Brokeback Mountain (Ang Lee, 2005)

[David Ehrenstein]

absolute fave scene is the pseudo/Stockhausean musique concrete played while teenage boys in sateen underpants do greco roman wrestling.

Sounds like my kind of movie!

Had Brokeback been interested in real cowboys they would have cast Rip Taylor and Bruce Vilanch in the leading roles.

[GringoTex]

What about the fact that they're not real cowboys?

There is no comparision between cowboys and gay folks.

I know- you guys get more movies made about you than we do now. And when we do get one- they turn us into fucking sheep herders!

[Michael]

I'm not sure what you mean, Langlois68. My comment was stated directly to HerrSchreck, the one who brought up the "real cowboy" issue.

[Michael]

Mike, Langlois is cool...

Yep.

The Lusty Men

What a great title. Mitchum, Hayward?! Time to pull out my must-see list.

Did anyone watch the Golden Globes last night? I didn't but my friend did. He was excited about Felicity Huffman winning the best actress prize for Transamerica. He also said that when BBM was being introduced, the clip show didn't contain any reference to the relationship of Ennis and Jack but it still managed to show a chockful of heterosexual kisses, embraces, etc. Must be that awful gay-free trailer that they used.

[zedz]

If only the movie were about class. If you want to see a demonstration of "cowboy culture" at a sublime level you cant go past Nick Ray's The Lusty Men - with Bob Mitchum, Arthur Kennedy and Sue Hayward, its at the peak of this form, and one of Ray's greatest movies!

Seconded: a brilliant film. Even better, make it a double feature with Peckinpah's Junior Bonner (and watch Susan Hayward grow up to become Ida Lupino).

[zedz]

Isn't it interesting, after all the BBM chatter - the theme of love thwarted and denied to Mitchum with such a staggering ending. I really think Hayward is in peak form here actually - can't imagine any other actress (perhaps only Lupino) carrying the part so well.

Absolutely, I think Hayward here and Lupino in Bonner (playing essentially the same character at the other end of her husband's career) both give phenomenal performances: so real and complex. (Now back to the latest installment of Shepherds and Their Wives).

[David Ehrenstein]

He got lost. It was too long in preproduction. originally Faye Dunaway was going to be in it, then she dropped out. River was going to be in it. Then he died.

[GringoTex]

I'm not sure what you mean, Langlois68. My comment was stated directly to HerrSchreck, the one who brought up the "real cowboy" issue.

Yes, I was (facetiously) making your point.

On the subject of real cowboys, I'm convinced McMurtry had nothing to do with this script. I think Diana Ossana has been his ghost writer for years now, and this movie offers further proof. Stupid things started happening once she became his "writing partner." For example, the great nihilist character Duane Moore of The Last Picture Show and Texasville suddenly turns into a Proust-reading, analyst-seeing, organic-gardening bicyclist in the horrid Duane's Depressed. The great women from the first two books (Karla and Jaycee) are killed off.

Ehrenstein is bitching because the two cowboys in Brokeback aren't trying to fuck everything they can, and he has an excellent point. In McMurtry's pre-1996 novels, everybody's trying to fuck anything they can. But once Ossana drops in on the scene, it all stops. I blame her. I mentioned this earlier, but the McMurtry I know and love would have had Randy Quaid show up at Brokeback in a fancy car and take those two gay sheep herders to a swimming pool full of naked men in Witchita Falls, Texas.

[marty]

In McMurtry's pre-1996 novels, everybody's trying to fuck anything they can. But once Ossana drops in on the scene, it all stops. I blame her. I mentioned this earlier, but the McMurtry I know and love would have had Randy Quaid show up at Brokeback in a fancy car and take those two gay sheep herders to a swimming pool full of naked men in Witchita Falls, Texas.

Do all gay films (sorry films with gay characters) have to be hardcore orgies full of sluts giving fellatio to each other? Anything that is slightly subtle or not involving in groupsex gay orgies is given little respect from gay communities. Does everything have to be so hardcore? Many people fall in love without having to even touch another person. Given the commentary in this forum, unless Jake Gylenhall ejaculates all over Heath Ledger then it is considered a soft, heterosexual representation of homosexuality.

[Michael]

marty, you put my name above the quote. I didn't write that. Langlois 68 did. With that vision he created with Randy Quaid and the swimming pool of boys, fuck yeah!

Again marty, you have lots, lots to learn. Really!

