beamish14 wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:14 am
I'm really fascinated by the use of visual effects in this, which were supervised by the great John Dykstra.
In particular, one sequence Spoiler
with Dalton mentally casting himself inside of The Great Escape is very reminiscent of Forrest Gump, a film that Tarantino is a huge admirer of
Spoiler
I took this scene a different way--in the reality of this film, Dalton was actually originally cast in The Great Escape and shot at least that one scene for it but they decided he wasn't working and recast him with McQueen, to Dalton's great shame
How is this implied? I think it is explicitly stated that he never really had the role but was considered. What we cut to can either be construed as Rick's imagination as to what might have been or more likely Tarantino's imagination as to what might have been. I think the entire film is from Tarantino's point of view.
And this is not a spoiler, the scene has been actively discussed by Tarantino himself. The first 2 hrs are okay for discussion. Only the last 40 minutes can be spoiled.
Nasir007 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:16 pm
And this is not a spoiler, the scene has been actively discussed by Tarantino himself. The first 2 hrs are okay for discussion. Only the last 40 minutes can be spoiled.
Wrong. Use spoiler tags if you're spoiling a specific aspect of the movie, especially a surprise - Tarantino didn't write the rules of this forum.
swo17 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:18 pm
He explicitly stated it because he's ashamed about it. And I spoilered it because it's one of the movie's best jokes.
Why would Rick be ashamed about it? I don't think I saw it that way at all. And for what it's worth, I did not find that scene particularly funny. Nor was there laughter in my theater with that scene. The actual filming of scenes with Stacey and the scenes with the kid were however hilarious.
Because he's extremely self-conscious about his career not turning out as well as he had once hoped, as established thoroughly throughout the whole film?
swo17 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:18 pm
He explicitly stated it because he's ashamed about it. And I spoilered it because it's one of the movie's best jokes.
Why would Rick be ashamed about it? I don't think I saw it that way at all. And for what it's worth, I did not find that scene particularly funny. Nor was there laughter in my theater with that scene. The actual filming of scenes with Stacey and the scenes with the kid were however hilarious.
This doesn't matter in the slightest re: whether or not it should be spoiler tagged here
swo17 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:18 pm
He explicitly stated it because he's ashamed about it. And I spoilered it because it's one of the movie's best jokes.
Why would Rick be ashamed about it? I don't think I saw it that way at all. And for what it's worth, I did not find that scene particularly funny. Nor was there laughter in my theater with that scene. The actual filming of scenes with Stacey and the scenes with the kid were however hilarious.
I thought that scene was hilarious, and am glad Tarantino decided to put it back in after the Cannes cut. I agree that it's not entirely clear whether it was a memory of filming or a fantasy of what could have been, but watching DiCaprio play Rick Dalton as an actor was terrific all around. That he was able to alter his own acting style to emulate not only the character of Rick Dalton but Rick's style of acting is far more challenging than DiCaprio made the part seem, and the range he exhibits in a variety of roles we see him play to the strengths of Rick as an actor (the western scenes) as well as to his weaknesses (the scene depicted in the spoilerbox of the movie-that-could-have-been) demonstrate the lengths to which DiCaprio and Tarantino went to create such a layered character.
Question about that scene - do you think there was some sort of issue with the film or with a performance or something? The three or four quick cuts as Stacy begins talking to Dalton seem inorganic and more like a solution to an editing/coverage problem - thought at first they were just supposed to signify some rivalry or Dalton's hangover, but I'm not sure they work on either front
swo17 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:18 pm
He explicitly stated it because he's ashamed about it. And I spoilered it because it's one of the movie's best jokes.
Why would Rick be ashamed about it? I don't think I saw it that way at all. And for what it's worth, I did not find that scene particularly funny. Nor was there laughter in my theater with that scene. The actual filming of scenes with Stacey and the scenes with the kid were however hilarious.
