But this is Django's movie though. It's called "Django Unchained," so everything in the narrative (including Dr. Schultz's, who is an awesome supporting character and one of Tarantino's most fleshed-out creations to date but it's not his movie, it's Django's) has to not only come back to Django but to the "Unchained" part, which is basically the entre 2nd half of the movie when Schultz and Django hatch their plan to meet Candie. It's a long and slow burn, and though Jamie Foxx started the movie as a cypher his grip on the character got better and better as the narrative kept going , to the point that when Django takes over the narrative I'm OK with it. Kerry Washington is the only main character that's literally given nothing to do except being a living, breathing McGuffin, but even I cheered loudly along with the theater whencriterion10 wrote:And your mention of a narrative flaw with Django's character is something that I would say Inglourious Basterds has a problem with as well, that being that the Basterds are largely absent throughout the middle of the film, and there are many members of the group that we never even get to meet nor find out their fate.
Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
- dad1153
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Django comes back for Broomhilda and just says 'It's me, baby.'
Last edited by dad1153 on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Maybe Tarantino could have made everyone happy
Spoiler
by keeping Waltz in every frame of the film following his death, guiding Django along like a jovial German Obi-Wan Kenobi.
- mfunk9786
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Christoph Unchained
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criterion10
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Well, if you do look at it as being Django's movie, then I have to criticize Tarantino for not making Django as prominent of a character as was needed. I liked his character very much actually, but it wasn't fleshed out enough for his eventual "take over" of the narrative.dad1153 wrote:But this is Django's movie though. It's called "Django Unchained," so everything in the narrative (including Dr. Schultz's, who is an awesome supporting character and one of Tarantino's most fleshed-out creations to date but it's not his movie, it's Django's) has to not only come back to Django but to the "Unchained" part, which is basically the entre 2nd half of the movie when Schultz and Django hatch their plan to meet Candie. It's a long and slow burn, and though Jamie Foxx started the movie as a cypher his grip on the character got better and better as the narrative kept going , to the point that when Django takes over the narrative I'm OK with it.
Spoiler
As I kind of already stated, the movie worked best for me with Waltz being the prominent, showy character, with Django supporting him as a more subdued character. That's why it bothered me when Waltz was killed so suddenly. His death was treated as if his character wasn't even all that important. And yes, I do know that this is Django's movie and his revenge story and whatnot, but this is just personally how I felt.
- mfunk9786
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
I think it's your problem here. He was fleshed out, but in order for the character to have the proper arc. We can't expect a slave to be this incredibly witty quick-gun right out of his chains when Waltz's character frees him - Tarantino recognizes the insincerity of that even within his sandbox. The idea of the movie is that we watch Django move from the position of sidekick to hero in what feels like an earned and natural way. Giving him more pizazz to get your attention early on would be an empty gesture and would detract from the film's narrative strengths.
Spoiler
You weren't ready to let Waltz go at that moment in the story, but Django was. He had to be.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
One more point:
Also, having Django return to Schultz's corpse to reverently wish him "Auf wiedersehen" after the script has made a point of touching on the significance of this phrase was plenty emotional pay off for me.
Spoiler
That thing between Django and Hildy isn't just a "romance." It's the healing of a marriage torn apart for years by the cruel whim of an evil man. Kind of a big deal.criterion10 wrote:that to me was the thematic crux of the story, not the romance surrounding Django and his wife. Therefore, to simply kill off one of the most important characters of the film without any emotional pay off...
Also, having Django return to Schultz's corpse to reverently wish him "Auf wiedersehen" after the script has made a point of touching on the significance of this phrase was plenty emotional pay off for me.
- mfunk9786
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
I hadn't noticed that touch, Swo. This really is Tarantino's tidiest script yet.
- cdnchris
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
swo17 wrote:Spoiler
Also, having Django return to Schultz's corpse to reverently wish him "Auf wiedersehen" after the script has made a point of touching on the significance of this phrase was plenty emotional pay off for me.
Spoiler
Exactly. My wife even let out a genuine "awwww" and turned to me to say "they'll meet again" so the scene did give that emotional pay off.
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criterion10
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
I don't know. That ending still isn't right to me. Guess I'm in the minority.
For all the complaining I've done here though, I didn't hate the movie by any means. Actually, I was really into it right up until the final 25 minutes or so. I thought the first hour was simply great entertainment (watching Christoph Waltz as a bounty hunter was awesome), and then the next hour or so with Leo was great as well. I personally liked the lengthy dialogue sequences and felt that they were relevant to both the development of the plot and the characters. I also thought Tarantino did a good job by making his usual homages to the genre without going too far overboard.
