837 Dekalog

[swo17]

Sorry, I thought this was the sharing minority opinions thread.

[zedz]

No and no, it's mostly the same footage in the same ratio. Love has a different ending that changes the meaning somewhat. I don't recall anything all that different about Killing, other than it being longer.

As I recall, the longer Killing devotes a lot of its extended runtime to the lawyer, which significantly changes the dynamic of the entire film - though that's not as major a change as with the feature version of Love.

Colour me baffled as to why somebody who liked both of those features wouldn't be interested in seeing the major work they were extracted from.

[MichaelB]

I also seem to recall that Killing has more backstory for Jacek (the killer), but I haven't seen the shorter version for a good couple of decades.

[Big Ben]

Colour me baffled as to why somebody who liked both of those features wouldn't be interested in seeing the major work they were extracted from.

I've been convinced as to it's worth. I'll put my money where my very weird mouth is. \:D/

Sorry, I thought this was the sharing minority opinions thread.

Ha!

[Zot!]

Yeah, that makes no sense. While I like the two extracted features, they would hardly hold their afforded pedigree without the masterpiece status of the larger project. Also have to say that Facets have been an indespensible local resource in Chicago, bringing through things like a complete Eustasche retrospective well before such a thing was popular, and Bela Tarr introducing Satantango, not to mention their physical rental library was similarly very progressive.

[dda1996a]

Facets may be great as a local theater/library but their DVD releases are always awful.
I find it weird the chill reaction to this, as this was one of the greatest things I've seen. Just like how three colors changed me Dekalog had a similar profound affect on me. Considering it comes out three days after my b-day this is a must buy

[hearthesilence]

It's startling how someone like Facets could operate such a terrible home distribution label - one wonders if it was run by completely different personnel. Not only was the product shoddy (never mind the titles themselves, the presentation was very poor), but as the label started to crumble, they reportedly stopped payments owed to at least some (if not all) of the companies that licensed them their titles. It was a pretty bad operation from the start.

For the record, I'm very excited about this - I've only seen the series on VHS ages ago though I've seen the features ('extended episodes') projected in 35mm. I've been holding out for a good BD release.

[knives]

Honestly I think my least favorite thing about them was their stupid and over long sketches you simply could not skip over. It really makes one appreciate the wacky C.

[MichaelB]

The burned-in, ugly, vomit-yellow and seriously out-of-sync subtitles were more of an issue for me. But I don't recall that being a problem with their 'Dekalog' which, as Swo17 rightly says, was one of their better releases (albeit resoundingly average by any other yardstick).

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

I've never been a huge fan of the Three Colours trilogy (apart from White, the ugly duckling), but Dekalog (which I saw first) is for me one of the great works of moral philosophy of the last three decades. It's much less self-consciously arty than Kieślowski's later films, and that's very much to its advantage - I suspect the TV schedule and astonishingly tight shooting ratio of reputedly just 2:1 helped here.

Apparently Kieslowski interviewed a shed-load of documentary cameramen intent on retaining a form of social-realistic integrity for the whole series with more or less each one responsible for one episode. It was only later, principally with Idziak on Blue and Véronique, that he started diddling with filtration and optical doodads. Who initiated that is a matter of conjecture and it cooled off when he went back to working with Sobocinski.

[GaryC]

I've never been a huge fan of the Three Colours trilogy (apart from White, the ugly duckling), but Dekalog (which I saw first) is for me one of the great works of moral philosophy of the last three decades. It's much less self-consciously arty than Kieślowski's later films, and that's very much to its advantage - I suspect the TV schedule and astonishingly tight shooting ratio of reputedly just 2:1 helped here.

Personally I find Kieślowski's Polish work has an edge that isn't there in his international work, for all the latter's other qualities. That's why I too prefer White to Blue and Red and the first third of The Double Life of Véronique to the rest of it.

I also seem to recall that Killing has more backstory for Jacek (the killer), but I haven't seen the shorter version for a good couple of decades.

