Red Desert (Antonioni, 1964)
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godardslave
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:44 pm
- Location: Confusing and open ended = high art.
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Ovader
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:56 am
- Location: Canada
According to Carlotta Films Red Desert will be available in a boxset with CHRONIQUE D'UN AMOUR, LA DAME SANS CAMÉLIAS and with some short films and documentaries on September 5. I doubt there will be any English sub-titles.
Antonioni Box Set
Antonioni Box Set
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Anonymous
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Nothing
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:04 am
Have just been watching the Australian DVD.
First of all, the picture quality is quite excellent, very much improved. Like the Russian disc, this comes from the new Italian restoration. It is still preferable to see Red Desert in the cinema on a good print, but this is the first time it has been watchable on DVD for an English-speaking audience.
As has, I think, been mentioned elsewhere, the Australian edition has yellow subtitles, which can only be described as a neanderthal act of violence in the case of this film. They are, at least, removable, but if I was an Italian speaker I would have bought the Russian disc some time ago.
One thing I have not yet seen commented on is the sound. The sound, unfortunately, is atrocious. Thinking back, for a moment, to the Image R1 DVD, the sound on that disc is very old and worn, with a heavy layer of hiss and a high-pitched whine, not dissimilar to an old 78 record. However, one does at least get used to this constant noise after a few minutes. For the Madman DVD, it seems they have not restored the original audio stems (one must assume these to be lost) but, rather, have applied crude, sledgehammer digital noise reduction to the entire soundtrack, getting rid of the surface noise entirely, but leaving all sounds below a certain decibel level - including all the atmospheres - floating in a wash of digital murk... The sad thing is, with half an ear and a bit of care, the Image track could have been cleaned up a fair way, without such ruinous results - it is all a question of balance... I'm not sure if Madman themselves are responsible for this particular travesty, or if it is a feature of the restoration itself. It should be noted that the R1 No Shame DVD of Story of a Love Affair suffers from the same problem, so I'm inclined to believe that the problem lies with the Italians...
Anyway, for those with DVD Players that can read dual-layer DVD-Rs (not myself, unfortunately), the temptation must now be to rip the Madman disc, change the colour of the subtitles, do some subtle cleaning up of the Image soundtrack (and converting it from 23.98fps to 25fps), then combine the two and re-burn...
First of all, the picture quality is quite excellent, very much improved. Like the Russian disc, this comes from the new Italian restoration. It is still preferable to see Red Desert in the cinema on a good print, but this is the first time it has been watchable on DVD for an English-speaking audience.
As has, I think, been mentioned elsewhere, the Australian edition has yellow subtitles, which can only be described as a neanderthal act of violence in the case of this film. They are, at least, removable, but if I was an Italian speaker I would have bought the Russian disc some time ago.
One thing I have not yet seen commented on is the sound. The sound, unfortunately, is atrocious. Thinking back, for a moment, to the Image R1 DVD, the sound on that disc is very old and worn, with a heavy layer of hiss and a high-pitched whine, not dissimilar to an old 78 record. However, one does at least get used to this constant noise after a few minutes. For the Madman DVD, it seems they have not restored the original audio stems (one must assume these to be lost) but, rather, have applied crude, sledgehammer digital noise reduction to the entire soundtrack, getting rid of the surface noise entirely, but leaving all sounds below a certain decibel level - including all the atmospheres - floating in a wash of digital murk... The sad thing is, with half an ear and a bit of care, the Image track could have been cleaned up a fair way, without such ruinous results - it is all a question of balance... I'm not sure if Madman themselves are responsible for this particular travesty, or if it is a feature of the restoration itself. It should be noted that the R1 No Shame DVD of Story of a Love Affair suffers from the same problem, so I'm inclined to believe that the problem lies with the Italians...
Anyway, for those with DVD Players that can read dual-layer DVD-Rs (not myself, unfortunately), the temptation must now be to rip the Madman disc, change the colour of the subtitles, do some subtle cleaning up of the Image soundtrack (and converting it from 23.98fps to 25fps), then combine the two and re-burn...