Gayly stepping off this merry-go-around for good, I have better, more inspiring things to spend my energy and time on, like savoring Lifshitz' opuses and recommending them to everyone I know around the world. And continuing to discover new films based on endless recommendations from numerous folks in person and online (thanks to David E and davidhare for making me a stronger, happier person). And holding my partner and our blind dog and three domestic parrots abandoned from hurricanes of last year. And a family of close friends.

I've said all I needed to about Brokeback Mountain. Arrivederci!

PS Please don't forget to check my new thread devoted to Sebastien Lifshitz. You might learn a thing or two.

[Grimfarrow]

Do all gay films (sorry films with gay characters) have to be hardcore orgies full of sluts giving fellatio to each other? Anything that is slightly subtle or not involving in groupsex gay orgies is given little respect from gay communities. Does everything have to be so hardcore? Many people fall in love without having to even touch another person. Given the commentary in this forum, unless Jake Gylenhall ejaculates all over Heath Ledger then it is considered a soft, heterosexual representation of homosexuality.

LOGGERHEADS, a film with just as little sex as BROKEBACK, is IMO far superior to the recent GG winner. Just a film about small-town America which is convincing, well-performed and lyrically directed. Too bad it hasn't really been receiving much coverage - a shame, because I really think this film deserves more buzz.

[marty]

marty, you put my name above the quote. I didn't write that. Langlois 68 did. With that vision he created with Randy Quaid and the swimming pool of boys, fuck yeah!

All fixed now. Sorry.

[David Ehrenstein]

To quote Liv Ullmann, and Peter Finch and John Gielgud in the remake of Lost Horizon

-- written by . . . .Larry Kramer.

Do all gay films (sorry films with gay characters) have to be hardcore orgies full of sluts giving fellatio to each other?

Yes.

[Satyajit's Son]

It's great how much has been written about BBM in this thread. Whether you liked it or not you have to admit, it takes a special sort of film to produce so much heated debate in the forum. For what it's worth, I'm straight, I was never a fan of Heath Ledger but I believe that BBM is the by some distance the best film I've seen in years. It's an abolute masterpiece (as good as any other film discussed in this forum. Yes that good!) and a film worthy of all the attention its been getting.

[Michael]

kieslowski_67, have you actually seen Porn Theatre? It finally arrived from netflix. I loved it. I laughed throughout - very funny and uniquely charming. Everyone and the atmosphere inside the sticky porn theater couldn't be more perfect. After working at a gay night club for more than 10 years, I could say that the film's portrayal of the characters - especially the drag divas, the closeteds, the "gay for pay"s, the rough trades etc - is ridiculously accurate, so much that it left my jaws glued to the floor throughout this sheer mind-numbing, nicely crafted film.

[Michael]

David E and davidhare, what's your take on Before Night Falls with Javier Bardem?

[David Ehrenstein]

Not bad, thoiugh dramatically a bit on the slow side. Bardem's good. But I love the great Johnny Depp in his two roles : (1) a brutally homophobic police officer, and (2) a drag queen capable of stashing documents up his ass.

Alan Poul is planning to bring the story of Sylvester -- the Cockettes singing star who became a disco-era legend -- to the big screen. He'll probably go with an unknown for Sylvester, but Depp would be perfect to play Hibiscus.

[Michael]

Thanks, David E. It's been a few years since I watched Before Night Falls and I remember being incredibly impressed, inspired and moved by the film. Reinaldo Arenas = simply a wonderful gay hero.

[Michael]

Let me interject the comment from D. Scott that I just came across on Amazon. It sums up everything I think of Brokeback Mountain:

Utterly objectionable - and not for the reasons you'd think. Vito Russo's classic The Celluloid Closet exhaustively details how Hollywood films time and again deliver the same message about the fate of anyone who engages in "the love that dares not speak (or in the case of Ennis Del Mar, mumble) its name." The heterosexual norm can only be maintained if gay lovers either die or end up miserable and alone. Sound familiar? Brokeback Mountain is hardly any different than outdated films and books such as The Children's Hour, The Victim, The Well of Loneliness or even Cruising -all of which scholars agree remain interesting primarily as documents of society's antiquated and harmful views of homosexuality. Then there's the gay "esthetic" of the movie: a cinematic rendering of the pathetic "straight-acting, no fats, no femmes" personal ad, with more than a touch of sanitized Advocate Men fantasy fiction thrown in for good measure. I thought the real low point came about 3/4s the way through the movie when Jack, rebuffed by Ennis, goes to a third-world, film-noirish Mexico to seek out furtive, shadowy sex on what seems to be a leftover set from Touch of Evil. The year is roughly 1978. Yes, the height of the disco era. I guess a weekend in L.A. or Dallas would have out of the question for him. At this point the movie has its heels so firmly planted in the recidivistic 1950s celluloid closet of its own making, there's simply no hope. The movie does raise some interesting questions however: Were there any gay people involved in the scripting or making of this film? Were there really no gay actors available to play these parts? (Doth I protest too much? Ask yourself this question: how would the public react to a movie about two inner city black girls that was written by Ben Stein and acted by Paris Hilton and Gwyneth Paltrow....) Leaving us finally to deal with message of the movie's sub-plot: closeted gay fathers - in their quests to remain eternal Peter Pans - pose a threat to the institutions of family and marriage. I can't imagine a message we need less right now in America! The hype machines have been in overdrive about how this is a "mainstream" gay film where "A-list" heterosexual actors, writers, authors, etc. are "unafraid" to openly address gay issues. Doesn't that sound suspiciously like kind of self-interested condescension that led recording artists in the `50s with nothing of their own to say to cover the hits of Ray Charles and Little Richard to "sanitize" them for white ears?

