Twilight Time / Redwind

[tenia]

In the end, having had a look based on that plus what I actually own and what I could gather on Beaver or blu-ray.com, I find some "worst offenders" where TT's business model really seems un-competitive considering their editorial content, either because there's almost none but they still charge $25 (or even $30) for their releases, or because it got (easily) tore apart by global competition.

For instance, Two Rode Together, 8 heads in a Duffel bag, Blue Denim Behold A Pale Horse, Mr Hobbs Takes a Vacation, Heaven Knows Mr Allison or Wild in the Country are pretty much barebones (except the usual - but not systematic - isolated score and trailer) releases priced at least $25. The Whole Town's Talking litterally is barebones, while Satan Never Sleeps only has a trailer.

On the other hand, here are some titles where the worldwide competition just put some much more attractive packages (usually for a cheaper price) : Zardoz (Arrow : + 150 min of extras), The Mechanic (Wild Side : +41 min), Panic in Needle Park (Signal One : +78min), Violent Saturday (Eureka : +49 min), The Fury (Arrow : +115 min), Hussy (Indicator : + 72 min), Birdman of Alcatraz (MoC : +65 min), Fat City (Indicator : +65 min + the John Player Lecture), The Last Detail (Indicator : +48 min + the TV Syndication cut).

Even better : when the US re-releases beat the TT ones (sometimes for a cheaper price) : 1984 (Criterion : +71 min), Vampires (Shout : +58 min + 21 min vintage making of), The Blob 88 (12 new ITWs + 1 new audio com + a BTS featurette), 10 To Midnight (Shout : + 36 min + 1 audio com'), Fright Night (Sony : + 41 min + 2h30 You're So Cool, Brewster!).

Finally, there are the cheaper equivalent re-releases from Sony (Night of the Living Dead, Christine, Steel Magnolias), and the Sony titles TT released in the US for $30 but Sony released in Europe for 8€ (As Good as it Gets, Philadelphia, Sleepless in Seattle, The Way We Were).

I'll go with some of those.

[tenia]

The Q&A session was too short so I havent been able to ask my question (and unfortunately, I was chatting with another label when Brian Jamieson left my eyesight and I havent been able to find him again afterwards).

He spoke about TT and explained that while 2016 has been a booming year for them, it has been followed by a huge drop in 2017. It explains why they started doing sales more and more often, and they're currently taking a break on releasing new releases in order to re-evaluate the market.

He also gave some figures dor licensing costs and in-house cleaning/restorations of additional elements (like the Roadshow elements for Judgment at Nuremberg) : licensing costs range up to $60k and from (I'm not 100% sure of the figure) $20-30k.

They had huge problems on their recent release of Sunshine : it took 6 years for Universal to agree licencing it, but the negative was already in full vinegar syndrome. Fortunately, they managed to get a new restoration done somehow... only for Universal to realise some music rights werent cleared ! They almost pulled the plug on the whole thing but since sunk costs are real, the missing money got injected and the project got done.

(NB: this was a live conference so some of this might not be 100% accurate. I understood TT put some of their own money in getting Sunshine released but I'm unsure on who put the last bit of money on the table. Sorry for that)

Side note : I got jealous of the moderator-journalist who ended up getting the few TT copies Jamieson brought as freebies. It was The President's Lady and Wild in the Country though. He also brought Sunshine, but the journalist only got 2.

Sungjii Oh from the KFA was also there, and also Manuel Chiche (ex- Wild Side, currently The Jokers and La Rabbia), Vincent Paul-Boncour (Carlotta) and Stefan Droessler (Editions Filmmmuseum Munich).

[domino harvey]

In another sign that this label is dead, Julie Kirgo is no longer associated with Twilight Time

[MichaelB]

Hopefully Beat the devil is coming from Indicator.TT´s disc is region A-locked so someone in region B land must release this transfer.

The BFI’s bringing it out early next year.

[tenia]

In another sign that this label is dead, Julie Kirgo is no longer associated with Twilight Time

It was a very long twilight but I guess this might be it, then.

[domino harvey]

On the plus side, they'll probably start slashing prices on their existing stock soon

[tenia]

SAE has already been multiplying their clearance sales though for months, though.

[FrauBlucher]

Format has outlived the label.

[tenia]

[nitin]

I know people here seem to dislike the label but they have put out a number of exclusive titles that I am glad to have purchased and seen.

[KJones77]

I know people here seem to dislike the label but they have put out a number of exclusive titles that I am glad to have purchased and seen.

Agreed. Sorry to see them seemingly on the way out. I'll definitely be picking up titles in whatever clearance sale I assume they'll hold down the line.

[tenia]

I don't so much "dislike the label" that dislike how they're operating. They've been arrogant in their knowledge of the market and opportunistic in their price / content ratio to the point they explicitly told me once "if Americans want to get those movies, that'll be this anyway". They also bragged about how their 3000 copies "1 size fits all" batch size was the right one because 30% of their releases were sold out after (IIRC) 5 or 6 years (and many clearance sales already), while it really actually tends to demonstrate the opposite : mathematically, the majority of their releases haven't sold out after that many years (ie 3000 copies is way too much) while some of the others have sold out much quicker and they're now back to being unavailable for people. It only points towards the need for tailored batch sizes, but yet.

