Melancholia (Lars von Trier, 2011)

[Reliakor]

Depression is pretty constant for many people.
I should add that I don't think her disdain for bourgeois life is of the moral or political sort; she just doesn't think she belongs in that world, and she can never be what she's expected to be: the perfect bride and upwardly mobile career woman. It's no accident that her breakdown as many major pressures peak and converge at the same time: extended wedding celebrations that are picture-perfect and everything needs to happen on schedule and on cue, celebrations she feels entirely isolated from but which she's repeatedly told not to spoil because of their material cost; a major promotion in front of everyone; come up with a tagline tonight or this kid gets fired, etc. So I find it bizarre to say that she just happened to be having a bad day.

It also seems to be the case that Justine lacks a lot of the emotional support she would need to deal properly with her affliction. She repeatedly attempts to reach out to her father and mother, and is either avoided in the case of her father, or oppressed by her mother's self-indulgent negativity. Her sister, while there for her at least physically and with basic concern, evinces Reliakor's attitude: Claire's pragmatism finds Justine burdensome, and she's repeatedly irritated that he sister can't just snap out of it and be practical the way that she herself is. It's unfortunately the case (well observed by von Trier) that people often resent those sufferers of mental illness they must care for, no matter how much they love the sufferer, because that person just can't do simple things, easy things you'd think, and therefore monopolizes attention. When something seems so simple to you, it can be hard to watch a grown adult just fail to do such simple things (and which you must now do for them). That's where the 'why can't you just snap out of it?!' response usually comes from.

What makes the climax so wonderful is that when Claire can no longer be pragmatic, can no longer find shelter in either her material lifestyle or the authority of her husband, she turns to her sister for support--and her sister gives it, even at the moment when the gesture should be the most meaningless. Depression is a disease that makes you turn inward, closes you off in your own skull; that's unavoidable. Justine, repeatedly looking for a way out of this, finds two escapes from it: in the end of her consciousness, and in a gesture of comfort and human sympathy for people whose fear and despair she actually doesn't share. Where Claire is weakest, Justine is strongest, and vice versa. But at the end of the movie both have stepped outside of their petty self-concerns for one brief moment. If you don't find that moving on a basic human level, all I can do is shrug.

I do find the ending of the film moving, but I think it absurd of Von Trier to formulate this kind of duality between the catatonic depressive and her shallow, conventional foil (neither of whom I can stand). My dislike of Justine stems precisely from her species of depression having no strong ideological basis, and therefore only being a pathological condition. Hamlet could be considered a depressive person, but it doesn't manifest itself infantilely.

[Mr Sausage]

Should also be noted that Justine's self-destructive actions comes from a far more honest and clear-sighted place than the productive actions of everyone else. Her depression makes her inappropriately act on genuine feeling. I imagine the first half as being like pulling apart a fabric that's already beginning to come undone at the edges anyway.

I do find the ending of the film moving, but I think it absurd of Von Trier to formulate this kind of duality between the catatonic depressive and her shallow, conventional foil (neither of whom I can stand). My dislike of Justine stems precisely from her species of depression having no strong ideological basis, and therefore only being a pathological condition. Hamlet could be considered a depressive person, but it doesn't manifest itself infantilely.

I've just realized that you have no idea what you mean. Most especially because your go-to example here is Hamlet. I mean, really? In no way could that be comparing like with like. Not only that, but you dislike a person for suffering from a pathological condition, ie. one that she cannot help having!

This movie gives you the opportunity to share and understand the feelings of a person suffering from something outside of their control. As far as I can tell, you have failed this opportunity.

[mfunk9786]

I don't like the way you've chosen to be mentally ill, bitch

[Gregory]

While I tend to be critical of psychiatry, I know someone who is not. His response to Melancholia, having only read a description, was to scoff, "They have drugs for that!"

[Reliakor]

Should also be noted that Justine's self-destructive actions comes from a far more honest and clear-sighted place than the productive actions of everyone else. Her depression makes her inappropriately act on genuinely feeling. I imagine the first half as being like pulling apart a fabric that's already beginning to come undone at the edges anyway.

I do find the ending of the film moving, but I think it absurd of Von Trier to formulate this kind of duality between the catatonic depressive and her shallow, conventional foil (neither of whom I can stand). My dislike of Justine stems precisely from her species of depression having no strong ideological basis, and therefore only being a pathological condition. Hamlet could be considered a depressive person, but it doesn't manifest itself infantilely.

