942 The Tree of Life

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Mr. Ned
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1001 Post by Mr. Ned »

hollyharry wrote:I can't take any of this post seriously after this piece of writing. A "zeitgeist epic" is a construct that you (and other people) are imposing on the film, and then to have the audacity to criticize the film for "posing" as said imposed construct is the height of absurdity (also, I don't know how "zeitgeist" a film that takes place largely in the 50's can be anyway ; if it's trying to be zeitgeist, it has a funny way of going about it).
No, I think zeitgeist is actually a very apt way of describing The Tree of Life. It appears you've forgotten the entire narrative takes place as a personal retrospective of one character's childhood, one we can surmise is living in present day and is obviously supposed to embody as much impotent postmodern malaise as Sean Penn can make humanly possible, with unbiased refrains of cosmological development speckled throughout for contrast. Am I wrong to assume the entire film is a guy looking back on the last time he was happy, wondering where it all went wrong, before his inevitable spiritual and physical demise (both of which you could argue happen by film's end)? The entire film is built on that three-fold contrast and its relationship to the rise to dominance of American culture, as seen in the film's use of architecture: the idyllic, homespun grandeur of the '50s gives rise to the spacious, clinical sepulcher of empire, with nature's presence withering in the process but casting a no less unbiased eye on human folly. If anything, the film is taking a hard look at the cyclical nature of culture, particularly American culture and its ideological inculcation, and trying to cast a somber eye on it, wondering what the future holds, if even there's a future at all: Malick's youthful bounty has inexplicably given rise to careers, marriages and futures entirely devoid of meaning -- because there's a complete disconnection with the natural world and because there's little evidence of a incumbent generation responsible enough to clear away the mess Penn and Malick's generation has so carelessly provided. Calling my outlook on the film a "construct" at the "height of absurdity" is just scrounging for an excuse to take my internet lunch money, because it's obvious Malick wants to make a comment on contemporary life, using the oh so wonderful '50s where everything was gay and right to emphasize how woefully futile the current world has become. I think that has a certain zeitgeist quality to it, and while Malick tends to emphasize familial pandering more than an imminent economic, environment, religious and cultural collapse, all that is there, too: one need look no further than the almost infantile obsession with Daddy's personal ambitions v. his actual career; Penn's upbringing as a child v. his lack of any children; his parent's troublesome marriage v. his arguable lack of any marriage; his exuberant soul at youth v. his powerless soul at middle age; and, again, the compulsive obsession with the architecture/nature dichotomy that emphasizes this diminishment of vitality with the subtlety of a jackhammer. The entire narrative looks back on a life and its influences to discover where its liver went wrong to in turn find out where his culture went wrong, and if that doesn't have a certain zeitgeist flavor I'm not sure we watched the same movie, even with nature's unbiased cosmological eye used for a spiritual counterbalance. Or, if anything, my reading of the movie happened to accentuate different elements than your own. Pardon me for being glib and clever, or anti-clever, or whatever my thoughtless analysis of the movie cause you to accuse me of.

Calling me a philistine doesn't even warrant a response, not to mention comparing my previous post, which has more to do with my excitement for Melancholia, to what anonymous people on Twitter quipped months before The Tree of Life "even fucking premiered." I assented Tommaso's underwhelming response to a film that catered quite a lot of critical attention, and won the palme d'or over the film in discussion here, which arguably may have won instead if its director didn't have a questionable sense of humor and dodgy social decorum. Not liking The Tree of Life isn't the first time I've gone against majority opinion and it won't be the last, and I won't be the only person who meets the film with a polite displeasure as opposed to some puerile, over-aggressive adoration that borders on fundamentalism. I didn't like the film as much as you: time for my public pillory. I think you arguing the lack of intellectual complexity in Whitman, and poetry in general, demonstrates this isn't so much a critical discussion than you throwing a cyber temper tantrum because someone doesn't agree with your aesthetic archetype. Off with my head.
Last edited by Mr. Ned on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Peacock
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1002 Post by Peacock »

I dunno.... this forum has always been a pretty respectable place and rightly, empty criticism is frowned upon, it's no surprise that people should be annoyed that posts praising Melancholia partly by dismissing Tree of Life in a few meaningless words should be called out.
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Tom Hagen
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1003 Post by Tom Hagen »

