322 The Complete Mr. Arkadin

[Feast on me]

Can't believe I overlooked Lady From Shanghai, but yes, definitely watch it before viewing the Stranger. The thing with the Magnificent Ambersons is that it's only interesting insofar as what isn't there. The cut that remains is good but watching it, the "what-could-have-been" of the never to be seen again cut sticks in your ribs like yesterday's brunch. Unlike the rest of Welles canon, this one suffered the most tragically from the cuts. Great sequences lost amid a tepid melodrama that was obviously much more fleshed out in the original version.

Does anyone know where i can get information on what was cut from Magnificent Ambersons and which scenes where not shot by Welles? I know the ending wasn't shot by Welles.

[skuhn8]

Can't believe I overlooked Lady From Shanghai, but yes, definitely watch it before viewing the Stranger.

Why? It's not like one is the sequal of the other or anything. Great films. The Stranger is a blast, especially the intro. BTW, has anyone tried matching the telephone doodle session with the movements/"direction" of the intro? Occured to me during a second viewing. [this wouldn't constitute a spoiler...far too vague and inconsequential to plot]

[kinjitsu]

The thing with the Magnificent Ambersons is that it's only interesting insofar as what isn't there. The cut that remains is good but watching it, the "what-could-have-been" of the never to be seen again cut sticks in your ribs like yesterday's brunch. Unlike the rest of Welles canon, this one suffered the most tragically from the cuts. Great sequences lost amid a tepid melodrama that was obviously much more fleshed out in the original version.

What "might have been" is a thorny issue, but one that I can live with, and it's doubtful the lost footage will ever be recovered. Cut or not, Ambersons remains a stunning film.

Does anyone know where i can get information on what was cut from Magnificent Ambersons and which scenes where not shot by Welles? I know the ending wasn't shot by Welles.

If you can get your hands on a copy, Robert L. Carringer's The Magnificent Ambersons: A Reconstruction is the most comprehensive source available.

[Andre Jurieu]

The thing with the Magnificent Ambersons is that it's only interesting insofar as what isn't there. The cut that remains is good but watching it, the "what-could-have-been" of the never to be seen again cut sticks in your ribs like yesterday's brunch. Unlike the rest of Welles canon, this one suffered the most tragically from the cuts. Great sequences lost amid a tepid melodrama that was obviously much more fleshed out in the original version.

Where is Narshty when you need him? I'll let him handle this one since he has superbly defended the film in the past (so much so that it placed higher than Kane on our 40s List - which I actually think displays the whole "now overrated because it was underrated" phenomenon).

Does anyone know where i can get information on what was cut from Magnificent Ambersons and which scenes where not shot by Welles? I know the ending wasn't shot by Welles.

This is a pretty good site (or this). It includes an FAQ that states:

Where can I read more about the Ambersons?

The most complete reference is Robert L. Carringer's book The Magnificent Ambersons - A Reconstruction. This book describes the history of the making and undoing of the Ambersons. This is also the only book that has all of the dialogue from the original 131 minute version of the Ambersons, as well as various storyboards, sketches, stills from the lost footage, and the complicated details of the editing process and Welles futile attempts to influence it from South America. Even with just the script, the intense sadness of the original ending with Fanny and Eugene in the boarding house is heartbreaking. Like the laserdisc, this book is out of print but used copies can be found in many of the online used bookstores and occasionally on eBay. Another book by the same author is The Making of Citizen Kane, which has a short but detailed chapter on Ambersons.

Another terrific reference is This Is Orson Welles by Orson Welles and Peter Bogdonavich. This book has a condensed version of the original script, as well as excellent conversations between Welles and Bogdonavich about the Ambersons. This is also a great book for anyone who wants to know more about Welles' other movies and his life after the Ambersons.

BFI Film Classics recently published The Magnificent Ambersons by V.F. Perkins. This is also a description and analysis of the Ambersons, much like the Carringer book but without the script.

[ellipsis7]

While Rosenbaum respects and refers to Carringer's work on the 'reconstruction ' in the aforementioned Appendix on 'The Original Ambersons' he begs to differ with Carringer on some of his textual takes and critical conclusions...

[blindside8zao]

touch of evil it is. I know where to rent this one, so that's easy.

[stroszeck]

I've seen this one on VHS and remember that the only thing that really bothered me was the very last couple of minutes, basically the ending (which I don't want to spoil for others). Is there an alternate ending included in any of the three versions of this set?

[Jem]

Not sure if this has been linked before, too lazy to search.

Reconstructing Orson Welles
Film&Video at studiodaily.com
http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo ... /6014.html

[Narshty]

The thing with the Magnificent Ambersons is that it's only interesting insofar as what isn't there.

I'm not trying to be facetious, but that statement really doesn't make much sense. How can what isn't there be the most interesting thing? Besides, what is still remains is nonetheless a feast of astounding richness. They could just release the scene of Ray Collins saying goodbye to Tim Holt at the train station as its own film and I'd still tell everyone I know to buy a ticket and bring a hanky too.

The cut that remains is good but watching it, the "what-could-have-been" of the never to be seen again cut sticks in your ribs like yesterday's brunch. Unlike the rest of Welles canon, this one suffered the most tragically from the cuts.

Sort of agree and sort of don't. This is the one that had the most potential robbed blind in the editing room, yet it's still his most cinematically exciting and moving work.

Great sequences lost amid a tepid melodrama that was obviously much more fleshed out in the original version.

The problem isn't so much that the melodrama is 'tepid' as it seriously lacks oomph when removed from its intended backdrop of massive social change that RKO purged from the film.

