Brokeback Mountain (Ang Lee, 2005)

[marty]

I don't hink it matters whether the actors are gay in real-life or not. They are actors and they assume a plethora of different characters. I think its unrealistic to say that to play a gay character, the actor needs to be gay or the writer needs to be gay. It's like criticising a white man for directing Ray. William Hurt is straight and he was terrific in Kiss of the Spider Woman. However, sometimes it can prove disastrous like Greg Kinnear in As Good as it Gets but it all depends on the skill and talent of the actor rather than whether they actually gay or not.

[Michael]

I agree with you, marty. However, what I was trying to say is to look at the whole picture. There is not one drop of gay blood in Brokeback Mountain. I remember davidhare brought up something about "ownership" earlier on this thread and I would love if davidhare could elaborate on this further. I hope no one is seeing me as being square-minded.. I'm completely willing to keep my mind open to find out why I find Brokeback Mountain to be full of false notes. It doesn't feel "authentic" .. the only word I could come up with right now. Films like Come Undone, Happy Together, and Mysterious Skin make me feel alive as a gay person because it's so TRUE all the way through to the marrow of my bones, the core of my heart.

[David Ehrenstein]

It's like criticising a white man for directing Ray. William Hurt is straight and he was terrific in Kiss of the Spider Woman.

Ah but would you have cast Hurt as Ray ?

Films like Come Undone, Happy Together, and Mysterious Skin make me feel alive as a gay person because it's so TRUE all the way through to the marrow of my bones, the core of my heart.

I agree and would add The Dying Gaul, Mala Noche, and Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train to that list.

[ben d banana]

Ah but would you have cast Hurt as Ray ?

His blackface work is seriously underrated.

[marty]

It's like criticising a white man for directing Ray. William Hurt is straight and he was terrific in Kiss of the Spider Woman.

Ah but would you have cast Hurt as Ray ?

Good one. If all gay people were black, then I would only cast a black person and vice versa.

[Michael]

It's like criticising a white man for directing Ray. William Hurt is straight and he was terrific in Kiss of the Spider Woman.

Ray: Jamie Foxx..that's all they needed.

Kiss of the Spider Woman: Manuel Puig who wrote the fantastic novel was gay.

[marty]

Not being gay myself (which is quite obvious), then can someone who is gay tell me if there are any performances of gay characters by straight actors which are noteworthy or commendable within the gay community and thus deserve their respect.

[Michael]

Reading a bunch of interviews with Wong Kar Wai years ago, he said that Manual Puig's writing inspired him to make Happy Together and this is why he chose Buenos Aires (where Puig was originally from). And along with Leslie, no wonder why he got it right.

[zedz]

Not being gay myself (which is quite obvious), then can someone who is gay tell me if there are any performances of gay characters by straight actors which are noteworthy or commendable within the gay community and thus deserve their respect.

Read back through this very thread to find plenty of good examples.

[Kirkinson]

I'm completely willing to keep my mind open to find out why I find Brokeback Mountain to be full of false notes. It doesn't feel "authentic"

The lack of any gay presence in the production may very well have something to do with it. But most of the heterosexual romances that come out of Hollywood feel just as inauthentic to me as this homosexual romance seems to feel to you, so even without searching for that "drop of gay blood" your reaction is totally understandable.

I just got back from this one and I found it neither exceptionally good nor exceptionally bad. I liked all the acting. The photography was nice. I spent the whole movie silently screaming "shut up!" at the music.

It felt exactly like any other mediocre cinema romance. The last 20 pages of this thread seem devoted to arguing whether or not that's a good thing. I suppose it's possible that someone could come away from this film more accepting of homosexuality, but if they did I expect they would merely be accepting the false idea of it they have in their heads and not the real thing. Everyone else in the theatre seemed to be pretty moved by it.

As far as the movie telling its story as a story without the world outside the theatre, I thought that was pretty lacking as well. Once you know the premise you pretty much have the whole film mapped out inside your head, and the use of music made it seem as if Lee (or the editor, or some producer) didn't trust the actors to get the emotion across. Shame on them, as the acting was my favorite part.

To respond to a couple of other things, yes, I sometimes had trouble understanding Heath Ledger. But having spent time with people in Wyoming and Montana, I have to say it's realistic. I also agree with the sentiments regarding the lack of effort put into aging the two leads. In the later scenes Heath Ledger shares with the girl who is supposed to be his 19-year-old daughter, it looks like he had to have conceived her when he was 6.