I thought that scene was hilarious, and am glad Tarantino decided to put it back in after the Cannes cut. I agree that it's not entirely clear whether it was a memory of filming or a fantasy of what could have been, but watching DiCaprio play Rick Dalton as an actor was terrific all around. That he was able to alter his own acting style to emulate not only the character of Rick Dalton but Rick's style of acting is far more challenging than DiCaprio made the part seem, and the range he exhibits in a variety of roles we see him play to the strengths of Rick as an actor (the western scenes) as well as to his weaknesses (the scene depicted in the spoilerbox of the movie-that-could-have-been) demonstrate the lengths to which DiCaprio and Tarantino went to create such a layered character.
It's a good scene. I just didn't find it funny. Also, I actually found it unconvincing. I actually don't know if the FVX were great. I think the lighting on him compared to everything else was different. Or maybe the angle wasn't quite right and the eyelines didn't match up or something. I thought Tarantino might have chosen to film the entire scene itself for authenticity but he just chose to use VFX. Though he wasn't big on recreation and did not recreate the Tate scenes either which as we have already discussed remains a wonderful choice (though some people have said it should have been recreated with Robbie). But on the whole, the scene is a great inclusion. I'd say the entire Stacey sequence is one of the best in the film.
A.O. Scott in a mostly positive review also considers Tarantino's conservatism. He calls the movie
"the expression of a sensibility that is profoundly and passionately conservative. John Ford, one of Hollywood's greatest conservatives ended one of his greatest movies with the exhortation to 'print the legend.' Tarantino's answer is to film the fairy tale....
The political struggles of the decade are deep in the background, occasionally crackling through the car radio static along with traffic and weather reports. The music we hear isn't a soundtrack of rebellion, but an anthology of pleasure. Tarantino's anti-ironic celebration of the mainstream popular culture of the time amounts to a sustained argument against the idea of a counterculture. Those who would disrupt, challenge or destroy the last stable society on earth are in the grip of an ideological, aesthetic and moral error. Hippies aren't cool. Old-time he-men like Rick Dalton and Cliff Booth are cool."
I would add that the 50s-60's tv westerns that Cliff and Rick worked in were some of the most reactionary entertainment on the tube, presenting a romantic view of bringing law and order to the American west that most Americans (including children like me) passionately believed in, which is one of the reasons the horrors of the Vietnam War struck so deep.
mfunk9786 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:30 pm
Question about that scene - do you think there was some sort of issue with the film or with a performance or something? The three or four quick cuts as Stacy begins talking to Dalton seem inorganic and more like a solution to an editing/coverage problem - thought at first they were just supposed to signify some rivalry or Dalton's hangover, but I'm not sure they work on either front
Spoiler
Are you referring to Dalton's performance on Lancer or The Great Escape? If the latter, the issue was in his delivery and performance feeling very inorganic in the context of the film, contrasting with McQueen's more relaxed "cool" in the actual film. If the former, I took the entire episode to play to Dalton's strengths of intense passion and care for the work, trying to be the best he can but with a limited range of abilities regarding the roles he can play, not the energy he brings. He does better in these "B" TV roles and one of the better actors in that specific area of Hollywood. Any inorganic moments between Stacy and Dalton are either because the script and vibe of the episode has moments and characters that are intentionally exaggerated to fit the feel of the show, or because of re-reading the lines with less energy prior to the moment during which Rick called "line" and signaled the cut, that will likely just be edited out but necessary to go back to in getting back into the groove of the scene.
No, talking about Stacy introducing himself to Dalton. There are quick little cuts that I can only describe as reminiscent of bullets being loaded in a chamber.
Mr Sheldrake wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:48 pm
A.O. Scott in a mostly positive review also considers Tarantino's conservatism. He calls the movie
"the expression of a sensibility that is profoundly and passionately conservative. John Ford, one of Hollywood's greatest conservatives ended one of his greatest movies with the exhortation to 'print the legend.' Tarantino's answer is to film the fairy tale....
