, but invariably from Asian countries like Korea, Malaysia and so on. So why do these companies apparently manufacture different models for Europe and the USA? Why not manufacture the same players and TV sets in the same way for worldwide use, that is, both being NTSC and PAL compatible from the beginning? All the problems that our American members experience with PAL discs would be gone, and manufacturing one type would be cheaper as well, I suppose.

[colinr0380]

According to Wikipedia it seems NTSC was created in 1940s (colour NTSC in late 1953) with PAL coming along in the 1960s (and throw in the French SECAM system too at the same time as PAL!) to try and refine and deal with some of the problems with NTSC. Presumably by that time NTSC was ingrained in the US and elsewhere so it was never superceded/upgraded (until everything was abandoned with the digitial switchovers), plus the different systems probably helped reinforce regional separations.

[Tommaso]

That is true, but it still doesn't answer the question why the same companies offer NTSC-only TVs and players when they already have the same or similar models capable of displaying both NTSC and PAL. It just doesn't make sense to produce two different devices if one is clearly inferior in its capabilities; if regional separations were the cause, all European TVs and dvd players would only be able to play PAL. But almost all of them play both systems nowadays.

[MichaelB]

In fact, so universal is NTSC compatibility in Europe that most classical music DVDs are released in that format, so that the same pressing can service America, Europe and Japan.

[Jonathan S]

In the very early days of DVD, I was told that the main or perhaps only reason most European DVD players had NTSC playback was because we were grouped in region 2 with Japan which uses that format (and makes a lot of the equipment too). I was rather doubtful of that explanation, though, as for a few years then many European VHS players had already offered NTSC playback as a special feature. I assumed the reason it hadn't been standard before the mid-90s was because the electronics were too expensive or perhaps not even reliable enough. (I believe they actually play back in a sort of hybrid called PAL60, not true NTSC, but I'm no expert on this.) There were a few earlier multi-standard machines but I recall they were very pricey.

Another reason might have been a lot of prejudice against NTSC in Europe. When I worked in a college technical department in the mid-80s, NTSC was always disparagingly referred to as Never Twice the Same Colour! American TV shows on UK TV did often look terrible, but since they now appear fine on DVD I guess the bad colour was perhaps a result of NTSC-PAL conversion? Equally, I sense that a lot of Americans hate the 4% PAL speed-up for films shot at 24fps, though - having grown up with this - it rarely bothers me.

The average person used VHS (and now DVD) mainly for recording off-air, and that's where things get complicated. Very few VHS players in the UK ever offered NTSC recording as DVD recorders do. This may have been for technical reasons, but I suspect it could also have been to prevent average users making mistakes. Even I have been caught out a few times with my DVD recorder - using it in NTSC mode to copy say a tape, then forgetting to switch back (unlike with players, this has to be done manually on mine and isn't automatic), resulting in unwatchable timer recordings on the hard drive that should be in PAL.

I can't really comment on the US situation but my impression (even on some film forums, though not this one) is that until recently most American collectors were far less likely to import from Europe than vice-versa. And those are dedicated film collectors - probably a tiny fraction of the whole US market for equipment. So - the manufacturer might say - why add a complicated or expensive (less so now) feature for something that most people will never need? Of course, the internet and increased use of credit cards made importing far easier in all countries - another reason technology has developed to follow a need.

These are just speculations, and I'm happy to be corrected, especially on technical facts.

[MichaelB]

I was rather doubtful of that explanation, though, as for a few years then many European VHS players had already offered NTSC playback as a special feature. I assumed the reason it hadn't been standard before the mid-90s was because the electronics were too expensive or perhaps not even reliable enough. (I believe they actually play back in a sort of hybrid called PAL60, not true NTSC, but I'm no expert on this.)

As I understand it, PAL60 was a kind of simplified conversion that could fool most (then-) current PAL TVs into thinking that it was a genuine PAL signal. But you couldn't record it (a VCR would have insisted on pure PAL or pure NTSC, depending on the system), so it wouldn't work if you actually wanted to convert tapes from one format to the other. Even to this day, while I can happily watch NTSC VHS tapes, I can't convert them into something that will play on my MacBook or iPad as I simply don't have the hardware to be able to deal with the signal. Even the conversion box that I bought a decade or so ago to convert VHS tapes into Quicktime files is useless - it can deal with a genuine NTSC signal, but my VCR can't produce one.

There were a few earlier multi-standard machines but I recall they were very pricey.

When I had a US-based girlfriend circa 1995-6, I had my eye on a Samsung VCR that would actually convert between PAL and NTSC and which was compatible with any British telly, but it cost about a grand so I decided that she wasn't worth it. The cheaper alternative was to buy a dedicated NTSC VCR and TV, but you could only use that for viewing NTSC material off tape - the TV would be useless for picking up European broadcasts, so you'd have to make additional space for it alongside your main one.

Another reason might have been a lot of prejudice against NTSC in Europe. When I worked in a college technical department in the mid-80s, NTSC was always disparagingly referred to as Never Twice the Same Colour! American TV shows on UK TV did often look terrible, but since they now appear fine on DVD I guess the bad colour was perhaps a result of NTSC-PAL conversion?