If Tarantino was to have fixed that ending, he would've had a great film on his hands. To me, at least.
For all the complaining I've done here though, I didn't hate the movie by any means. Actually, I was really into it right up until the final 25 minutes or so. I thought the first hour was simply great entertainment (watching Christoph Waltz as a bounty hunter was awesome), and then the next hour or so with Leo was great as well. I personally liked the lengthy dialogue sequences and felt that they were relevant to both the development of the plot and the characters. I also thought Tarantino did a good job by making his usual homages to the genre without going too far overboard.
If Tarantino was to have fixed that ending, he would've had a great film on his hands. To me, at least.
- mfunk9786
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
*rimshot*criterion10 wrote:Guess I'm in the minority.
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Grand Illusion
- Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
The film definitely shows off Tarantino's strengths as a post-modern humorist and performance director. This might be DiCaprio's best work ever. Waltz is such a natural with Tarantino's words and his own comic timing. Foxx is understated, but does good work. There are a great number of bits (like Django's original clothing choice) while also showing the horrors of slavery.
Tarantino manages a great balancing act, and this is where his cinematic ultraviolence really works to his benefit. In huge shoot-outs, the violence is free and over-the-top, but realism is deployed in several scenes depicting the abhorrent violence of the South, such as:
The mix in styles does an excellent job of informing the audience when the filmmaker is being more serious in his intent and depiction.
Unfortunately, the film does show Tarantino's weakness as a dramatist. He has problems tying everything together narratively (recalling Inglourious Basterd's two main plot threads never truly intersecting in any meaningful way.) The third act of Django is a mess.
Overall, I really enjoyed Django Unchained. I laughed a lot and had a great time at the movies. But the dramatic divebomb of the third act really hurts my impression of the film.
Tarantino manages a great balancing act, and this is where his cinematic ultraviolence really works to his benefit. In huge shoot-outs, the violence is free and over-the-top, but realism is deployed in several scenes depicting the abhorrent violence of the South, such as:
Spoiler
the forced fights to the death, the man being torn apart by dogs, and even the sores on Django's ankles when his shackles are removed.
Unfortunately, the film does show Tarantino's weakness as a dramatist. He has problems tying everything together narratively (recalling Inglourious Basterd's two main plot threads never truly intersecting in any meaningful way.) The third act of Django is a mess.
Spoiler
There are some major problems with the $1200 deal. That Calvin Candie is able to simply remove the $1200 from the dentist's wallet is way too easy. In fact, there are still bills in the wallet. So the film is saying that, despite this entire plot to infiltrate Candie Land, Schultz and Django could've just afforded to buy Brünnhilde at anytime.
What would be dramatically more interesting is if Schultz and Django could not afford to purchase Brünnhilde. But instead of the narrative being a life-and-death struggle, it just becomes one of pride over a few bills. Tarantino does not set the right stakes for this conflict.
Everything after the shootout feels like rushed storytelling. Disposing of Candie really dissipates the vengeance plot, and instead muddies Django's quest. Of course, it's all about Brunhilda, but shifting the clear antagonist to Steven's Uncle Tom, is weak dramatically and questionable symbolically. Those looking for problematic elements could ask if Tarantino is implying that the true villains were the blacks who tried to get in the best position with their white slavers rather than the whites themselves.
Worse than the villain-shifting, there are not one, but two (!), musical montages, back-to-back, which rush Django back to action and to a truncated rescue of Brünnhilde. I'd have to think that were Sally Menke still alive, she wouldn't have let those pass, nor the constant amateurish flashbacks throughout the duration. Further, the Australian scene is among the weakest in the film, and the final scene of vengeance is just dramatically inert. There is no obstacle to Django, and without Candie, nobody takes the reins.
What would be dramatically more interesting is if Schultz and Django could not afford to purchase Brünnhilde. But instead of the narrative being a life-and-death struggle, it just becomes one of pride over a few bills. Tarantino does not set the right stakes for this conflict.
Everything after the shootout feels like rushed storytelling. Disposing of Candie really dissipates the vengeance plot, and instead muddies Django's quest. Of course, it's all about Brunhilda, but shifting the clear antagonist to Steven's Uncle Tom, is weak dramatically and questionable symbolically. Those looking for problematic elements could ask if Tarantino is implying that the true villains were the blacks who tried to get in the best position with their white slavers rather than the whites themselves.