Also, a separate Oscar should be secured for the thrilling performance delivered by Anne Hathaway's hair.

[Michael]

Also, a separate Oscar should be secured for the thrilling performance delivered by Anne Hathaway's hair.

That's the best thing about the film. My partner and I commented on her hair more than twice while watching it.

[exte]

If you really wanted the film to fail, you wouldn't mention it or draw attention to it.

You have a completely reductive view of criticism. A negative review doesn't infer that the critic is standing in the theater doorway to block other people from entering.

Perhaps, but aside from the two posts where you've replied to just me, you have 102 posts in this thread alone. Your total post count is 189. You've spent the bulk of your time in this forum on this film's thread. What I'm saying is THAT is saying something! You can claim to be negative about the film, but it seems to me you're pushing the film more than anyone... Am I the only one who thinks this way? Tell me I'm not being illogical here!

I bet when the Oscars come, and this film picks up at least two (my guess), you'll have contributed maybe 250 here, altogether... How will you explain that? Or is this some kind of grassroots climb to the top of the critic world, where one day you hope to be invited on the Ebert show to discuss your feelings on the film...? I mean in all sincerity, how do you explain this? And Matt, I haven't done a thorough search, but this thread has to be one of the longest ever, no? Maybe top ten?

Perhaps my final qualm about this whole thread is the notion of disbelief at the way this film is being marketed. How the whole "it's not gay, it's just love" idea is so outrageous for you and your community... yet, need I remind you of Bush 2004? The guy didn't run on Iraq, but on the thought of gay marriage in this country... and won! Doesn't that tell you something about the state of affairs in this country? Yet you want the Bible belt to be sold a flat out gay cowboy film? Perhaps that's a shitload of worms, and I should bow out entirely here, but I can't help but think of these things whenever the marketing is brought up.... Anyway, that is all...

[Mr Sausage]

How many people listen to their Herbie von Karajan CDs without ever once thinking of his old party connections? He frankly makes me uncomfortable, not least for the megalomania.

*raises hand*

Of course that is bound to happen when you ask rhetorical questions that assume everyone is the same.

Somehow, when listening to Strauss or Beethoven, all political connections, everything without aesthetic value, suddenly drops away as irrelevant and the art takes over. I'm not really interested in using art as a private peep-show into an artist's life. And anything not of aesthetic consideration begins to seem less and less important, a kind of sideline venture.

[HerrSchreck]

[quote="davidhare"]To derail this thread even further - the "politically tarnished" argument needs some going over. How many people listen to their Herbie von Karajan CDs without ever once thinking of his old party connections? He frankly makes me uncomfortable, not least for the megalomania. (And the hugely multi-miked recording techniques are the ultimate in "reconstructed" sound.) ./quote]
Who'll listen to it without thinking of his party connections? People interested in music who know nothing about political history. People who know nothing about political history. People who know nothing about political history. People who know nothing about political history. And of course-- starting with my illustrious president on down-- there are absolutely No People on earth who are ignorant of political history. There is a failsafe switch in the human head whereby you die if you do something as outlandish and radical as Actually Hit Voting Age And Know Nothing About Political History. The really really great thing about us Americans is We honor the Devastatingly Sweeping Power we weild unchallenged across the globe by really really knowing culture. So yes: no regular folk purchased Karajian because, maybe, they wanted A Beethoven Album, and nobody who bought it (certainly not the vast majority looking for simple music) Didn't Know His Party Connections, nor did anybody judge it via Liking The CD Content. They all check the politics while listening, and make adjustments to the visceral heart & soul to modulate the response to the politics resident in the musical notes themselves.

CAN WE CUT TO THE CHASE RIGHT NOW: I wanna know: What is running under the disagreement? You wanta fucking censor his records? You need a new law for that. New laws need the input of wealthy, liverspotted old white men with bad ulcers, whiskybreathing nasty attitudes about Young Girls Fucking and even nastier attitutes about Young Boys Fucking Young Boys Fucking. By the time you finish pronouncing the W (the first one) in "W-what!?", the barn door will have been kicked so far off it's hinges by your friendly senator Whapp Zonk according to your original idea that the season 2005/6 with BBM & Myst. Skin will look like the days of wine & roses. We'll all be watching the sanitized version of Amos & Andy.

