331 Late Spring

[MichaelB]

Yes, unless Criterion did a new one in the interim it'll be exactly the same.

As far as I recall, the BFI used Criterion's transfers for all their Ozu BDs apart from Good Morning, where the shortcomings of the Criterion transfer were so notorious that they commissioned a new one.

[Gregory]

But the BFI "work on" the Criterion transfers for their Ozu releases at least in some cases, right? This DigitalFix review claims that the BFI boosted contrast slightly on the Late Spring transfer and completed "further picture and audio restoration." Granted, differences between the two, if there are any, are likely to be very slight.

I already have the Criterion DVDs of Late Spring and The Only Son and am having a hard time deciding whether it's worth it to buy the region B set for what look to be minimal improvements on The Only Son (which had to be sourced from a battered 16mm master) or just buy the Criterion Late Spring blu when it comes out.

[MichaelB]

But the BFI "work on" the Criterion transfers for their Ozu releases at least in some cases, right? This DigitalFix review claims that the BFI boosted contrast slightly on the Late Spring transfer and completed "further picture and audio restoration." Granted, differences between the two, if there are any, are likely to be very slight.

As with Red Desert and The Leopard, Criterion and the BFI do their own grading and sometimes apply their own digital restoration, but given the common print and telecine source the similarities are likely to be more marked than the differences.

If I remember rightly from a chat with the Ozu series' first technical supervisor, the BFI's policy was to keep digital clean-up to a minimum: you're never going to get pristine copies of some of these titles, and trying to create one artificially is fraught with all sorts of ethical pitfalls.

[manicsounds]

Really didn't expect this one to come out, I would have expected Shochiku to release their own Blu-ray before any news of a US release. It also seems like an interesting choice for a Hidef release, knowing the condition of the print used on the DVD release.

[artfilmfan]

IMHO, Late Spring is Ozu's best and most perfect film. Therefore, it makes sense to be chosen as their first Ozu Blu-ray. For those who are new to Ozu, if they get hooked by Late Spring, they will seek out more of his films.

This is our last chance for getting a good English-friendly release of this wonderful film (one of the best films ever made). I hope Criterion will reduce the brightness to make the picture look more pleasing. Their DVD and the BFI releases look awful (over-exposed) in some of the scenes (as an example, see screen capture #3 at DVDBeaver). I hope Criterion reads this.

[MichaelB]

If I remember rightly from a chat with the Ozu series' first technical supervisor, the BFI's policy was to keep digital clean-up to a minimum: you're never going to get pristine copies of some of these titles, and trying to create one artificially is fraught with all sorts of ethical pitfalls.

To update my own post, I've since had another chat and this is the position.

The BFI used the following masters from Criterion: An Autumn Afternoon, Early Summer, Equinox Flower, Late Spring, The Only Son, There Was A Father, Tokyo Story. Of these, the BFI did additional grading and cleanup on An Autumn Afternoon and Equinox Flower, but left the others alone - so you're seeing the Criterion HD masters exactly as supplied (after compression as a by-product of encoding).

Good Morning and Late Autumn were taken from new HD masters, created from materials supplied directly from Shochiku - and the SD-only titles also came direct from Shochiku.

In all cases, these were the highest quality masters available at the time - so whether Criterion's Late Spring Blu-ray differs significantly from the BFI equivalent will largely depend on whether they're happy with their existing master or whether they've created a new one in the two years since it was licensed. My former colleague reckons that it's probably more likely that they'll work from the existing HD master and possibly try to give it additional digital restoration work, because he's not aware of any 35mm materials of Late Spring in existence that are superior to the ones used to create the master in the first place.

Tokyo Story is a different matter, as it's undergone a new restoration since the BFI disc was released, and Criterion may well be waiting to see what that looks like - hence their decision to make the possibly less commercially attractive Late Spring their first Ozu Blu-ray.

[kinjitsu]

DVDBeaver on the BD

[aox]

Excellent.

The CC and BFI are almost identical, but as the review states and the caps clearly show, the CC shows much less damage than the BFI.

[Michael Kerpan]

I'd rarther have Only Son as an extra than Tokyo Ga. ;~}

Judging from the screen captures (risky, I know), it looks to me that CC's damage repair may have softened the image (example -- it is much easier to read the name on the beach underneath the Coca-Cola sign in the BFI capture). I'll trad e a little damage for a bit extra sharpness, but that's just me.

[aox]

That seems to me to be more of a contrast issue in that particular instance. But I may not have the best eyes.

