Criterion vs. Other Regions

[Napoleon]

It appears that Herzog' AGUIRRE, THE WRATH OF GOD is now OOP from Anchor Bay. Only Amazon is carring it. Criterion maybe?

I hope not. The Anchor Bay edition is solid. I'd like to think that CC are putting their efforts into films that are not currently available in decent releases.

[kekid]

I'd like to think that CC are putting their efforts into films that are not currently available in decent releases.

This assumption has been repeatedly proven wrong, especially if you extend it to include all regions, and a source of frustration for some of us.

[arsonfilms]

I'd like to think that CC are putting their efforts into films that are not currently available in decent releases.

This assumption has been repeatedly proven wrong, especially if you extend it to include all regions, and a source of frustration for some of us.

Definitely. The Anchor Bay version is fine, but a 2 disc would be just fine with me, and definitely a legitimae decision.

The region debate kind of annoys me. Sure, there are perfectly decent releases available from other regions. Great. Keep in mind though, that even though you can import those versions it isn't actually legal to sell them here, and to expect any company to ignore a film because there's a 6-disc Norwegian version is absurd. Films are licensed by territory (the reason behind region encoding) and although many people have access to the releases in other territories, distributors can (and should) only pay attention to what's available in the territories to which they distribute.

Sorry about that tangent, but it's an argument that bugs me.

[backstreetsbackalright]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's not illegal to sell imports.

[arsonfilms]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's not illegal to sell imports.

Not necessarily as a retailer, but as a distributor.

[Matt]

I'm not sure how you people go off on the tangents you go off on sometimes, but we are talking about the possibilty of one US company releasing a disc of a film that is already available in a decent edition by another US company. n w didn't mention other countries or other regions at all.

[kekid]

I'm not sure how you people go off on the tangents you go off on sometimes, but we are talking about the possibilty of one US company releasing a disc of a film that is already available in a decent edition by another US company. n w didn't mention other countries or other regions at all.

That is correct Matt. But in the world where everything else is bought and sold globally, should not the producers of the DVD's keep an eye on what is available globally? Anyone with a code free player anywhere in the world is by definition a global consumer. Therefore the manufacturers such as Criterion should perhaps pay more attention to global availabilityof material they issue. Of course the R1 availability of the disc in question (Aguirre) makes it a more straightforward issue, but I wanted to suggest that the idea should go further.

[Andre Jurieu]

But in the world where everything else is bought and sold globally, should not the producers of the DVD's keep an eye on what is available globally? Anyone with a code free player anywhere in the world is by definition a global consumer. Therefore the manufacturers such as Criterion should perhaps pay more attention to global availabilityof material they issue.

Except their main market is probably still R1, so they would probably make their business decisions largely based upon where the majority of their sales lie. They might consider the global market, but the effects of the global market might be minimal at this point due to the restrictions of region-coding. Anyone with a region free player might be a global consumer, but there might not actually be that many of them to make a difference to the decision, and Criterion may suspect that the majority of these consumers might just purchase their product anyway.

[Antoine Doinel]

I'm not sure how you people go off on the tangents you go off on sometimes, but we are talking about the possibilty of one US company releasing a disc of a film that is already available in a decent edition by another US company. n w didn't mention other countries or other regions at all.

That is correct Matt. But in the world where everything else is bought and sold globally, should not the producers of the DVD's keep an eye on what is available globally? Anyone with a code free player anywhere in the world is by definition a global consumer. Therefore the manufacturers such as Criterion should perhaps pay more attention to global availabilityof material they issue. Of course the R1 availability of the disc in question (Aguirre) makes it a more straightforward issue, but I wanted to suggest that the idea should go further.

Perhaps, and you make a good point but there are some other things to consider.

Firstly, until film companies find an alternate way to sell rights to films, various studios will hold theatrical, television and DVD rights for one film around the world which is part of the reason (the other being financial) that region coding came into existence in the first place. In order to make back their money, companies are practically compelled to create a DVD release even if they know it exists in a format elsewhere in the world. What working with Criterion allows is a unique product, with built in marketability that will immediately attract interest even in those who may already have the DVD. Furthermore, it also allows studios to make money on a film they may not have the time or resources or willingness to invest in restoring themselves.