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Tom Peeping
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:32 pm
- Location: Paris
- Contact:
I didn't want to buy the new French edition because of the muddy colors and bought the R4 Edition of Red Desert online from EZdvd (along with Breaker Morant that I know nothing about, but as I was shopping in Australia...). Now, this story of yellow subs and bad sound is really disappointing. Anyway, the parcel is on its way. Hope it will come as a good suprise.
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Nothing
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:04 am
mista hare - the problem is present througout, but, for an easy comparison, listen to the scene where the little girl is on the beach. listen to the sound of the waves. on the Image disc you will hear a natural wave atmos. on the clavis disc, the waves sound bubbly and artificial, as if listening through a tube. this is what can result if someone carelessly applies a noise-reduction filter, such as Waves.X-Noise.
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Nothing
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:04 am
ah, mista hare, you are your usual self 
All I can say is that I am, amongst other things, a professional sound designer and, if you actually owned both discs, then, perhaps, you would realise the problem (or perhaps not, but hey).
Hmm... try this. Go to 53m 31-4secs, turn it up and listen to the sound of the waves as the boat pulls into view. It sounds like an alien space ship landing. You surely don't believe this to be intentional? Now keep that metallic burbling sound in your head (the sound of excessive digital manipulation) and listen to the rest of the film - you will being to realise that it is present throughout, to a greater or lesser degree.
Remember the 1st reel of Profession: Reporter on the Japanese DVD, that also had a severe audio problem? That was a similar head-banging-wall situation, with many otherwise quite trustworthy people swearing blind that this degredation in the elements was somehow an intentional alienation effect. Well you don't find the problem on the new Sony restoration. I believe this link holds some relevance.
All I can say is that I am, amongst other things, a professional sound designer and, if you actually owned both discs, then, perhaps, you would realise the problem (or perhaps not, but hey).
Hmm... try this. Go to 53m 31-4secs, turn it up and listen to the sound of the waves as the boat pulls into view. It sounds like an alien space ship landing. You surely don't believe this to be intentional? Now keep that metallic burbling sound in your head (the sound of excessive digital manipulation) and listen to the rest of the film - you will being to realise that it is present throughout, to a greater or lesser degree.
Remember the 1st reel of Profession: Reporter on the Japanese DVD, that also had a severe audio problem? That was a similar head-banging-wall situation, with many otherwise quite trustworthy people swearing blind that this degredation in the elements was somehow an intentional alienation effect. Well you don't find the problem on the new Sony restoration. I believe this link holds some relevance.
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Gordon
- Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:03 pm
You're nothing - that's what you are, mista!Nothing wrote:I am, amongst other things, a professional sound designer
Seriously, I cannot hear any hum when I play the DVD at slightly-above-normal (by standards) volume and that is all that matters. If there were problems, they by jove I too would be grumbling. If you're that hacked-off about the DVD, then send it back and wait for a R1 - someone has to release it sooner or later.
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Nothing
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:04 am
Mr. Hare,
I thought this forum was a place for raising such issues, so others might be informed and so distributors might even eventually take note. It was in this spirit that I made the original post and the submission to Gary. I have no vested interest in any release of Red Desert over another, beyond my desire to acquire the best possible version. Nor do I wish to turn this into a battle of credentials.
Hiss may seem like the enemy, but the brain gets used to it after a while. The choice between the two soundtracks is, in some ways, comparable to the choice between the EMI and Pearl editions of Schnabel's Beethoven cycle.
p.s. I share your reservations on Second Run. It seems they just run with whatever transfer the sales agent gives them, (sometimes) good or (often) bad.
I thought this forum was a place for raising such issues, so others might be informed and so distributors might even eventually take note. It was in this spirit that I made the original post and the submission to Gary. I have no vested interest in any release of Red Desert over another, beyond my desire to acquire the best possible version. Nor do I wish to turn this into a battle of credentials.