[Michael Kerpan]

In at least some respects (such as no contrast over-boosting), the original Shochiku DVD release still is probably best (save for only Japanese subtitles).

[manicsounds]

Although they fixed that vertical line, looks like the other screencaps have the same damage marks as before. I wonder what they did, if anything to the wavy whiteness (I don't know how to describe it well) during the last 20 minutes. Also, it isn't mentioned, but is Tokyo Ga also in 1080p?

[CSM126]

I'd be surprised if it isn't at least 1080i.

[JonasEB]

Although they fixed that vertical line, looks like the other screencaps have the same damage marks as before. I wonder what they did, if anything to the wavy whiteness (I don't know how to describe it well) during the last 20 minutes. Also, it isn't mentioned, but is Tokyo Ga also in 1080p?

Yeah, other than the line in the bike ride sequence it looks like they simply filtered the image to make the damage less visible. The most revealing caps in the comparison are the Noh performers (their faces, and take a look at the guy on the far right - the pattern on his hat is far more distinct and visible in the BFI, it's just a blur on the Criterion) and the shots with bushes and trees in them. Damage like this isn't worth digitizing away when it softens the image.

The sharper BFI sells itself but a 1080p edition of The Only Son really is a far more valuable extra than the Wenders documentary.

[manicsounds]

Blu-ray.com review says "Tokyo Ga" is indeed 1080i upscaled

[perkizitore]

I already have Tokyo Ga from the R2 Wim Wenders doc set, so the commentary alone is not enough for me to double dip.

[manicsounds]

I already have Tokyo Ga from the R2 Wim Wenders doc set, so the commentary alone is not enough for me to double dip.

To make you feel like you're missing out some more, the US R1 Wim Wenders Anchor Bay boxset has a Wim Wenders commentary track (over his 'original' narration)

[perkizitore]

Still, two commentaries< The Only Son in 1080p

[Drucker]

I saw this film in a print today as 3-weeks of Ozu kicked off at Film Forum. Before today, I'd only seen Tokyo Story (four years ago) and Early Summer. I re-read this thread just now, and have to agree that the films were enjoyable with one viewing, but there is certainly much I must've missed by not having given them a second chance.

Late Spring on the other hand hit me very hard, today. The nuance of the film was often hard to detect, and I found myself missing things even in a theatrical setting. I think what might have helped though is the relatively smaller cast of characters and plot compared to the other two films. In Tokyo Story, there are three generations of stories happening. Here, the interaction focuses on two characters primarily, and while there might be some details of the divorced friend or the aunt that I missed, it didn't seem to impair my following, and thus enjoying the story.

my kevyip is about 30 films strong, and i need to plough through a ton of films on my DVR before I move this month and lose them all as I lose my cable box, but I suspect before long I will be charting down the path of Ozu in earnest and going through his films. I can't wait.

I would like to leave one note however, about the look of the film. Certainly it was a beat-up and old print, but I didn't think it was as comically rough as the one described on this board that was screened of Testament of Dr. Mabuse at Film Forum last quarter. Truth be told, the screenshots of the blu and DVD really do appear to look like what I saw today. There are some really, surprisingly dark scenes. The wedding scene features an incredibly bright white dress, honestly. As I've said before I'm not a technical whiz at all and hardly notice many of the technical grievances aired on this board, but I would honestly say what I see on DVDbeaver/bluray.com screenshots reflects what I saw today.

[teddyleevin]

I would like to leave one note however, about the look of the film. Certainly it was a beat-up and old print, but I didn't think it was as comically rough as the one described on this board that was screened of Testament of Dr. Mabuse at Film Forum last quarter.

Ah, yes. That was my "comically rough" description. I didn't get to catch Late Spring, but I did see Early Spring last night. It was a Janus print, far afield from the rustic print with the British advisory warning at the beginning of Film Forum's Mabuse. The print for Early was beat-up and obviously very old (exactly as you describe yours), with the most obtrusive damage (visual and aural) happening in the final yards of the final reel, (the reel changes were intermittently messy, but not appalling). I'm sure a more well known film like Late would probably have had a better print.

Like the Mabuse, there were parts left unsubtitled, mostly greetings and affirmations, but occasionally more-than-brief responses that left me in the dark. Was this the case with the Late Spring print? (And are these the translations on the Criterion releases? Don't have my Eclipse set on me to compare, but the CriterionCast review of Early Spring quotes lines I remember from last night). Will try to hit up a few more of these screenings before the run ends, but interested to see the scope of the quality in prints for this retrospective. They probably got a good package deal out of getting so many films from the same distributors. Certainly far better than their 1933 retrospective, which must have been a headache to program and acquire for given the diversity and age.