No, it looks just as terrible in the US - in fact, after spending three months there I was really startled at how good PAL broadcasts looked when I got home. My understanding is that PAL is much better as a broadcast medium, because NTSC loses a lot in transmission - and you'd expect this, since PAL was invented much later, at least partly with the aim of addressing some fundamental problems with broadcast NTSC.

On the other hand, there's much less to choose between PAL and NTSC on recorded media like DVDs. PAL offers a slightly better picture resolution, but has the potential (albeit sometimes corrected) drawback that the sound is a semitone too high because of the 25fps playback speed. By contrast, NTSC offers the correct pitch but a lower picture resolution - and a further problem in that in order to convert from 24fps to 30fps, additional "ghost" frames have to be inserted. This is rarely a problem when viewing in motion, to be fair - the most notorious side-effect is "judder" during pans at a certain speed, though I find this is much more visible in poorly-executed NTSC-to-PAL conversion jobs.

I can't really comment on the US situation but my impression (even on some film forums, though not this one) is that until recently most American collectors were far less likely to import from Europe than vice-versa.

That's absolutely my impression. In fact, even to this day I come across people who express delight that a particular film is coming out in the US, even though it's been freely available in Europe, often in a cheaper and/or superior edition with English subtitles, for literally years.

Mind you, we can be just as selective in Europe, where "importing from abroad" usually means from English-speaking countries or, at a pinch, the French, German and Italian versions of Amazon, as they're reassuringly familiar. I've lost count of the number of times I've recommended Polish or Czech suppliers, only to be asked if I'm not worried about handing over credit card details to dodgy foreigners - as though I'd have any more redress when it came to a US or Australian company.

[Jonathan S]

Thanks, Michael. I find the PAL60 compromise on VHS players - though as you say useless in the past for copying to another tape - works fine for converting black & white NTSC tapes to DVD-R, and in my case that's almost all I want to do - partly because it's my main area of interest but also because colour was so usually so poor on VHS (both NTSC and PAL) that I rarely feel it's worth the bother transferring them anyway. I only play the b&w transfers on standard DVD players, so don't know if they work on other types of equipment.

Your comments about the "judder" effect on panning shots on NTSC are interesting in the light of the problem several of us have noted on Criterion's DVD of Senso. But I've never noticed it as bad on other NTSC DVDs, except as you say in badly executed conversions, and I find it hard to believe Criterion would be guilty of that - but after 10 days I've received no reply from them about it.

[MichaelB]

Thanks, Michael. I find the PAL60 compromise on VHS players - though as you say useless in the past for copying to another tape - works fine for converting black & white NTSC tapes to DVD-R, and in my case that's almost all I want to do - partly because it's my main area of interest but also because colour was so usually so poor on VHS (both NTSC and PAL) that I rarely feel it's worth the bother transferring them anyway.

This is probably a good opportunity to mention that the only significant difference between PAL and the French SECAM system (as far as I'm aware) was the colour encoding - with the result that French VHS tapes played in black and white on British setups.

But that obviously wasn't a problem if the film was black and white to begin with - and often you could get English-language films in Paris that weren't available on UK labels. (You'd have to put up with burned-in French subtitles, of course, but that was a very minor inconvenience).

When DVD came in, the French seem to have switched to PAL, though I do remember them flirting with other non-standard systems in the very early days, notably MPEG-compressed soundtracks. My player could handle them, but apparently that was more down to luck than universal compatibility.

[PillowRock]

Speculation possibility for why European TVs play NTSC but (many) American TVs don't play PAL:

It might have to do with the native playback resolution of the TVs (speaking of the pre-HD world here). Maybe it is simpler (in ways making it much less expensive to build in) to upsample NTSC frames than to downsamlple PAL without creating artifacts so bad as to draw complaints from even the masses who don't mind pan & scan.

In the same way that people generally don't really notice the frame replication when movies are shown in NTSC, a similar line / column replication might slide by most people. On the other hand, the simplistic version of going in the other direction, deleting every fifth line) creates discontinuities that people might be more prone to notice. Interpolation based conversions take more processing and therefore more capable internal electronics.


As a separate point when looking at electronics manufacturers who are also content providers (like Sony), they may be more concerned with keeping the American market isolated than they are with keeping the Region 2 (or 3 or 4) markets isolated.

[Dick Laurent]

As a separate point when looking at electronics manufacturers who are also content providers (like Sony), they may be more concerned with keeping the American market isolated than they are with keeping the Region 2 (or 3 or 4) markets isolated.

That's very true, a good example of this is the PS3, the EU models play both 50Hz and 60Hz, while the US models can't handle 50Hz.

[MichaelB]

That's why both Masters of Cinema and the BFI deliberately author their Blu-rays so that they'll play perfectly in all PS3s, not just European ones (region coding permitting).

The BFI doesn't include SD video at all on their Blu-rays, while MoC deliberately opts for 480p (i.e. NTSC) instead of 576p (PAL).