Hiss may seem like the enemy, but the brain gets used to it after a while. The choice between the two soundtracks is, in some ways, comparable to the choice between the EMI and Pearl editions of Schnabel's Beethoven cycle.
p.s. I share your reservations on Second Run. It seems they just run with whatever transfer the sales agent gives them, (sometimes) good or (often) bad.
Last edited by Nothing on Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Gordon
- Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:03 pm
Okay, fair dues to Nothing (poor choice of username, brother!). He's right - during the waves sloshing, the sound has that highly-compressed wind-chimey effect that you can hear on your Windows Media Player when you select "voice cancellation" and the background artifacts come through. However, the rest of the soundtrack doesn't reveal any other weird noises - not to me, at least; the voices sound natural and most of the time, the track is nearly silent. I had a DVD-R of the horrid Image disc, but it joined the banana skins and teabags when I ordered the Oz disc. Oh, well.
Incidentally, I have the EMI of Schnabel, which isn't that great - is the Pearl edition far superior?
I'll bow to your expertise, Nothing. Ha! "I bow to nothing - my vanity is intact!".
Incidentally, I have the EMI of Schnabel, which isn't that great - is the Pearl edition far superior?
I'll bow to your expertise, Nothing. Ha! "I bow to nothing - my vanity is intact!".
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Nothing
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:04 am
I figure the best thing is to let people decide for themselves. Unfortunately these links will only last for a few days, but it's the best I can do. I have captured the moment when the plague boat pulls into the harbour. These are short mono WAV files (approx. 2mb each), not mp3s, to retain resolution.
1/ The Image version. As you can hear, the sound effects and dialogue sound natural on this version, however everything is afflicted by a loud hiss and a high-frequency hum.
2/ The Madman version. Most of the hum and hiss is gone, but at a price. All of the higher frequencies have been stripped away and digital artifacts have been introduced, making the sound distant and hollow.
3/ The Nothing-Image version. Just for fun, I took the Image version and ran it crudely through a noise-reduction plug-in to see if I could broadly replicate the Madman effect.
Of course the ultimate conclusion of all this is why on earth weren't the sound elements for this epochal film kept in better condition? Is this the best anyone can do?
p.s. Schnabel: I prefer the Pearl to the EMI, but my favourite is probably the European Naxos discs, which strike a balance between the two.
1/ The Image version. As you can hear, the sound effects and dialogue sound natural on this version, however everything is afflicted by a loud hiss and a high-frequency hum.
2/ The Madman version. Most of the hum and hiss is gone, but at a price. All of the higher frequencies have been stripped away and digital artifacts have been introduced, making the sound distant and hollow.
3/ The Nothing-Image version. Just for fun, I took the Image version and ran it crudely through a noise-reduction plug-in to see if I could broadly replicate the Madman effect.
Of course the ultimate conclusion of all this is why on earth weren't the sound elements for this epochal film kept in better condition? Is this the best anyone can do?
p.s. Schnabel: I prefer the Pearl to the EMI, but my favourite is probably the European Naxos discs, which strike a balance between the two.
Last edited by Nothing on Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Gordon
- Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:03 pm
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Gordon
- Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:03 pm
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ChrisW
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:54 am
- Location: Eastern Eye (Madman Entertainment)
- Contact:
Hi - I'm back after a long absence. Did I miss anything?
Just had a quick listen to the section in question. It seems minor but there are discernable Dolby compression artifacts present. I'll check it out on the original masters (with proper headphones) and let you know.
Incidentally, I'm not directly involved in the production of Directors Suite releases ( me I do Eastern Eye) but can certainly look into things and answer questions.
Just had a quick listen to the section in question. It seems minor but there are discernable Dolby compression artifacts present. I'll check it out on the original masters (with proper headphones) and let you know.
Incidentally, I'm not directly involved in the production of Directors Suite releases ( me I do Eastern Eye) but can certainly look into things and answer questions.