Secondly, the byzantine copyright laws create interesting issues for older films depending on where you are in the world. In Japan, it was recently ruled that all films prior to 1953 were considered public domain and any Joe Schmo company could legally sell a shitty dupe with no legal implications (and I used to work for an American version of one of these companies and directly with people licensing these films for duplication so trust me when I say the masters are complete shit). Again, people like Kino and Criterion can bring these "public domain" films in definitive editions when other people wouldn't be interested.

Finally, I think you are really overstating how much people realize a global DVD market and region free players exist. Most of the people I know aren't film freaks and don't even realize that various versions of DVD releases can be found for one film around the world or that such things as region free players exist. And they certainly wouldn't research which one has the best contrast, and aspect ratio before buying it. How many average people do you think know what windowboxing is?

I personally don't have a region free player yet (sacrilege, I know) as when I bought my current player a few years ago in Canada, it was about ten months later when region free players finally cracked the market here (in small quantities, with few choices) at a somewhat reasonable price. Even buying Criterion releases is a bit of a luxury, let alone buying a new player so I can import the few titles from Europe I can't (yet) get here.

I don't think the Criterion it's-already-out-in-[insert country here] issue is a particularly pressing one. If Criterion only released films that released yet at all, their release schedule would be very small and very eclectic to be sure.

[Tommaso]

Going slightly off-topic perhaps: Please correct me, but my impression regarding codefree players is that in Europe almost anyone remotely interested in regular dvd buying has one, whereas in the US and Canada this is still a rare thing (or that players in R1-zone often cannot even play PAL discs, whereas in Europe every -and I mean every - player can play both PAL and NTSC). Especially very cheap players here in Europe (let's say, between 50 and 100 Dollars) nearly all are regionfree or can be very easily modified to be so, often via a hidden menu.

So, if my impression is correct, what are the reasons? Are codefree/PAL players so expensive in the US, or is it just a certain 'what is not available here does not exist' attitude?

[Napoleon]

Going slightly off-topic perhaps: Please correct me, but my impression regarding codefree players is that in Europe almost anyone remotely interested in regular dvd buying has one, whereas in the US and Canada this is still a rare thing (or that players in R1-zone often cannot even play PAL discs, whereas in Europe every -and I mean every - player can play both PAL and NTSC). Especially very cheap players here in Europe (let's say, between 50 and 100 Dollars) nearly all are regionfree or can be very easily modified to be so, often via a hidden menu.

So, if my impression is correct, what are the reasons? Are codefree/PAL players so expensive in the US, or is it just a certain 'what is not available here does not exist' attitude?

The original driving force behind people in Europe going region free was superior extras and (often much) earlier dvd releases of big titles in R1 land; Although I don't that is the case so much now.

Casual film watchers in R1 land have never had a reason to go region free. The only people who would have the inclination imo are those after stuff not available in R1 (artsy/cultsy/foreigny stuff). People after such things represent a small demographic, so not much demand in the US for region free players. Hence region free players are not commonly available in the US.

[Tommaso]

The original driving force behind people in Europe going region free was superior extras and (often much) earlier dvd releases of big titles in R1 land; Although I don't that is the case so much now.

Good point, and I think it's still the case, although not for big titles, but for our beloved artsy-kinda-Criterion-stuff (especially in the extras department, but also for superior print quality). On the other hand, people after such things are also comparatively few in Europe, although of course the whole arthouse tradition is a very European phenomenon since the 60s.

But what about films from Asia, for example? I don't necessarily mean Kurosawa, Mitoguchi et al., but newer films (Kitano, Zhang Yimou, Korean action films, you name it). These are released in the US as belatedly (and sometimes shortened) as in Europe, and I thought that being able to watch these films would be attractive to a lot of especially younger fans, who would need a regionfree player, then (but not a PAL option).