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:
hollyharry wrote: I frankly don't give a shit if you like The Tree Of Life or not (also like the very clever way you try evade criticism by painting me as a fanatic), I just don't like lazy criticism.
Well it seems that you do give a shit otherwise why respond? Would you be so vehement in your denunciation of laziness if someone had said 'A died in the wool masterpiece.. Malick is a genius"? I think not.
Well no one would be vehement about that because it sounds like bland, lazy praise. You're always going to get more attention for provocative, lazy criticism than you will for bland, lazy praise, even if both are equally lazy.
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NABOB OF NOWHERE
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1004 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE »

Tom Hagen wrote:
NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:
hollyharry wrote: I frankly don't give a shit if you like The Tree Of Life or not (also like the very clever way you try evade criticism by painting me as a fanatic), I just don't like lazy criticism.
Well it seems that you do give a shit otherwise why respond? Would you be so vehement in your denunciation of laziness if someone had said 'A died in the wool masterpiece.. Malick is a genius"? I think not.
Well no one would be vehement about that because it sounds like bland, lazy praise. You're always going to get more attention for provocative, lazy criticism than you will for bland, lazy praise, even if both are equally lazy.
Negative or positive it is all criticism. To wit...
Criticism is the judgement of the merits and faults of the work or actions of an individual or group by another (the critic). To criticize does not necessarily imply to find fault.
Thanks to Wikipedia the ultimate tool of the slothful.
Titus
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1005 Post by Titus »

Mr. Ned wrote:I won't be the only person who meets the film with a polite displeasure as opposed to some puerile, over-aggressive adoration that borders on fundamentalism.
Is it really that difficult to discern that hollyharry's reaction was generated by this sort of condescending, dismissive attitude, rather than the fact that some people don't like the movie? His response seemed pretty tame when compared to the manner in which the film's admirers are continually being characterized as religious fanatics or something.
Last edited by Titus on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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knives
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1006 Post by knives »

That still doesn't change the intent of his point. Lazy dismissal is far more inflammatory than lazy appraisal.
hollyharry
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:55 pm

Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1007 Post by hollyharry »

Mr. Ned wrote:
hollyharry wrote:I can't take any of this post seriously after this piece of writing. A "zeitgeist epic" is a construct that you (and other people) are imposing on the film, and then to have the audacity to criticize the film for "posing" as said imposed construct is the height of absurdity (also, I don't know how "zeitgeist" a film that takes place largely in the 50's can be anyway ; if it's trying to be zeitgeist, it has a funny way of going about it).
Calling me a philistine doesn't even warrant a response, not to mention comparing my previous post, which has more to do with my excitement for Melancholia, to what anonymous people on Twitter quipped months before The Tree of Life "even fucking premiered." .
You misread my post, that particular part was taking umbrage with the "insurance commercial quip". I was using your post as a jumping pad, so to speak. I didn't really call you (or even domino or anyone else) a philistine. If I remember my post correctly, I quoted a couple of "quips" and called them "pure philistinism". I think non-philistines are capable of isolated philistinism. Going back to religion, it's sort of a hate the sin, not the sinner kind of thing, ya know? I even say that "this forum is better than this" and the includes you, NABOB, domino, etc.

I'm not here to make cyber enemies.

Now, on the rest of your post:

On a basic level, I think the "zeitgeist" of the times invariably lies with young people, so I'm sorry, but I think the idea that a film about a guy reminiscing about his childhood in the 50's is "posing as a zeitgeist epic", like it's Scott Pilgrim or something, is a little silly.

I don't think the film is putting up the 50's as being a better time than even the present, especially considering that Jack has his fall from grace and turn to cruelty in the 50's, and he has his epiphany in the present era. I think it's more a matter of nostalgia for childhood, regardless of era. I don't know what "rise to dominance of American culture" and "casting a somber eye on it" means in the context of the film, I'm sorry, especially considering the final shot is the character finding beauty in said modern architecture (the bridge). I think the film is deeply optimistic about the future. So basically, I think you're wrong. But thanks for the post. This isn't lazy.
knives wrote:
domino harvey wrote:Hard to believe people are having trouble taking the Tree of Life Branch Davidians seriously, what with their well-reasoned accusations of philistinism against those who fail to see the beauty in their chosen holy text. Yes, I know you think your Art Film can beat up our Art Film, but way to bring a machete to a Nerf fight with that particular lob!
As much as we disagree on Tree of Life dues where dues are due, the Davidians line is hilarious.
It IS a funny quip, I agree. Clever, too.
Titus wrote:
Mr. Ned wrote:I won't be the only person who meets the film with a polite displeasure as opposed to some puerile, over-aggressive adoration that borders on fundamentalism.
Is it really that difficult to discern that hollyharry's reaction was generated by this sort of condescending, dismissive attitude, rather than the fact that some people don't like the movie? His response seemed pretty tame when compared to the manner in which the film's admirers are continually being characterized as religious fanatics or something.
I didn't even catch that part. Damn, I thought it was a good post too, for the most part.
Last edited by hollyharry on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1008 Post by matrixschmatrix »