Killing has some shots which are little more graphic than those in Dekalog 5. In the hanging scene there's a shot of (spoilered for the squeamish):

Spoiler

the tray below the scaffold, showing that the hanged man has lost control of his bowels

[movielocke]

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who prefers "White" to the other two. I'm thrilled about this release.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I like White too (It's my favorite with Red).
It was a pleasure to see how it looked good in comparison to the HD Mk2 blu-ray which I bought first (because it came out first).
There's July Delpy in White. She's gorgeous. And since I saw her when I was a teenager in La Passion Béatrice I have a big crush.
Now, I like this kind of Polanski (a bit like the Locataire (Tender (hu... Julie Delpy lapsus) - The character makes me think about Polanski's dark humor, and Polanski as an actor in Le Locataire.
Then the second part - I like the economical and political subtext of the movie. There's also a kind of dark humor closes to some Emir Kusturica movies such as "La Vie de Boheme". Since Carol Carol is not welcomed here in France.

Spoiler

Then, the end suggested by M.Karmiz is beautiful. It reminds me Pickpocket - not only because of the prison bars. But there's a kind of emotional climax here.
Julie Delpy is - the sign language is really moving.
I also want to add that I really like the fake funeral scene, and the way he watched it

I regret that the bonus of the Criterion edition doesn't contain the "so surprised - oh my husband is alive" where Julie's clothes fall on the floor. This has been so much described and detailed in the interview, that I can almost see this scene.

Red is also my favorite because.......... I completely fell in love with Irene Jacob in La Double Vie De Véronique. (and as a piano teacher in Au Revoir Les Zenfants)
I like so much J-L Trintignant. He is fantastic. I like the fantastic atmosphere through all this movie. There's a kind of "grand méchant loup" feeling at the beginning. Even the opening with the wires is something really special, pre-David Fincher "Panic Room" or... Bound.
This is perhaps one of the Criterion Blu-Ray I rewatched the most with Walkabout or Badlands or La Double Vie de Véronique.

I love this kind of fetishism : close-up on Julie's sleeping and the breathe on her lock of hair... There's a lot of fetishist close-up in Red, and of course in La Double Vie de Véronique. This is close to Wong Kar Wai fetichism and I wonder if WKW was influenced by Kieslowski's movie.
Then there's a kind of mystic and fantastic atmosphere : not only the electric bulb which bursts (same kind of scenes in la double vie de Véronique and Red which gives the opportunity to Kieslowski to built up a fantastic scene between Irène Jacob and Jean Louis Trantignant with some fantastic lightings.)
This is beyond a Tarkovsky's quote or cliché. Kieslowski had his own "mystic" deep thoughts.
There's a Dekalog which is fascinating and so cruel : with all those computers scenes about weather prediction, but beyond, like some mathematical projection about destiny - like if a man was now superior to nature and everything around with the rationality and computers (thinking about computers, there's several Kieslowski movie, especially in the Bleu-Blanc-Rouge Trilogy which uses screen/computer images (in Red too).

This makes me think that we really miss in the Criterion collection, and in Blu-Ray, some Jean-Claude Brisseau movie. Because his approach of mysticism, political subtext, dark humour, erotism is fascinating. J.C Brisseau loves Kubrick but has his own universe and vision and most of his movies has some fascinating lightings (some fantastic blue - like later in Eyes White Shot), even the "Savates du bon dieu" (a kind of Roméo et Juliette). A box set with some J-C Brisseau movie like "De Bruit et De Fureur" et les "Savates du Bon Dieu" would be awesome! this is a Criterion wish !!!!! [-o<



Now, back to the Dekalog : I know there has been a new restoration for Cannes.
I hope that it won't been a greenish one like some Gaumont or Pathé releases
who is in charge of this restoration ?