[kekid]

I agree with the general assessment that the size of the consumer market possessing code-free players and interested in "artsy" films is rather small. However, most of Criterion issues fall in this category, hence I believe a larger proportion of Criterion consumers are likely to have interest in DVD's of rare and foreign films issued in other regions.

There is clearly the issue of consumers knowing that they have an option. If all Criterion consumers knew that they could, for $100 or less, own a DVD player that can play DVD's from other regions, and that other regions often have DVD's of films they have been long waiting for, far more people would own code-free players. Since no-one with access to mass media has any interest in disseminating this information, this education is unlikely to occur (no $150 million media budget for this cause!). In a perverse way this is good, because if this practice gained momentum, studios and DVD makers will crack down on the manufacture and sale of code-free players.

Finally, I question the statement that if Criterion only looked at DVD's not issued elsewhere they would have a very small consideration set. If we qualified the statement with the following two clauses they will have a fairly large set to work with, at least at this time: (1) DVD's issued elsewhere in English-friendly format, and (2) DVD's that meet certain standard of quality (thus they might want to avoid duplications with Eureka MoC, but not care much about those issued by Infinity).

I concede that this is a wishful thinking on part of a small set of consumers to which I belong, hence may not engage Criterion's attention, but wouldn't it be nice if it did........

[HerrSchreck]

I can understand the desire to see CC release only previously-unreleased-in-all-regions titles, since it is this core concept that made them a dream come true for so many afficionadoes: having the balls to spend a fortune bringing out the actual Best Movies In The World like RUBLEV or ORDET regardless of the seeming fact that there was a tiny market for these films. Films that were previously nonexistent on home video that one dreamt of seeing in a decent edition, let alone in a superatomic ultima perfecto "suburban chain store" edition. It was an idea that defied all human logic.. but since we're talking talkies primarily, and given that the dvd-glut has heralded a renaissance in film interest, the CC wisdom has become manifest, sort of along the lines that Tony DeFrees marketed David Bowie-- if you lavish your product with a fortune of production values, treat it like the greatest thing in the world, then people will take notice and register it as such. Thus teens & twentysomethings looking for Heavy & Hip Art Power, and midlife-crisis-er's/divorcees wanting more culture out of life before they check out have latched on to the Criterion name.

It's definitely true that the average CC buyer (and obviously dvd buyers in general, at least in US) has no idea what a region code is, and therefore have no idea why they should buy a region free player easily available at many electronics retailers for under 99 bucks. Clearly CC has located a consumer with disposable income that, despite being quite "bourgoise" in their tastes, want a little bit more out of life and therefore, while they know very little about film in general, they like to browse the CC aisle, picking up & reading the different boxes and taking fun chances just like many of the young & old blind buyers on this site. But they still aren't savvy collectors, techheads who know what combing or ghosting is, or international edition-hunters. Even asking the question "why" is sort of silly-- if film is not a maniacal passion in your life, if you don't know what most of the CC's even are when you purchase them, if you don't know what a "region" is, and you don't know that multiple editions exist of certain films in other regions, then you certainly don't care enough to investigate what you don't even know exists.. a region-free player.

I definitely can sympathize with the "feeling" that CC is not doing their wondrous "job" of ressurrecting a rare masterpiece like a phoenix from obscurity when they "merely" come out with a slightly-better-than-R2/PAL edition of a film already back in circulation.

And one thing Europeans must remember about Americans who have only a passing interest in esoteric films: R1 finds them in the home region of the vast bulk of the films they're interested in-- i e mass-market contemporary films. They have no reason to look further. When they want to treat themselves to a little high-end antique masterpiece, they splurge on a CC blind-buy. But I'd say very few "average" consumers with a passing interest in classics get beyond owning more than 5-7% of CC's line; when you throw in vintage Warners & Univ etc, plus music, their heads are spinning from the options. R1 has a vastly different dynamic than all other regions. If you want to get beyond scratching the merest Murnau/Lang/Dreyer surface in European silents (and silents in general), even then you still have to come to R1.. sad but true.