Doc Criterion's Olde Tyme Western Films, Saloon & Livery Stable

[movielocke]

On a film print liberty valence is surprisingly dull, flat soft lighting, very studioish, kinda television quality of light. The film is so great though.

I remember being shocked that photography was so much weaker compared to prints of stagecoach, valley, clementine or wrath that I'd seen before.

[Roger Ryan]

...I remember being shocked that photography was so much weaker compared to prints of stagecoach, valley, clementine or wrath that I'd seen before.

Well, Director of Photography William H. Clothier wasn't really in the same league as Bert Glennon, Arthur C. Miller or Joseph MacDonald, let alone Gregg Toland. Ford may have maintained a sense of screen composition throughout his work, but he almost certainly let his DPs handle the lighting. VALANCE is filled with very standard studio lighting, but lighting that makes little sense in a period western (these rooms, stables and print offices should be illuminated by light coming from windows, doorways and lamps, not high-intensity "kicker" lights shooting down from above the frame).

[swo17]

For what it's worth, the discussion starting here is what I was remembering about foreign releases of Liberty Valance.

[knives]

...I remember being shocked that photography was so much weaker compared to prints of stagecoach, valley, clementine or wrath that I'd seen before.

Well, Director of Photography William H. Clothier wasn't really in the same league as Bert Glennon, Arthur C. Miller or Joseph MacDonald, let alone Gregg Toland. Ford may have maintained a sense of screen composition throughout his work, but he almost certainly let his DPs handle the lighting. VALANCE is filled with very standard studio lighting, but lighting that makes little sense in a period western (these rooms, stables and print offices should be illuminated by light coming from windows, doorways and lamps, not high-intensity "kicker" lights shooting down from above the frame).

Going to have to disagree with you there. He's one of my faves with a surprisingly good eye given the quality of films he usually worked on. If you haven't seen it already check out The Man in the Vault. It's a fairly average noir, but what Clotheir brings to it is amazing at times convincing that it is far better than it actually is.

[kingofthejungle]

Yeah, Clothier was pretty good. Remember, he also lensed The Horse Soldiers, Donovan's Reef, and Cheyenne Autumn for Ford, so the look of Liberty Valance is most likely exactly what Ford requested. IIRC, Ford said that he wanted the sets and general look of the film to recall the stripped-down aesthetic of silent b-westerns - it's as much a meta-commentary on the role of the western film as popular myth as it is about the old west.

[aox]

The Ox-Bow Incident, The Great Silence, and Liberty Valance are dream releases for me.

[DimitriL]

FWIW, Monte Hellman posted on Facebook a few minutes ago that he just saw the artwork for the Criterion Westerns box, and that it's gorgeous.

I'm late to this discussion, but did anyone know this was coming?

[domino harvey]

We knew at least two of his Western titles were coming, yes, but "box" seems to indicate more than two films which would be (welcome) news

[swo17]

We already had this discussion and dismissed that possibility.

[DimitriL]

Monte also just commented on extras:

"Interviews with Millie Perkins, Harry Dean Stanton, Will Hutchins, Roger Corman, John Hackett, B.J. Merholz, Gary Kurtz and "the last cowboy" -- Calvin Johnson. Video essay on Warren Oates."

[domino harvey]

People who know: Do all those actors match up with the two films we know about?

[swo17]

Unhelpfully, all of those actors are in all of Hellman's films.

[Altair]

I would also like to voice support for William H. Clothier! Apart from the titles already mention, he photographed Sam Fuller's Merrill's Marauders (which is criminally underrated and needs to be seen on Blu) and Sam Peckinpah's very fine first film, The Deadly Companions. Although he shot a lot of mediocre '60s Westerns that were very Hollywood and lacked the bite of the contemporaneous Spaghetti Westerns, they nevertheless looked very good, even if that's all there is to recommend some of those films.

[Roger Ryan]

My apologies for denigrating the work of Mr. Clothier. It was unfair to assess his entire body of work in comparison to other cinematographers, especially when the differences may come down to a matter of taste. In attempting to identify a reason why "movielocke" would be disappointed in the look of VALANCE compared to some of Ford's earlier films, I went for the obvious answer that Clothier was not the one who had shot those exceptionally good-looking earlier films.

Cinematography fashions change over time and the look of a film from 1948 may, subjectively, be more appealing than one from 1962 even though the DP is the same. Also, one can't discount varying shooting conditions, budgets, director input, etc. I will stand by my opinion that the more naturalistic, motivated lighting found in WRATH, VALLEY or CLEMENTINE is preferable over the "high key" look of VALANCE...but, in truth, I've never been too bothered by the lighting in VALANCE and don't consider it any kind of major flaw!

[Yaanu]

Fresh from Facebook.
The comments suggest that it's "The Shooting".

[jedgeco]

Fresh from Facebook.
The comments suggest that it's "The Shooting".

Not familiar with the film, but it does say "SHOOTING_" on the red screen.

[merzbau]

We already know they're doing Hellman's Westerns, though I guess it's nice to have a confirmation. If they're still doing work on the transfers, I guess that puts it at the very least a few months into 2015?

[Koukol]

I hate to be too greedy but I hope Criterion puts out CHINA 9 LIBERTY 37 as well.

[Kokomo Blues]

The logo for these should be a branded lazy C

[captveg]

The logo for these should be a branded lazy C

And come with a 3 3/4" Will Ferrell Old Prospector figurine.

[beamish13]

I hate to be too greedy but I hope Criterion puts out CHINA 9 LIBERTY 37 as well.

Still held by WB, who have promised an Archive release. They actually put some effort into restoring it recently, but they screwed up
the soundtrack and had to go back to the drawing board. Beautifully made film, though, and I wish Criterion could get it.