Worse than the villain-shifting, there are not one, but two (!), musical montages, back-to-back, which rush Django back to action and to a truncated rescue of Brünnhilde. I'd have to think that were Sally Menke still alive, she wouldn't have let those pass, nor the constant amateurish flashbacks throughout the duration. Further, the Australian scene is among the weakest in the film, and the final scene of vengeance is just dramatically inert. There is no obstacle to Django, and without Candie, nobody takes the reins.
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Grand Illusion
- Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
I'm more satisfied that others have raised the issue, more than I am with his post-rationalization. I'm not saying his rationalization doesn't make sense. It kinda does, but even were the plan to be completely part-and-parcel of Schultz's character, then it's still poor dramatic writing. Nothing is saying his character has to be that way, except the writer himself.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:49 pm
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
There is evidence that that character is that way though vis what we are shown of his character (the elaborate way he buys Django just to start with) and the personal history he is shown to have had (an anti-slavery German from this period who was good with guns was probably involved with 1848).
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Frumaster
- Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:03 pm
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
I think I would have enjoyed this movie a lot more if some of the shooting scenes were reduced. I love spaghetti westerns but you never see this level of violence throughout. The effect was lost on me after a while and during some of the shootouts I just wanted the next scene to begin already. For instance,
Overall I really enjoyed this film, the script, the performances, etc...but it is no Inglorious Basterds. I guess I set myself up to be a bit disappointed. In a perfect world Django is released before Basterds.
Spoiler
When Django shoots all of the familiar characters in the house after Waltz gets shot, was it really necessary to have 15 more guys rush in!? What did that add? This is not appropriate like it was in Kill Bill with the crazy 88.
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 3:26 am
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Spoiler
It's far from a weakness in the writing that Schultz's killing of Candie comes not out of self defense or in protection of anyone else, but out of a genuine choice between letting things stay and refusing to make a deal with the devil. If it was a simple matter of Schultz not having the money, or an immediate way to remove the threat to Broomhilda, it would be far less interesting, dramatically- the whole end of the movie, the whole thing the movie is building up for, is a genuine rejection of the whole system, at any cost to one's self.
Likewise, Django riding on Candieland isn't in vengeance- it's an assault, and as such he destroys it far beyond anything necessary just to save his wife. It's something I think the movie does particularly well, honestly.
Likewise, Django riding on Candieland isn't in vengeance- it's an assault, and as such he destroys it far beyond anything necessary just to save his wife. It's something I think the movie does particularly well, honestly.
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Frumaster
- Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:03 pm
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
I love the whole Wotan/Siegfried/Brunnhilde reference. Waltz's character, whether he intends it or realizes it (I think he does by the end), has the purpose of giving slaves an inspiring mythology of their own.matrixschmatrix wrote:Spoiler
Killing Waltz off is like, the thing that lets Django take center stage and become a more fully developed character (and also to fulfill the whole Siegfried thing.)
Spoiler
Think of the wagon of slaves at the end watching Django ride off with tears in their eyes.
And of course there is another level on which all of this holds - afterall, why is Tarantino making such a film?
- gcgiles1dollarbin
- Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:38 am
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Perhaps not "off" so much as poorly selected. I long for the surprise of the pop-song counterpoint to imagery, creating the kind of vicious irony I first noticed in Goodfellas when the piano coda in "Layla" plays over the exhibition of bodies. In that case, it's a period song, and when Tarantino jumps all over that contrast in Reservoir Dogs (Stealers Wheel over ear mutilation), it had the diegetic logic of being overheard on the radio during K-Billy's Super Sounds of the '70s. I liked the counterpoint of imagery and music, because it flew in the face of all the sugary nostalgic soundtracks that encrusted films like Stand by Me and The Big Chill. And no one can deny the thrill of hearing "Misirlou" over the opening credits of Pulp Fiction, period-be-damned. But the K-Tel record in Django Unchained is weirdly disparate, compounding the episodic feel of the film on the whole. I can almost get behind Jim Croce during the mountain montage, but even though I love Richie Havens' "Motherless Child" improvisation, I think Tarantino is relying too much on the power of that amazing performance for the scene's impact (regardless of the fact that it has relevance through its source as a traditional spiritual dating from that period). And then Johnny Cash, James Brown, Tupac, etc.--it was a spastic hit parade with very little threading it together (aside from the fact that we have African Americans to thank for virtually every form of pop/folk music enjoyed in the U.S. today). I want the image to re-define the song in some way in order to justify the song's inclusion; otherwise, it's just one more Big Chill soundtrack. For example, I'll never hear "Hurdy Gurdy Man" the same way after its sinister use in Zodiac... yikes. (OK, I'll be honest: I never heard that song the same way after the Butthole Surfers version in 1991.)Kellen wrote:Maybe it's just me personally but the film felt like it jumped around a bit and some of the music placement was off.