Honestly, I think Tree of Life- more than most movies, and especially more than most art movies- makes a personal connection with those upon whom it works, and makes them (including me) defensive about it in a way that may come off more like an imdb poster defending The Dark Knight, particularly in response to glib dismissals. There aren't a lot of movies where attacking them in any way makes me angry, but ToL struck a really sympathetic chord in me, so going after it for being simplistic or empty or whatever feels like it is saying that I myself am simplistic or empty, in a way that's totally untrue of say Certified Copy (my next favorite movie of the year.) It's a special case.
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Tom Hagen
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1009 Post by Tom Hagen »

matrixschmatrix wrote:Honestly, I think Tree of Life- more than most movies, and especially more than most art movies- makes a personal connection with those upon whom it works
This is very true for me as well. It's not that I "got" the film in a way that the detractors didn't, or that I am especially enthusiastic about Malick in general (or enough so that I went in hoping, expecting, and ultimately willing into existence a masterpiece); what made The Tree of Life such a special, transcendent experience were the very personal (and for me, very true) chords that it struck. I'd like to think that the film can also be defended on more neutral turf as well, and I think many of us have tried to do so.
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Mr Sausage
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1010 Post by Mr Sausage »

Mr. Nedd wrote:...using the oh so wonderful '50s where everything was gay and right to emphasize how woefully futile the current world has become.
This is not accurate. The 50's setting is not idealistic; it's filled with a lot of negative emotions, too, most especially from Penn's father, who bullies him in order to make him hard, and who takes his petty frustrations out on his family.
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NABOB OF NOWHERE
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Re: Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

#1011 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE »

knives wrote:That still doesn't change the intent of his point. Lazy dismissal is far more inflammatory than lazy appraisal.
Tell that to Sarah Deming
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knives
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1012 Post by knives »

You win this round, but once I've coughed up all this phlegm something something something.
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sidehacker
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1013 Post by sidehacker »

Murdoch wrote:Just watched it tonight and I wonder
Spoiler
if Jessica Chastain floating was a nod to Zerkalo. Whether the similarity is intentional or not it was my favorite moment of the film, next to Chastain lying in the glass coffin. Really whenever she was on camera were the highlights for me.
Overall I liked it, I wouldn't rank it as highly as The New World or even Thin Red Line, but like every Malick film there are images which completely captivate me, and the score was magnificent.
To me, the
Spoiler
Zerkalo
nod is very overt since I think this Malick's equivalent to that film. A very polarizing story that is deeply personal and kind of uncomfortable at times.
Spoiler
For Tarkovsky, it's his father's poetry, for Malick's the overt religiousness, especially towards the end
Johnbnb
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1014 Post by Johnbnb »

Zeitgeist? You really should avoid that kind of concept. It is totally unappropriate for describing Malick’s Waco or adult Jack's world. By the way, do you know Gombrich’s considerations about "zeitgeist"?

A very interesting review: Either and Or: On Terrence Malick’s Tree of Life. Maybe Moritz Pfeifer’s text will help you to find something better to talk about.
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jwd5275
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1015 Post by jwd5275 »

Johnbnb wrote:Zeitgeist? You really should avoid that kind of concept. It is totally unappropriate for describing Malick’s Waco or adult Jack's world. By the way, do you know Gombrich’s considerations about "zeitgeist"?

A very interesting review: Either and Or: On Terrence Malick’s Tree of Life. Maybe Moritz Pfeifer’s text will help you to find something better to talk about.
Why? Do you have the definitive interpretation?