As far as representation and accuracy go, the B&W prints are, based on your our testimonies, perfect representationally. I didn't get to see any of the color films, which are known for their debates on color accuracy on DVD, so it will be interesting to get a compare and contrast on those, as well.

[Drucker]

I would like to leave one note however, about the look of the film. Certainly it was a beat-up and old print, but I didn't think it was as comically rough as the one described on this board that was screened of Testament of Dr. Mabuse at Film Forum last quarter.

Ah, yes. That was my "comically rough" description. I didn't get to catch Late Spring, but I did see Early Spring last night. It was a Janus print, far afield from the rustic print with the British advisory warning at the beginning of Film Forum's Mabuse. The print for Early was beat-up and obviously very old (exactly as you describe yours), with the most obtrusive damage (visual and aural) happening in the final yards of the final reel, (the reel changes were intermittently messy, but not appalling). I'm sure a more well known film like Late would probably have had a better print.

Like the Mabuse, there were parts left unsubtitled, mostly greetings and affirmations, but occasionally more-than-brief responses that left me in the dark. Was this the case with the Late Spring print? (And are these the translations on the Criterion releases? Don't have my Eclipse set on me to compare, but the CriterionCast review of Early Spring quotes lines I remember from last night). Will try to hit up a few more of these screenings before the run ends, but interested to see the scope of the quality in prints for this retrospective. They probably got a good package deal out of getting so many films from the same distributors. Certainly far better than their 1933 retrospective, which must have been a headache to program and acquire for given the diversity and age.

As far as representation and accuracy go, the B&W prints are, based on your our testimonies, perfect representationally. I didn't get to see any of the color films, which are known for their debates on color accuracy on DVD, so it will be interesting to get a compare and contrast on those, as well.

Yeah I was tempted to see a color film, but I was at the tail end of my vacation the day they showed Late Spring so it was just the most convenient.

Everything you said I agree with. There were definitely a few exchanges left un-subbed. The one constant is that if a phrase got repeated ("oh yea?" "yeah" "yeah?" "yeah"...something to that effect), the first time it was said it was subbed, but it wouldn't be after that.

And there is talk earlier in this thread about subtitles during the concert they go to: the song was definitely not subtitled, which apparently contrasts with the Criterion release.

[teddyleevin]

And there is talk earlier in this thread about subtitles during the concert they go to: the song was definitely not subtitled, which apparently contrasts with the Criterion release.

Similarly, during the scene in Early Spring when a soprano's voice lesson is heard in the background, she sings Sempre Libera from La Traviata (felt extra apt, as FF just screened Becoming Traviata. The lyrics of the aria add a layer of depth to the scene that anyone unfamiliar with the text or scenario of the opera wouldn't have gotten (or maybe Ozu would prefer it only working with the in crowd. Would have been hard to translate it all as most of the aria is sung under dialogue, but I wonder if any subtitles of Early Spring made any reference to the aria (a Japanese language subtitle for the hard of hearing would be most likely possibility, as the aria is more a sound effect than a centerpiece). The Early Spring subtitles also left out the military song sung at the war buddies reunion, and the song sung that has the same tune as Auld Lang Syne (and may very well be a translation of the English lyrics but I couldn't tell), and I wish I could have understood them both.

Why leave these out? Especially in the moments where the singing is the main focus. Is it too hard to make out? I presume these subtitles are often transcriptions (unless the screenplay survives) or adaptations of older translations? It's a business that I know too little about. Potential tangent: There seems to be an attitude that "newer" translations means "better." Certainly, I've seen cases where newer ones are more complete, but is there any reason to believe that we're getting better at translating and subtitling from a technical standpoint? Or is it just that tastes have changed, and we're more willing to translate directly instead of poetically?

[Michael Kerpan]

I took a look at the Japanese scripts of some of Ozu's films -- and song lyrics did not seem to be in the scripts (Alas, I no longer recall which songs I looked for).

[hearthesilence]

MoMA is premiering a new restoration of Late Spring at their To Save and Project Festival the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.

According to the link, "This will be the first American screening of a major new digital restoration of the film, which was carried out by Cineric in New York City under the sponsorship of the Shochiku Company." However, their pre-screening preview cards during the restoration festival add that it is a new 4k restoration.

[andyli]

Yes. A Japanese blu-ray is due out in December.