I've just realized that you have no idea what you mean. Most especially because your go-to example here is Hamlet. I mean, really? In no way could that be comparing like with like. Not only that, but you dislike a person for suffering from a pathological condition, ie. one that she cannot help having!

This movie gives you the opportunity to share and understand the feelings of a person suffering from something outside of their control. As far as I can tell, you have failed this opportunity.

Where do you draw the line? What condition or circumstance may not have its etiology so schematized as to render the existence of free will absolutely dubious? Is depression a special condition for which no shades of grey exist? Do all severe depressives require their sister to bathe them (in the midst of a hysterically weepy fit)?

[Reliakor]

I don't like the way you've chosen to be mentally ill, bitch

No, a reduction of my stance would be more along the lines of (to Justine): "You're certainly depressed, but you're also an asshole." See the difference?

[Zot!]

I also don't think it's necessary to like Justine, but it is important to understand her illness. Although irrelevant to the story, it does seem disingenuous that there isn't at least some discussion of treatment (meds) or lack thereof, especially to get through something like a wedding.

[mfunk9786]

Most medication for depression comes with some kind of major side effects, and sometimes takes months to really get going. Also, there are some people for whom none of these medications work well, and going off and onto them can make their symptoms worse. I don't know if it would have been in the best interest for the film to get into that hornet's nest.

Maybe if we ignore Reliakor, he'll just go away.

[Mr Sausage]

Where do you draw the line? What condition or circumstance may not have its etiology so schematized as to render the existence of free will absolutely dubious? Is depression a special condition for which no shades of grey exist? Do all severe depressives require their sister to bathe them (in the midst of a hysterically weepy fit)?

Your confusion is so fundamental that it's difficult to know where to start. Free will is not a relevant issue here. Clinical depression is a disruption of proper brain chemistry. Your post makes as much sense as demanding a severely drunk person use their free will to stop slurring their speech. If your brain chemistry won't allow certain responses, then it won't, free will is irrelevant. You can only act as your brain allows you. And if your brain exhausts you, makes you anhedonic, overwhelmed with feelings that have no location outside of you on top of external stressers doing your condition no good, then your range of reaction is going to be limited.

If you think acting erratically under a mental affliction makes someone an asshole, so be it. Note that Justine manages a gigantic expression of human sympathy while you cannot even manage a relatively minor one being handed to you like a gift.

[Keyrek]

I also don't think it's necessary to like Justine, but it is important to understand her illness. Although irrelevant to the story, it does seem disingenuous that there isn't at least some discussion of treatment (meds) or lack thereof, especially to get through something like a wedding.

As a tangential note to that, at the beginning of part two, I presumed Justine was at some kind of mental health clinic (the business w/ the cab) that ultimately failed to get through to her.

[Zot!]

I also don't think it's necessary to like Justine, but it is important to understand her illness. Although irrelevant to the story, it does seem disingenuous that there isn't at least some discussion of treatment (meds) or lack thereof, especially to get through something like a wedding.

As a tangential note to that, at the beginning of part two, I presumed Justine was at some kind of mental health clinic (the business w/ the cab) that ultimately failed to get through to her.

Interesting take, I thought she was just at her apartment and wasn't coping, but that is a better reading. I agree that a deep examination of meds would have been unnecessary, but the fact that such a large wedding was arranged for someone who was so touch and go is skirting unbelievability. I guess the killer planet science is also suspect, so I think I just need to stop nitpicking.

[Roger Ryan]

I was fortunate to catch this in a theater last night and found it very appealing. Given its already elliptical style, I thought it could have been trimmed down a bit (the "Claire" segment seemed a bit padded out for its content), but really liked the collision between the galactic and the personal. I don't see how the audience could not sympathize with Justine during the film's first half which is truly a wedding reception from hell (it must be four or five in the morning when that damn onion soup is being served!). I didn't expect something this surreal or satirical to be emotionally satisfying as well.

A couple of things to chew on...

Spoiler

I took it that the Google search result page for "Melancholia" made no mention of the mystery planet of that name, but only the condition; could this suggest that von Trier wants it known up front that the planet is strictly metaphorical and is the result of a shared hallucination among the four characters on the estate?

Credit to my son for picking up on this, but Claire and her son are shown struggling on the green of "Hole 19" on the estate's golf course when it has been mentioned repeatedly that there are only 18 holes. What meaning can we take from this?

[Reliakor]

Where do you draw the line? What condition or circumstance may not have its etiology so schematized as to render the existence of free will absolutely dubious? Is depression a special condition for which no shades of grey exist? Do all severe depressives require their sister to bathe them (in the midst of a hysterically weepy fit)?