The political struggles of the decade are deep in the background, occasionally crackling through the car radio static along with traffic and weather reports. The music we hear isn't a soundtrack of rebellion, but an anthology of pleasure. Tarantino's anti-ironic celebration of the mainstream popular culture of the time amounts to a sustained argument against the idea of a counterculture. Those who would disrupt, challenge or destroy the last stable society on earth are in the grip of an ideological, aesthetic and moral error. Hippies aren't cool. Old-time he-men like Rick Dalton and Cliff Booth are cool."
I would add that the 50s-60's tv westerns that Cliff and Rick worked in were some of the most reactionary entertainment on the tube, presenting a romantic view of bringing law and order to the American west that most Americans (including children like me) passionately believed in, which is one of the reasons the horrors of the Vietnam War struck so deep.
I will agree that the engagement with the counter culture wasn't quite there except to dismiss it as corrupting to America. I think the Qualley hitchhike scene, she briefly mentions being anti-war or briefly mentions some sort of counterculture worldview I don't remember exactly what it was. But I'd say that was the only positive portrayal of a hippie and brief lipservice to their thoughts and even that turns sour. And then Rick has open disdain for hippies and the first time the hippies are shown is literally in a garbage can.
And of course you have - Spoiler
the utter destruction and devastation of the hippies in extremely graphic manner from the films two 'heroes'. The excessive use of force against a home invasion also seems like a right-wing fantasy. Nobody would treat home invaders that way. At worst you will shoot to kill or kill some way but not tear their bodies apart limb for limb.
mfunk9786 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:51 pm
No, talking about Stacy introducing himself to Dalton. There are quick little cuts that I can only describe as reminiscent of bullets being loaded in a chamber.
I'd have to see it again to recollect better, but my impression was that they indicated Dalton's self-consciousness, not only in being in the presence of someone who still had a show and a more active career as a hero of a western, but as a visual expression of anxiety in the reminder of his most glaring missed opportunity at hitting it big and realising his dreams.
Nasir007 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:47 pm
It's a good scene. I just didn't find it funny. Also, I actually found it unconvincing. I actually don't know if the FVX were great. I think the lighting on him compared to everything else was different. Or maybe the angle wasn't quite right and the eyelines didn't match up or something. I thought Tarantino might have chosen to film the entire scene itself for authenticity but he just chose to use VFX. Though he wasn't big on recreation and did not recreate the Tate scenes either which as we have already discussed remains a wonderful choice (though some people have said it should have been recreated with Robbie). But on the whole, the scene is a great inclusion. I'd say the entire Stacey sequence is one of the best in the film.
Spoiler
The elements that were unconvincing to you seemed absolutely intentional to add more layers to the artificial and inauthentic feel of that scene, which made it work even better in displaying Dalton's presence as out of place.
Nico Fidenco wrote the music for Dinamite Jim, I assume including the piece used by Tarantino. I did a swift Google search on Fidenco, I Cantori Moderni and Dinamite Jim; no additional composer info turned up.
mfunk9786 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:30 pm
Question about that scene - do you think there was some sort of issue with the film or with a performance or something? The three or four quick cuts as Stacy begins talking to Dalton seem inorganic and more like a solution to an editing/coverage problem - thought at first they were just supposed to signify some rivalry or Dalton's hangover, but I'm not sure they work on either front
Jump cuts were placed all over the film. There was also that one in the beginning when Marvin meets with Rick and it shows Cliff about to bite off the celery then all of sudden it's bitten off. It's actually sorta hard to notice because the cuts almost match in continuity.
Pitchfork gave the soundtrack album a 7.7, which seems a little low but is still a fair hat tip to how awesome it is - a total time warp and the driving album of the summer
Listening to it as we speak and was considering coming to say that. It definitely brings the concept of such an album to the realm of art and not just mixtape.
I still think it's the second for grammatical reasons, but yes, there's a line break before the ellipsis appears in the film, so I suppose you could say it's the third. I still think that since we have a letter typed by the director of the film, we should go with the syntax he used there.
But really I think it's ( )nce Upon a Time... in HollyVVood