Mind you I may even agree that the word 'zeitgeist' doesn't fit, but it is 'unappropriate' to set yourself as arbitrator of correct interpretations telling us what concepts to avoid without even attempting to back them up, instead just name dropping.

...and Pfeifer is way off base on the Snow White thing, the glass coffin has been around for saints and reliquaries for long before Disney got to it.
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thirtyframesasecond
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1016 Post by thirtyframesasecond »

The Zerkalo references go beyond Chastain floating, it seems a quite obvious kindred spirit.
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flyonthewall2983
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1017 Post by flyonthewall2983 »

Just watched it last night. I'm with domino on the shrug level, at it's best it's absolutely stunning to look at. The family stuff, at times, was really hard to watch for very personal reasons. I ended up thinking more about my own childhood and events which paralleled things that happened in my own house, probably more than anything else.

But I felt, despite it's good intentions, it rambled in places. And I say this as someone who loves his previous work. Films that according to a lot of people, has it's own fair share of rambling and meandering going on. I think for this, we can be thankful that he's working more now. I'm sure the next project won't show as much rust.
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NABOB OF NOWHERE
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1018 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE »

Just to rake over the coals again I watched this again on DVD the other night and my 'lazy' insurance ad dismissal still stands. Regarding 'lazy', did Malick just go out and buy one of those 'Chill-out classics' albums to tack on as a soundtrack?
I can see how its defenders, as matrix noted, feel personally slighted by adverse reaction but the whole tone of its admirers seems to be predicated on a defence of 'cosmological' cinema as if anyone at odds with this is a heretical philistine.
Even Adrian Martin who is the most generous and insightful critic I know and fully deserves the crown vacated by Raymond Durgnat starts on the back foot about this, albeit as might be expected in a far more elevated register.
Now I can take cosmological, hey I got a Brakhage tattoo and have read my Joseph Campbell but this still leaves me shifting in my seat.
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matrixschmatrix
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1019 Post by matrixschmatrix »

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:Just to rake over the coals again I watched this again on DVD the other night and my 'lazy' insurance ad dismissal still stands. Regarding 'lazy', did Malick just go out and buy one of those 'Chill-out classics' albums to tack on as a soundtrack?

I can see how its defenders, as matrix noted, feel personally slighted by adverse reaction but the whole tone of its admirers seems to be predicated on a defence of 'cosmological' cinema as if anyone at odds with this is a heretical philistine.
How can you say these two things in a row and not note a contradiction? I have no issue with the movie not working for you, or with you rejecting whatever genre its in or whatever, but regardless of how many times you've seen the movie these critiques are reductive to the point of being meaningless. Honestly, dismissing all classical music as sounding like 'chill out classics' is actively courting an accusation of philistinism, so it's disingenuous to pretend that urge is originating on the other side of this argument.
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NABOB OF NOWHERE
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1020 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE »

Who is "dismissing all classical music" ? If you check out the soundtrack and put it up against the standard fare of Chill out Classics compilations you might find a correlation. Why is this deemed philistinism and where the contradiction?
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Michael Kerpan
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1021 Post by Michael Kerpan »

Out of curiosity -- what classical music is used?
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matrixschmatrix
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1023 Post by matrixschmatrix »

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:Who is "dismissing all classical music" ? If you check out the soundtrack and put it up against the standard fare of Chill out Classics compilations you might find a correlation. Why is this deemed philistinism and where the contradiction?
The contradiction is that you're saying that the reactions people are having to your attacks on ToL are based on their intolerance for any attacks on 'cosmological' cinema, while simultaneously making childish, lazy attacks yourself. And the philistinism of that attack is that essentially you're dismissing a huge swatch of really brilliant classical music because it happens to have been purposed for a silly end at some point, which is just goddamn foolish.
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Michael Kerpan
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1024 Post by Michael Kerpan »

Well if this is what is meant by a chill-out classics compilation I don't see any reason why one need sneer at the music (or a similar selection of music in a film).. ;~}
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NABOB OF NOWHERE
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Re: The Tree of Life (Terrence Malick, 2011)

#1025 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE »

Glad to see that "all" classical music has been graciously eroded to a "huge swatch" which is till a rather substantial exaggeration. A propos the "silly end". This I trust is a reference to the music companies 'Chill out' marketing initiative as opposed to Tree's soundtrack or are you beginning to sway towards the other camp aka the ship of fools?
By the by there is no dismissal of the music per se.
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