Your confusion is so fundamental that it's difficult to know where to start. Free will is not a relevant issue here. Clinical depression is a disruption of proper brain chemistry. Your post makes as much sense as demanding a severely drunk person use their free will to stop slurring their speech. If your brain chemistry won't allow certain responses, then it won't, free will is irrelevant. You can only act as your brain allows you. And if your brain exhausts you, makes you anhedonic, overwhelmed with feelings that have no location outside of you on top of external stressers doing your condition no good, then your range of reaction is going to be limited.

If you think acting erratically under a mental affliction makes someone an asshole, so be it. Note that Justine manages a gigantic expression of human sympathy while you cannot even manage a relatively minor one being handed to you like a gift.

No, this is a bit too simplistic. Take the bolded analogy. I'd contend that my point is more akin to asserting that not all drunk people become loud, belligerent and violent. That certain people do is of course true. That others may turn taciturn, withdrawn, and pensive is also true. Others yet may become warmly sociable. Similarly, claiming that all severely depressed people behave like Justine is erroneous, so then why pretend that her disease informs every aspect of her behavior?

[Reliakor]

As for projecting a dislike of a character onto a reading of the film for no other reason than that perception of the character, he relinquishes any claim to an intelligent response to the film, one which is no more than "I don't like the film becase she's an asshole." Yet I could happily listen to negative criticism based on formal elements or genuine concerns for instance with whether an actor's performance and the director's guidance works, fits into the scheme of things or not.

You're overlooking the part where I said I found Justine's section the most watchable, Claire's being overwhelmed by narrative stasis. By no means is my attitude toward Justine (and by extension, Von Trier's) my sole problem with Melancholia.

Edit: Oh, and any distinction between form and content is an artificial one. Concepts, ideas, perspectives are as embedded in the meaning of a film as color is, or shooting technique, or editing, or whatever we commonly consider "formal" aspects. That you think problems (asserted on my end) with the main character of a film cannot mar its aesthetic value, given other relevant factors (like an implicit demand for sympathy for/identification with that character, etc.), is bizarre.

[Zot!]

why pretend that her disease informs every aspect of her behavior?

Because the title of the Movie is Melancholia, and a giant planet called Melancholia is going to crash into earth destroying everything. I somehow sensed there was some overt symbolism here, but you never know.

[Mr Sausage]

No, this is a bit too simplistic. Take the bolded analogy. I'd contend that my point is more akin to asserting that not all drunk people become loud, belligerent and violent. That certain people do is of course true. That others may turn taciturn, withdrawn, and pensive is also true. Others yet may become warmly sociable. Similarly, claiming that all severely depressed people behave like Justine is erroneous, so then why pretend that her disease informs every aspect of her behavior?

Oh for Christ's sake. Congratulations on missing the actual analogy, that a chemically altered brain cannot simply be willed out of its chemical alterations.

I'm not going to argue this with you anymore because I think what you're doing, using sophisms to attack people over medical conditions of which you remain almost totally ignorant, is appalling. I'll just leave you with some preliminary reading from UC Berkeley's Health Services:

When we refer to depression in the following pages, we are talking about "clinical depression." Clinical depression is a serious medical illness that negatively affects how you feel, the way you think and how you act. Individuals with clinical depression are unable to function as they used to. Often they have lost interest in activities that were once enjoyable to them, and feel sad and hopeless for extended periods of time. Clinical depression is not the same as feeling sad or depressed for a few days and then feeling better. It can affect your body, mood, thoughts, and behavior. It can change your eating habits, how you feel and think, your ability to work and study, and how you interact with people. People who suffer from clinical depression often report that they "don't feel like themselves anymore."

Clinical depression is not a sign of personal weakness, or a condition that can be willed away. Clinically depressed people cannot "pull themselves together" and get better. In fact, clinical depression often interferes with a person's ability or wish to get help. Clinical depression is a serious illness that lasts for weeks, months and sometimes years. It may even influence someone to contemplate or attempt suicide.

[Reliakor]

No, this is a bit too simplistic. Take the bolded analogy. I'd contend that my point is more akin to asserting that not all drunk people become loud, belligerent and violent. That certain people do is of course true. That others may turn taciturn, withdrawn, and pensive is also true. Others yet may become warmly sociable. Similarly, claiming that all severely depressed people behave like Justine is erroneous, so then why pretend that her disease informs every aspect of her behavior?

Oh for Christ's sake. Congratulations on missing the actual analogy, that a chemically altered brain cannot simply be willed out of its chemical alterations.