Now, the ratio : 1.33 is OK for the Decalog, but I really love the theatrical movie and cut of A Short Film About Killing and A Short Film About Love. Especially A Short Film About Love (aka Une Brève Histoire d'Amour).
I'm not sure if these 2 movies will be included in the extra?
In that case, I think that perhaps M.Karminz suggested a much more appropriate ratio (1:66) for a theatrical release ?
The Mk2 DVD is like this.

then, can we expect 2 composite transfers ? - Criterion.com page says :
New, restored 4K digital transfer, with uncompressed monaural soundtracks on the Blu-rays
New high-definition digital restorations of A Short Film About Killing and A Short Film About Love

it seems to imply that the Dekalog would come from the new Cannes restoration, and that the 2 theatrical movies (Une Breve Histoire D'amour) would come from a HD restoration but perhaps not the same labs.
Any idea bout this ?

[djproject]

I know there has been a new restoration for Cannes.
I hope that it won't been a greenish one like some Gaumont or Pathé releases
who is in charge of this restoration ?

It will be sourced from the restoration work produced by MK2 shown at Cannes.

Now, the ratio : 1.33 is OK for the Decalog, but I really love the theatrical movie and cut of A Short Film About Killing and A Short Film About Love. Especially A Short Film About Love (aka Une Brève Histoire d'Amour).
I'm not sure if these 2 movies will be included in the extra?
In that case, I think that perhaps M.Karminz suggested a much more appropriate ratio (1:66) for a theatrical release ?
The Mk2 DVD is like this.

As we discussed here already, the two features will be included.

The 1.66:1 ratio will be there for the two theatrical features and for their respective episodes (Dekalog 5 and Dekalog 6). The rest will be 1.33:1.

then, can we expect 2 composite transfers ? - Criterion.com page says :
New, restored 4K digital transfer, with uncompressed monaural soundtracks on the Blu-rays
New high-definition digital restorations of A Short Film About Killing and A Short Film About Love

it seems to imply that the Dekalog would come from the new Cannes restoration, and that the 2 theatrical movies (Une Breve Histoire D'amour) would come from a HD restoration but perhaps not the same labs.
Any idea bout this ?

We won't know for sure until we see advance reviews of the set and from DVDBeaver in particular (as that site divulges not only technical information but also the transfer notes).

[MichaelB]

I suspect the two features will have been restored by their original production company Tor, as they've been working through their back catalogue of late. Tor was only a co-producer on Dekalog, and I suspect TVP (the Polish equivalent of the BBC) had deeper pockets when it came to funding ambitious restoration projects.

[djproject]

I suspect the two features will have been restored by their original production company Tor, as they've been working through their back catalogue of late. Tor was only a co-producer on Dekalog, and I suspect TVP (the Polish equivalent of the BBC) had deeper pockets when it came to funding ambitious restoration projects.

Then that begs the question: if you were going to make a significant investment in a large restoration, why release a technically sub-par Blu-ray with an anachronistic/improper aspect ratio, 1080i/25fps and lossy audio? (I could see "fundraising measure" but that's almost a scumbag way to do it through releasing something like that for almost ninety quid.)

[MichaelB]

Then that begs the question: if you were going to make a significant investment in a large restoration, why release a technically sub-par Blu-ray with an anachronistic/improper aspect ratio, 1080i/25fps and lossy audio? (I could see "fundraising measure" but that's almost a scumbag way to do it through releasing something like that for almost ninety quid.)

One of those "technically sub-par" features is actually how it should be presented. Dekalog was commissioned by and made for Polish PAL broadcast television, 25fps is unquestionably the original framerate (why would it be anything else?), and 1080i is the only way of preserving that framerate within the restrictions of the Blu-ray spec. The "i" is misleading here: if encoded correctly along the lines of the BFI's Ken Russell, Peter Watkins and Alan Clarke releases, it will effectively present a fully progressive image. I assume Criterion will unavoidably have to slow it down to 24fps, but that's for technical reasons beyond their control.