They sure saved many movies through their releases, but I can't fathom defending $30 basically bare-bones releases, especially when on top of that, the places where you can buy them makes the whole thing even more complicated (and expensive). The fact is many of the renowned labels are releasing these movies in better and/or better priced releases, while TT never really pushed the editorial effort because they simply didn't need to.

The reality of the market most likely caught up with them, especially when their releases managed to get even lighter in extra features over time and that other labels were showing months after months how badly mispriced TT releases were. The US re-releases by other labels (discussed above) probably showed the US customers that too (ie for the majority who doesn't import).

I myself quickly stopped buying TT releases when realising the titles I was interested by were getting better cheaper releases elsewhere but also that they were more and more likely to get clearance sales over time (which they did).

Bottom line is : I like what they were doing, but certainly not HOW they were doing it.

I still feel sad in a way because of all the movies they were rescuing but it's hard to really feel sorry for them when it just seems like the logical consequences of a relatively ill-suited marketing plan.

[Saturnome]

As long as someone else release Leave Her to Heaven so I can finally have it

[nitin]

Tenia, I don’t necessarily disagree with all of that but again, for me, they have released over a 100 exclusive titles that I am glad to have and that still haven’t had any competing releases. At the end of the day, I am in it for the movies not whether label x has a better release strategy than label y.

[tenia]

I understand your point, but I'm always bothered when X label licenced this or that movie when I know Y label would have released it for cheaper and in a more loaded release instead. I can't separate those 2 elements. There's probably 4 times too many releases around the world for my budget to buy. At some point, such elements cannot not be part of my priorisation strategy.
Moreover, I'm probably slightly unlucky but 8 of the 22 TT releases I bought have been released elsewhere through better and/or cheaper releases. That kind of slowed my enthusiasm down.

[FrauBlucher]

First off, they took advantage of the consumer. First by shouting about the death knell of physical media as to get everyone to scoop up their limited edition releases. While price gauging. They didn’t even have long term rights. So, what might have been a possibility back then has turned into reality now by other labels getting many of those rights to the films and releasing in better, cheaper versions. Secondly, I don’t want to bash the guy because he is no longer with us. But his arrogance in defending his business model was disingenuous. But to each their own. If there are folks Ok with all that, then more power to you. I certainly didn’t appreciate the duplicity.

[nitin]

Most of the TT titles I have are from their sales and were between $7.95 - $19.95 (plus shipping). So once again, I don’t disagree with what you have said but it’s also not like one couldn’t buy most of them if one didn’t want to pay $29.95.

And after all these years there are still a huge number of exclusive titles released that still have no competing versions anywhere in the world.

[whaleallright]

As long as someone else release Leave Her to Heaven so I can finally have it

I would hope it would be from a different transfer, because the Twilight Time Blu-Ray is one of the worst examples I know of an older film being DNR'd to hell. I watched it for about 10 minutes and promptly listed it for sale; I much prefer the Fox DVD. It doesn't help that I saw a magnificent 35mm print of the film—one of the great Technicolor films—just a few months before I bought the Blu-Ray. The waxy visages of the characters felt like a violation. This is largely Fox's fault for supplying a bad master, but Twilight Time's relative indifference to the kind of quality control that would have rejected it is part of why I had mixed feelings about them. Still, I have kept probably 15–20 of their releases and I've enjoyed every one of those, most recently Melvin and Howard.

First by shouting about the death knell of physical media as to get everyone to scoop up their limited edition releases

To be fair, I think Redman was absolutely sincere in his belief that physical media was decisively on its way out, and he wasn't alone in that belief—it was the subject of a zillion articles in Variety etc. I imagine he was pleasantly surprised by the tenacity of Blu-Ray even if it meant their business model ended up being a bit of a miscalculation.

[nitin]

I am fairly sure there is no DNR at play in Leave Her to Heaven, all of the issues (mainly colour) are due to the fact that no 1st or 2nd gen original elements exist. And the DVD is definitely not a better viewing experience IMHO, it fares even worse in the colour department and most definitely has less detail.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film4/blu-ray_ ... lu-ray.htm

[domino harvey]

I've never heard anyone say the Twilight Time had DNR...

[Rayon Vert]

It always looks terrific to me!

[Saturnome]

Considering the original elements are lost I think the screencaps look nice.
I wish I could have seen the film before it went out of print, because I wasn't expecting it to be so good and to be something that is now missing in my collection ... and can't have because of Twilight Time's tactics. Surely this is going to be released by another label at some point?

[tenia]

Leave Her to Heaven is a Fox title so with Disney's acquisition and current strategy, it's unlicensable.
The only hope is if Fox doesn't have worldwide rights and the labels in the related countries manage to release it.

Most of the TT titles I have are from their sales and were between $7.95 - $19.95 (plus shipping). So once again, I don’t disagree with what you have said but it’s also not like one couldn’t buy most of them if one didn’t want to pay $29.95.

Jamieson said at Lyon 3 weeks ago that part of TT's model was to never do any sales like this but that they more and more had to because their 2017 and 2018 figures have been that awful. These sales thus exist solely because TT misjudged the market's trajectory and their business model's appeal but ended up with such an unflexible model that's all they could do for an answer.

[swo17]

Yeah, during their early years there were no sales at all that I can recall, at least none for much of a discount

[nitin]

There weren’t, but apart from a handful of sellouts in the early years, a lot of them were still available when the sales started.

Which goes back to tenia’s point that the sales occurred because the business model was misjudged.