I'm not going to argue this with you anymore because I think using sophisms to attack people over medical conditions of which you remain almost totally ignorant is appalling. I'll just leave you with some preliminary reading from UC Berkey's Health Services:

When we refer to depression in the following pages, we are talking about "clinical depression." Clinical depression is a serious medical illness that negatively affects how you feel, the way you think and how you act. Individuals with clinical depression are unable to function as they used to. Often they have lost interest in activities that were once enjoyable to them, and feel sad and hopeless for extended periods of time. Clinical depression is not the same as feeling sad or depressed for a few days and then feeling better. It can affect your body, mood, thoughts, and behavior. It can change your eating habits, how you feel and think, your ability to work and study, and how you interact with people. People who suffer from clinical depression often report that they "don't feel like themselves anymore."

Clinical depression is not a sign of personal weakness, or a condition that can be willed away. Clinically depressed people cannot "pull themselves together" and get better. In fact, clinical depression often interferes with a person's ability or wish to get help. Clinical depression is a serious illness that lasts for weeks, months and sometimes years. It may even influence someone to contemplate or attempt suicide.

If you wish to continue oversimplifying and misreading me, so be it.

Me: John Nash was schizophrenic. Nijinsky was schizophrenic. The vicious serial killer who lived the county over was schizophrenic.

You: SCHIZOPHRENIA IS A DISEASE. ONE CANNOT WILL ONESELF OUT OF SCHIZOPHRENIA. SCHIZOPHRENIC PEOPLE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT OCCURS UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THEIR DISEASE. SCHIZOPHRENIC PEOPLE ARE NOT BAD.

[Mr Sausage]

SCHIZOPHRENIA IS A DISEASE.

Unarguably true.

ONE CANNOT WILL ONESELF OUT OF SCHIZOPHRENIA.

Unarguably true.

SCHIZOPHRENIC PEOPLE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT OCCURS UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THEIR DISEASE.

That's basic law: a person shown to be suffering from mental insanity can be held to be not responsible for their actions.

SCHIZOPHRENIC PEOPLE ARE NOT BAD.

Irrelevant one way or the other.

Also, this should be basic enough: stop confounding different mental afflictions.

[zedz]

My brain hurts.

Does that make me a bad person?

[Zot!]

The manifestation of clinical depression in Melancholia is not unrealistic and it's onset in the film is extremely obvious. You are welcome to interpret her as a unpleasant person as a result if you like, her sister often does. We don't see much of her in a healthy state, but we can imagine she is certainly a lot more pleasant to be around, as evidenced by the limo ride. Can we please end this now?

[knives]

My brain hurts.

Does that make me a bad person?

Coming from a family of depressives who act exactly like the Dunst character my brain hurts pretty bad myself. Why does every idiot with a keyboard want to kill the author in the dumbest of ways?

[Reliakor]

SCHIZOPHRENIA IS A DISEASE.

Unarguably true.

ONE CANNOT WILL ONESELF OUT OF SCHIZOPHRENIA.

Unarguably true.

SCHIZOPHRENIC PEOPLE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT OCCURS UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THEIR DISEASE.

That's basic law: a person shown to be suffering from mental insanity can be held to be not responsible for their actions.

SCHIZOPHRENIC PEOPLE ARE NOT BAD.

Irrelevant one way or the other.

Also, this should be basic enough: stop confounding different mental afflictions.

I confounded nothing. Indeed you are the person who began to compare depression to drunkenness (while driving to boot!). If you can't see how those mantras I posted have little relation to my points...

[mfunk9786]

Oy vey, how long do we have to wait for a ban and threadsplit this time?

[Gregory]

Reliakor, even if, for the sake of argument, the point is conceded that Justine acts like an "asshole," why is this kind of discussion in any way a useful way of approaching or discussing the film? David has already offered this criticism of your line of argument. If you want films about "admirable" people, role models or whatever, I think Von Trier's films are not likely to be fertile ground for you. Besides, I and others have argued that she ultimately does something admirable (though that's hardly the entire point here) in what are pretty much the most bleak and hopeless circumstances imaginable.

[Reliakor]

If you want films about "admirable" people, role models or whatever, I think Von Trier's films are not likely to be fertile ground for you. Besides, I and others have argued that she ultimately does something admirable (though that's hardly the entire point here) in what are pretty much the most bleak and hopeless circumstances imaginable.

I found Dancer in the Dark and Breaking the Waves very fine and powerful films, so I don't have any animus against Von Trier or his particular concerns. I was only trying to explain why this film didn't work for me.