[peerpee]

We initially started off putting NTSC (480p) material on BDs, but we uprez SD stuff now, to save the annoying TV flip/pause from 1080p to 480p and back to 1080p for menus and back to 480p, etc etc

Both PAL and NTSC SD material can safely be uprezzed to 1080p, so it doesn't matter what the source was anymore really, so long as it's uprezzed properly (and the filesize used doesn't unnecessarily compromise the feature).

[Michael Kerpan]

Another of MOC's most treasurable releases prematurely out of print (purportedly) due to the warehouse fire. Another heart-breaker.

[ellipsis7]

Sadly mourned here too, Michael, a really great film that deserves to remain in print... Sadly I think it never sold particularly well, and in the Darwinian survival of the fittest that the Sony fire has visited, the weakest in the MoC pack are culled, insofar as they are not replaced through a new pressing, and any back stock is now wiped out..

[Drucker]

This doubled in price on amazon.co.uk since yesterday.

Mine has yet to ship, I hope that isn't a bad omen!

[MichaelB]

I was interviewing Aki Kaurismäki yesterday (as one does), and because he was promoting Le Havre, we naturally chatted about 1930s French cinema, and he lamented that even Renoir was being ignored by the younger generation. I told him that Toni wasn't exactly a bestseller on DVD in Britain, and he said that he was sorry to hear that, because he bought a copy himself when it came out and was delighted with it.

So there you go - what MoC's customers lack in quantity, they more than make up for in quality.

Incidentally, he revealed that he watches DVDs through a projector at home, because that's the only way he can recreate the effect of cigarette smoke curling through a beam of light - which for him is an absolutely essential part of the film-watching experience.

[ellipsis7]

Yes, it's very sad that TONI fell OOP, and totally agree that Renoir should be required viewing for younger generations... A redeeming factor is by mid 2012 there will be 6 Renoir films (BOUDU, ILLUSION, RULES, RIVER, CANCAN, & ELENA) in high quality Blu Ray editions, and hopefully more to come...

[John Edmond]

I can imagine, but it just mocks me to think about it. Plus MOC also have The Blue Angel so they could put out the entire cycle.

[tajmahal]

Of all the pantheon directors now only one is unrepesented on Blu Ray: Sternberg.

What an unbelievable situation. If MoC has a fruitful relationshsip with Universal how about they pick up the six Hollywood Dietrichs and get a repair job sorted out on Shanghai express to replace the missing 15 seconds while they're at it.
Can you imagine?

I'm reading a wonderful book at the moment:

THE IDEA OF THE IMAGE: JOSEF VON STERNBERG'S DIETRICH FILMS by Carole Zucker.

The thought of seeing these films on blu-ray after reading the richly detailed descriptions of the great filmmaker's working methods is mouth-watering.

Great book, if you can get your hands on a copy.

[ellipsis7]

Thanks David for pointing out my omission... See the SWAMP WATER Blu is only in a limited edition of 3000 units available from Screen Archives Entertainment....

(UPDATE: And duly ordered...)

A review of the disc...

It's a gorgeous disc, crisp and vivid with strong contrasts and a grey scale that almost looks painted across the screen.

Is this the first time this new company, Twilight Time, is coming up on our radar?... Sounds very interesting indeed, licensing initially 20th Century Fox & Columbia/Sony pictures mainly for limited edition BRs for collectors...

[tojoed]

Is this the first time this new company, Twilight Time, is coming up on our radar?... Sounds very interesting indeed, licensing initially 20th Century Fox & Columbia/Sony pictures mainly for limited edition BRs for collectors...

No, not all, they have their own thread.

[ellipsis7]

Missed that thread first time round.... Very useful, now I know...

[John Edmond]

You're not wrong about Angel obviously but I can never get it into my head in the same space as the Paramount Dietrich pictures. Angel has other attachments and elements that connect it so much to Weimar cinema whereas as the rest of Sternberg is so totally his own universe.

My take, feel free to shake your head at me and call me an ignorant fool:

I know it's different, but birth is different from life. I initially connected The Blue Angel to the rest of the cycle for the simple reason that Morocco is its mirror. Kehr claims Dishonored is the Blue Angel's mirror, but Dietrich isn't even dishonoured let alone humbled in Dishonored. Further more, for me Dishonored is Sternberg and Dietrich mythologising/celebrating Dietriech's new star person. And not just the fact that she became a star but her visual transformation: Dietrich's post-Blue Angel weightloss, Sternberg figuring out how to best light her (sometimes emphasising her now forgotten curves, other times the sharpness of her face - which post-Sternberg she would recreate by other less impressive means), their wealth of props, etc. Both spying and prostitution are performative careers easily linked to acting (in which case her career path in Dishonored is fairly suggestive), with spying giving Dietrich plenty of opportunity to indulge in roles - her heavy thighed* Russian Peasant strikes me as blatant reference to her prior existence as a German hausfrau. UFA and the Weimar republic is where she came from, and the rest of the cycle reflects on that.

*heavy thighed by Hollywood standards only, obviously