[Arcadean]

I read through the entire thread, and had some things to say, but I realized that they were already said several times.

I enjoyed it, I must confess, and so did my mother. However, it is not the "landmark" or masterpiece that many critics are shoving down our throats. The only consistently bad element of the picture that I noticed was the score. I don't completely object to the film itself, but I just don't understand the hype (nor did I understand Million Dollar Baby last year).

[tavernier]

The only consistently bad element of the picture that I noticed was the score.

BBM won a Golden Globe for Best Song....does anyone remember a song?

[ben d banana]

It wasn't in the movie, and if it had it would have been even more out of place than the Steve Earle track. Maybe it was over the credits?

[che-etienne]

The only consistently bad element of the picture that I noticed was the score.

I actually quite liked the score, which had a very restrained quality. I was especially moved by the main theme used most notably at the close of the film.

Also, now that you mention it, I actually find "Million Dollar Baby" and "Brokeback Mountain" to be quite similar films thematically in a way. There might be something to the fact that both the films are about two people reaching out to each other whether in the isolation of the gym or the expansiveness of the great plain... something about striving, and the American Dream etc. Well, something to ruminate on later.

[David Ehrenstein]

something about striving, and the American Dream etc.

If there's "striving for the American Dream," then what's Jack doing in Mexico? And he does this -- mind you -- at the height of the 70's. Why doesn't he go to San Francisco to get laid?

Because the filmmakers and their intended audience (fag-hags, fangurls, and blinkered breeders) have no interest in San Francisco, or anything else connected to the rise of the gay rights movement in this country.

[Doctor Sunshine]

Let me interject the comment from D. Scott that I just came across on Amazon. It sums up everything I think of Brokeback Mountain:

... The heterosexual norm can only be maintained if gay lovers either die or end up miserable and alone...

I think it has more to do with making a social statement, a very similar one to, say, Romeo and Juliet. If Brokeback had had a fairytale ending with the two heros getting married, starting their own ranch, the bigoted cowboys seeing the error of their ways and begrudgingly wishing them well, maybe drunkenly cheering them on at the wedding--or even if they ran off to "San Francisco"--wouldn't D. Scott or David Ehrenstein just as readily be complaining that it skirts serious gay issues? The movie wants these boys to get it together but it is a star-crossed lovers story.

... I guess a weekend in L.A. or Dallas would have out of the question for him...

Because cowboys love cityslickers... The idea that every gay person has to be steeped in gay culture is ridiculous. Does every Canadian have to love--or know anything at all about--hockey and does every deaf person have to enter deaf culture or even learn sign language? So, he keeps to the boondocks. Outrageous.

...Ask yourself this question: how would the public react to a movie about two inner city black girls that was written by Ben Stein and acted by Paris Hilton and Gwyneth Paltrow....)

Do they make out at any point...? The thing is, in movies, not everything is real. To my knowledge neither actor is a cowboy either. Actors play characters of different nationalities, professions, backgrounds, personalities, anything that can be faked or gotten away with. I was upset to see Toshiro Mifune in Shadow of the Wolf but not because he was playing an Inuit and I can guess why they went that route. Instead of the blanket cry of "he's not gay" why not point out what you think they got wrong.

...Leaving us finally to deal with message of the movie's sub-plot: closeted gay fathers - in their quests to remain eternal Peter Pans - pose a threat to the institutions of family and marriage...

I'd like to see this rephrased in a way that doesn't make it seem paranoid and delusional. I can't see how this movie is the enemy. All I'm picking up here is a "you're either with modern-gay culture or you're against it" vibe. Isn't radicalism outdated? Saturatism seems much more effective these days.