I'll say it again and say it slow. You can't do away with freedom in pursuit of freedom. Or cultural perfection. Such pursuits inevitably result in a less perfect culture. Doing away with artworks which offend your sensibility is Adolf Hitler idiocy. You've got to take the good with the bad-- the idiots with your heroes-- so you can have the freedom to speak the real deal about the idiots. Art can be seperate from politics. Did Werner von Braun's party membership (SS member no less) make him a Bad Rocket Scientist? Living Under A Shitty Regime does not necessarily null Talent & Genius. A man may be so cowered in fear that all output is ruined. The Soviets always amazed me because, despite the fear, and the heavy, overbearing instructions to make rediculous prop, the creativity was still so explosive. Yet, as evidence by Hitler, ideological disqualification-processes, no matter the standpoint, never work. You have every right to be angry (though since BBM is pure Hollywood nonsense I don't understand why you're so surprised... whaddaya expect from a pig but a grunt? Didn't get gay male life right? When do they get anything right... when have they even tried? Despite their self-congratulatory idiocy, when was it ever different?), are completely free to be frustrated over the ignorance of other, "better" films, etc... but I really don't understand why a group quite familiar with censorship & oppression would be veering in the direction of censorship, when you know your how your opponent sees you... and how he's just itching for permission to pounce.

Leave the existing films alone. If you're pissed off enough that your viewpoint is not represented-- make a new film. Your own film. Change the playing field by adding to it. Eliminate by making obsolete your opponent.

[HerrSchreck]

A straight woman wrote the short story Brokeback Mountain.

Two straight screenwriters adapted Brokeback Mountain.

A straight man directed Brokeback Mountain.

Two straight actors played the main gay roles.

Apparently no gay presence.. and Brokeback Mountain is a gay story. Doesn't make sense to me.

With all due respect Mike this is the strangest criticism I've ever heard leveled at any film.

What about the fact that they're not real cowboys?

[marty]

Cripes!
But I repeat the mantra: bad art isn't worth wasting the time on, IF we're serious about it.

I think there is art in everything, even in the worse films imaginable.

[HerrSchreck]

Cripes! I dont want to censor anything. Im expressing a feeling that has grown with me over a long time, that Im now old or unwise enough to make decisions like not playing Herbies CDs or watching Birth again for myself. This is surely just common sense.

IN absoluetly the same way I couldnt be bothered watching movies by Kramer or Zinneman because they aren't good enough, and - not least - I dont have enough time in what's left of my life. These decisions are essentially acts of discrimination. And everyone makes them to some
degree or another.

But I repeat the mantra: bad art isn't worth wasting the time on, IF we're serious about it. And totalitarian/fascist "art" is almost universally mediocre or worse. This has absolutely nothing to do with BBM or even the Hollywood system as it exists today except that the same principal of personally based decision making is concerned.

That's different, though. Others keep tangoing dangerously close to the idea of shutting a film down due to non-compliance with certain socio-political graces. That's PC bullshit for weaklings. Many jews truly enjoy & admire Wagner. I do too-- I also love Stravisnky, Rimsky-Korsakov. I wanta hear some music. I know in POETICS OF MUSIC Stravinsky trashed Wagner, but I don't look up the dude because of his politics-- I love his music. I love ethnic jewish music and I love Bavarian fucking oompa biergarten music. I love Indian sitar music, atonal arab music, and own Chinese music for the Erh hu, fiddle & banjo. Yet when listening I could care less for their present causes, communism, religions, etc. I enjoy the music.

That's art as enjoyed by a healthy human. Even social activists need to let it go & go politically blank during moments of meditative pleasure and enjoy the benefits of pure art. BBM should go up or down because it is or not an entertaining fake story.

[Michael]

What about the fact that they're not real cowboys?

Damn. I wish I had bookmarked a site that I came across last month. Several cowboys brought up some complaints that Ennis and Jack aren't real cowboys. They're just shepherds. I thought that was interesting. However I'm not a cowboy and I don't know a thing about being a cowboy so it's not my place to make an objection. I'm more concerned about them not being real gay.