But that aside, the sad fact is that Blu-ray is an expensive niche format in Poland, and while Dekalog is regarded as a towering masterpiece of world cinema internationally, in Poland it's a popular TV series. I'd imagine what happened is similar to the fate which befell The World at War - namely, that it's impossible to make a TV sale these days with 4:3 material. Happily, though, it seems that the cropping was carried out at the very last stage of the restoration process and is completely reversible, so nobody needs to buy the Polish BD now. (Although if anyone's tempted, it's actually almost exactly thirty quid at the current exchange rate - I have no idea how you work it out to be three times as much!)

[djproject]

Then that begs the question: if you were going to make a significant investment in a large restoration, why release a technically sub-par Blu-ray with an anachronistic/improper aspect ratio, 1080i/25fps and lossy audio? (I could see "fundraising measure" but that's almost a scumbag way to do it through releasing something like that for almost ninety quid.)

One of those "technically sub-par" features is actually how it should be presented. Dekalog was commissioned by and made for Polish PAL broadcast television, 25fps is unquestionably the original framerate (why would it be anything else?), and 1080i is the only way of preserving that framerate within the restrictions of the Blu-ray spec. The "i" is misleading here: if encoded correctly along the lines of the BFI's Ken Russell, Peter Watkins and Alan Clarke releases, it will effectively present a fully progressive image. I assume Criterion will unavoidably have to slow it down to 24fps, but that's for technical reasons beyond their control.

But that aside, the sad fact is that Blu-ray is an expensive niche format in Poland, and while Dekalog is regarded as a towering masterpiece of world cinema internationally, in Poland it's a popular TV series. I'd imagine what happened is similar to the fate which befell The World at War - namely, that it's impossible to make a TV sale these days with 4:3 material. Happily, though, it seems that the cropping was carried out at the very last stage of the restoration process and is completely reversible, so nobody needs to buy the Polish BD now. (Although if anyone's tempted, it's actually almost exactly thirty quid at the current exchange rate - I have no idea how you work it out to be three times as much!)

Very fair reasons. Also the restoration effort was done by MK2, not TVP. So this was a case of TVP making sure it was just available in general, at least available to a Polish audience.

[bugsy_pal]

So Dekalog is likely to play on bluray at a slower speed than it was filmed at? Could we expect a UK version to play at 25fps? If so, I'll wait for that.

[Zot!]

It's not impossible that a UK release would play at 25fps, but other films have sometimes conformed to a 24fps presentation regardless, like Melencholia, and The World. Others like Berlin, Alexanderplatz are in 25fps. That said, if crit does a proper transfer and fixes the sound pitch, it should be fairly indestinguishable.

[bugsy_pal]

It would be nice if Criterion could inform us as to whether they will pitch-correct the audio. Is that something they have revealed before, either on forums or in their booklets/inserts?

[TMDaines]

They probably won't. It's not standard practice to pitch correct for these minor frame rate shifts. For Berlin Alexanderplatz, they didn't either.

Virtually no-one can tell the difference between 4% speed up or slow down between PAL/NTSC.

[djproject]

Virtually no-one can tell the difference between 4% speed up or slow down between PAL/NTSC.

Unless you are sensitive to pitch . But yes, in the grand scheme of things, you're right =]

For anyone who is curious about the 25/24 dilemma, some thoughts when Criterion was about to release Berlin Alexanderplatz.

[PfR73]

I can tell, and I can't stand PAL speed-up. The first time I ever watched anything PAL was when my best friend imported DVD sets of Friends from the UK before any were released here in the US. Ten seconds into watching the first episode, I could tell something was wrong with the theme song, that it was faster & higher than it should be. NTSC slow-down is much more rare, but I can tell with that also. It's why Cillian Murphy's voice sounds very different in 28 Days Later than any other film in which I've seen him. At least in that case, it's how the film was presented theatrically.

[MichaelB]

One of the weirder experiences I've had recently was when QCing a dual-format release featuring something that I'd narrated - and my voice didn't sound quite right on the DVD. It took an embarrassingly long time for me to twig that this was because it had been subjected to PAL speedup.