On this point, a great misconception has sprung up, partly because of Welles' oft-quotes comments about the film "being edited by a lawnmower/the janitor" and also the overall incoherence of what we have, that RKO was totally indiscriminate in what it edited out of Welles' original to get it down to 90-odd minutes. This isn't true - it's a very systematic purging of almost all the industrial and economic themes and the blackness of tone in Welles' original to reduce it to soap-opera status. But of course the Ambersons aren't the story themselves, they're merely the helpless bystanders - something felt very strongly when thrust into the main focus of the film we now have. They fail and crumble for no particular reason which, as you say, ends up being rather underwhelming.

[Ishmael]

They fail and crumble for no particular reason which, as you say, ends up being rather underwhelming.

I think the reason for their downfall is that as the older generation begins to enter the last years of their lives, the newer generation (Tim Holt's character) doesn't have any sense of values or economic savvy to keep the family viable. He's an arrogant nouveau riche brat who's never had to work for his money, yet he condescends to everyone who isn't as rich as him. Never having learned a trade or understood how to adapt with the times, he cluelessly lets the family fortune blow away. I don't like the changes RKO made to the film, but all of this is completely clear in the cut that exists. So it's hardly fair to say that the family's downfall occurs for "no particular reason." I think it's still a good drama, and the Welles-directed scenes (which comprise more than 90% of the movie) are beautifully staged and very effective.

[ellipsis7]

While Welles' earlier films show youthful 'genius', after CITIZEN KANE oft obstructed by the powers to be as with IT'S ALL TRUE & MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS, I actually prefer and admire more his middle and later films - OTHELLO, ARKADIN, TOUCH OF EVIL, CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT, F FOR FAKE - richer, show genuine experience of life and real depth and genius, rather than young prodigiousness... He starts to go right LADY FROM SHANGHAI on...

Looking forward to therefore Joseph McBride's upcoming second Welles book...

[Gigi M.]

Back cover and spine

DVDTalk review

[FilmFanSea]

DVDTalk review

A mouth-watering review. And selling at Deep Discount for the no-brainer price of $27.47 (45% off), even a casual Welles fan should take the plunge.

[denti alligator]

Which version/disc in the Rosenbaum/Naremore commentary on?

[kinjitsu]

Which version/disc in the Rosenbaum/Naremore commentary on?

The Corinth version.

[Jeff]

Savant weighs in.

[Schkura]

Got this in the mail yesterday and its freaking huge. Just to be weird, I'm going to read the book first over the long weekend, then delve into the film(s).

[DrewReiber]

Got it a week early at Best Buy. The comprehensive version is awesome! Consequently, I now realize the version that got me into this movie was the most despised, American cut.

The new cut retains the speed and thrill of the chase, but is far more coherent and better characterized. The flashback sequence is now in the proper order and the disembodied narration has been given a logical origin. The new ending and beginning are really cool too.

The documentary on disc 3 is as comprehensive as the new version, and provides a lot of weight and validity to the restoration project. DO NOT WATCH THIS BEFORE THE FILM IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT OR WISH TO BE SURPRISED. The other material on the disc is fantastic, with the alternate Spanish actresses (from the Spanish cuts) presented in their full glory without the need to take up feature length space. The outtakes are short, but sweet, with a few moments where you get to see/hear Welles directing in an anal retentative, breakneck pace.

I haven't had a chance to look at the other discs yet, but still... I'm already blown away and I've seen maybe 1/5 of the total package.

[oldsheperd]

I've only watched the Corinth version so far. I must admit that I'm as confused as f@#k!

[arsonfilms]

I got a copy a few weeks ago, and I found it pretty daunting, so I figured I'd post a little user's guide. I had kind of hoped I'd find some sort of direction in the reviews, but alas...

Anyway, I found it really helpful to read the pamphlet first. It includes three essays (one for each version) explaining why that particular version is the best one. What it doesn't mention though, is that the one advocating Confidential Report seems to have been written before the Corinth version was widely available, and the essay advocating the Corinth version doesn't take into consideration the Comprehensive version. I opted to see the Comprehensive version since it's the most coherent, so I'd be familiar enough with the story when I watched the others so as not to be confused.

The Harry Lime episodes were put together before the film, and the book was based on those episodes and the early draft of the script, so it's important to see at least one version of the film before attacking those. Otherwise you won't even be able to keep the characters straight.

My recommendation is: pamphlet, Comprehensive version, documentary, book/Lime episodes, commentary/Corinth version, Confidential report.

I'm sure other people will have their own recommendations, so don't take mine as the rule. Just a suggestion.

[Fletch F. Fletch]

My recommendation is: pamphlet, Comprehensive version, documentary, book/Lime episodes, commentary/Corinth version, Confidential report.

Yeah, that's the path I've started to take except that after the documentary I listened to Rosenbaum/Naremore's commentary track which is quite good.

[arsonfilms]

after the documentary I listened to Rosenbaum/Naremore's commentary track which is quite good.

That's exactly what I did, too. It's a great commentary, but it threw me off a little to see the completely different ending without a reference to the one I was familiar with. I recomend the commentary in that sequence, but it's worth it to go back and watch the last 15 minutes of the Corinth version again without it.

[tryavna]

The outtakes are short, but sweet, with a few moments where you get to see/hear Welles directing in an anal retentative, breakneck pace.

These outtakes are indeed fascinating and unbelievably enjoyable! I particularly like the outtake from "Welles Acting" where he yells at some poor crew member for walking in the wrong place and breaking Welles' concentration. Just getting a glimpse of how focused and specific Welles was in his intentions is quite a gift to any fan.

[Ashirg]

Issa Clubb interview can be found here

[gubbelsj]

NY Times DVD review, semi-positive, if a tad skeptical of the film's importance....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/18/movie ... ref=slogin