[David Ehrenstein]

I bet when the Oscars come, and this film picks up at least two (my guess), you'll have contributed maybe 250 here, altogether... How will you explain that? Or is this some kind of grassroots climb to the top of the critic world, where one day you hope to be invited on the Ebert show to discuss your feelings on the film...? I mean in all sincerity, how do you explain this?

If you've been paying any attention to what I've written in all these posts then you're aware of the fact that Brokeback has given me and others the opportunity to talk about a host of gay issues, on and off the screen, and reigister formal complaints to the Heterosexual Dictatorship.

Having been a published writer on film, politics and the arts since 1965 the last place I'm interested in appearing is the Ebert & Stupid show.

Perhaps my final qualm about this whole thread is the notion of disbelief at the way this film is being marketed. How the whole "it's not gay, it's just love" idea is so outrageous for you and your community... yet, need I remind you of Bush 2004? The guy didn't run on Iraq, but on the thought of gay marriage in this country... and won! Doesn't that tell you something about the state of affairs in this country? Yet you want the Bible belt to be sold a flat out gay cowboy film?

And guess what -- they're buying!

As for the authenticity question, THERE ARE NO "REAL" COWBOYS!

Cowboys are camp.

[jcelwin]

Ehrenstein's reason for disliking Brokeback Mountain:

the Heterosexual Dictatorship

What about the fact that they're not real cowboys?

=D>

[Mr Sausage]

OK so I was rhetorical. (of course nobody else ever is on this forum, least of all your saucy self.)

Cute, although I remember taking issue with the assumption of your rhetorical question, not censuring you for merely using a rhetorical question. I do not know what this supposed sauciness is, but I am going to ignore it as nonsense.

But the question remains - is there a point at which you can no longer accept this art from this person? I know, but don't share the view of people who refuse to listen to Wagner any more. (It's his family I keep telling myself.) And I am more than happy to watch the collected Riefenstahl any old time (Deadly as I find Triumph to be) but I cannot watch Birth of a Nation. For example. You surely reach a point in your life where the glaringly obvious racism, or sexism or fascism or homophobia of an artist or a project simply becomes unacceptable.

Of course, everyone has their own point where a piece of art becomes unacceptable. In Birth of a Nation the racism is flagrant and clearly part of the aesthetic construction of the piece; it cannot be ignored because it demands your attention. It makes it nigh unwatchable. On the other hand, Karajan's politics, like Wagner's, have little or nothing to do with the actual art work, and do not inform the aesthetics, especially with something like music which is so often non-representational. These are personal lines I would draw. You may choose your own, of course.

This is to say, there are no clear lines for judgement. The most one can hope for is clear reasoning.

And I stick by my comment on fascist art being drek, virtually by definition/prescription - dig out and watch as much Veit Harlan as you can muster. Death defying mediocrity - at best. (Although Anders als Du und Ich/The Third Sex is a totally unintentional hoot. As an atrociously bad film about gay people made by the worst possible sort of straight people, with entirely unintended consequences. Highly recommended. Visit Xploited for details if interested.)

To a point I agree, tho' not because it is specifically fascist. Rather, because the politics become the focus at the sacrifice of the art, which to me makes it tedious, whatever the politics. And plus there is the tendency of the party line to stifle the creative individuality. But I try not to have principles on these sort of things; I take each as it comes and give it a full chance. I take Sam Johnson's advice: clear your mind of cant.

I'll also add a nod to Herr Schrek, his response was very good.

[David Ehrenstein]

(Although Anders als Du und Ich/The Third Sex is a totally unintentional hoot. As an atrociously bad film about gay people made by the worst possible sort of straight people, with entirely unintended consequences. Highly recommended. Visit Xploited for details if interested.)

It's lead actor, the great Conrad Veidt, was gay. And so was Dr.Magnus Hirshfield, who gives a lecture calling for the societal acceptance of gays that concludes the film. That's more than I can say for Brokeback Mountain.

[kinjitsu]

"They're not even cowboys, they're sheep herders. If you can't tell the difference between sheep and cows, how can you tell the difference between men and women?" --Randy Jones

[David Ehrenstein]

The Connie Veit 1919 Magnus Hirschfeld movie is another kettle of fish altogether.

Well that'sthe one I thought you were talking about. Never heard of this one before. Is it a remake?

How telling that the director of Jude Suss should do this.

[Michael]

What about the fact that they're not real cowboys?

There is no comparision between cowboys and gay folks.