- oldsheperd
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
I've been trying to convince my Dad to go see this with me, but he was so turned off by Basterds that he adamantly refuses.
Oh well.
I've been arguing with some others about Tarantino on another forum. One poster said Tarantino's output will truly cannonize him as an artist while Wes and PT Anderson's work will fade away. He also said Tarantino will be considered great and placed side by side with the likes of Kubrick and others of that caliber. It's an apples and oranges comparison, but I've never considered Tarantino a top tier artistic filmmaker. He has an established formula that he works within and it works most of the time.
I see Tarantino as more of a John Waters' type filmmaker. His stuff is enjoyable, but he really can't move outside of his formula. Tarantino's not a risk taker and his output surely proves the mantra "If it ain't broke don't fix it."
Oh well.
I've been arguing with some others about Tarantino on another forum. One poster said Tarantino's output will truly cannonize him as an artist while Wes and PT Anderson's work will fade away. He also said Tarantino will be considered great and placed side by side with the likes of Kubrick and others of that caliber. It's an apples and oranges comparison, but I've never considered Tarantino a top tier artistic filmmaker. He has an established formula that he works within and it works most of the time.
I see Tarantino as more of a John Waters' type filmmaker. His stuff is enjoyable, but he really can't move outside of his formula. Tarantino's not a risk taker and his output surely proves the mantra "If it ain't broke don't fix it."
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 3:26 am
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
I dunno, he seems more comparable to Hitchcock to me- the genre slickness at the surface belies the surprising depths of his work, and while his work is self similar enough that it's always instantly recognizable, there's a fair amount of variation within it. Though it seems insane to me to assume Andersons Wes and P.T. will fade away any time soon- you could make a case for a Jim Jarmusch, say, but the Wes Anderson's aesthetic is incredibly influential (as is Tarantino's) and P.T. Anderson is maybe the best working American filmmaker right now.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:49 pm
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Is Wes Anderson's style really influential though? It strikes me that he is simply the most prominent filmmaker within that style and that many people who were inspired by the same sort of people (Hal Ashby, Tati, Aki Kaurismaki, etc) came up around the same time.
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 3:26 am
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Sure- I can see pieces of it showing up all over TV (Arrested Development, Pushing Daisies, Bored to Death), in Rian Johnson's work (The Brothers Bloom, in particular) and all over the place in Old Navy ads and what have you
Last edited by matrixschmatrix on Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:49 pm
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Outside of Johnson's work and Bored to Death I'm not sure if I'd call those Anderson inspired at least in the same way Tarantino clearly has inspired a lot of stuff.
- oldsheperd
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Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Anderson's understanding of frame composition is amazing! He's up thee with Kurosawa and Lynch.knives wrote:Is Wes Anderson's style really influential though? It strikes me that he is simply the most prominent filmmaker within that style and that many people who were inspired by the same sort of people (Hal Ashby, Tati, Aki Kaurismaki, etc) came up around the same time.
I've never thought that there's anything too substantial about Tarantino. I guess he is like Hitchcock in that he's a master craftsman, but Tarantino's skill lies in his characters the most. Hitchcock's characters are basically devices to further the narrative.
But has Tarantino been all that inspirational. The narrative construction of Pulp Fiction was a pretty strong influence, but I really don't see much else. If anything, Tarantino inspired a new genre of exploitation films crafted to ride his coat tails. Something that he ironically was inspired by to create his "original" works.knives wrote:Outside of Johnson's work and Bored to Death I'm not sure if I'd call those Anderson inspired at least in the same way Tarantino clearly has inspired a lot of stuff.
I mean if there's one thing Tarantino had a hand in inspiring it would definitely be hipster-ism which is like saying the Beatles inspired Charles Manson.
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 3:26 am
Re: Django Unchained (Quentin Tarantino, 2012)
Really? The connection from Royal Tenenbaums to Arrested Development seems pretty clear, in the character work and the use of color as well as the narrator and the underlying plot stuff.knives wrote:Outside of Johnson's work and Bored to Death I'm not sure if I'd call those Anderson inspired at least in the same way Tarantino clearly has inspired a lot of stuff.