©opyright ©oncerns

[zedz]

Out of curiosity, has anyone had any issues with the [Janus Contempraries TótemDVD? I checked out 2 different copies (both where I appeared to be the first patron to have them) from 2 different libraries near me and neither one would save via MakeMKV.

So, to clarify, you want us to help you steal the intellectual property of a young Mexican filmmaker.?

Thanks for keeping the forum so classy.

[ballmouse]

My laptop requires an external DVD player. It's not convenient to leave it in to watch it on the go so I make a copy to watch. Is this illegal? (serious question)

[knives]

It technically is illegal.

[TechnicolorAcid]

Isn’t it just illegal if it’s being shared with others though?

[knives]

It is if it’s a library disc.

[nicolas]

If you pay and make a backup copy for yourself and use the rip for doing BDInfo or screenshots (like I do), this is valid, otherwise clearly not as you're not supporting the film and label with your money.

[tenia]

IIRC, what is illegal is to break/bypass the protections in place on discs (such as BD+ and AACS), something that is required to do if you want to make a personal private backup. Or, in my case, when I want to make screencaps (since this is a feature that has been locked officially from BD and then on) or read a BD or a UHD on my computer that isn't HDCP compatible.

However, if the law is the same in the US, making a private backup is allowed... but since it requires to break the protections...

I however can't think of a single prosecution case of someone that bought the release, kept it, made a backup, solely for privata technical convenience, and never shared the file.

[nicolas]

IIRC, what is illegal is to break/bypass the protections in place on discs (such as BD+ and AACS), something that is required to do if you want to make a personal private backup. Or, in my case, when I want to make screencaps (since this is a feature that has been locked officially from BD and then on) or read a BD or a UHD on my computer that isn't HDCP compatible.

However, if the law is the same in the US, making a private backup is allowed... but since it requires to break the protections...

I however can't think of a single prosecution case of someone that bought the release, kept it, made a backup, solely for privata technical convenience, and never shared the file.

Making a private copy and keeping that stored in your own system can't technically be proven if we neglect that we don't know if everything on the Internet is somehow tracked and recorded. It's all about torrenting and file sharing.

Even renting a DVD or BD out to friends would technically be a violation, as is bringing a DVD to watch it in schools etc. yet all this happens on a regular basis and I'm not aware of any legal cases either.

[Matt]

Even renting a DVD or BD out to friends would technically be a violation, as is bringing a DVD to watch it in schools etc. yet all this happens on a regular basis and I'm not aware of any legal cases either.

Sorry, this is not true in the US. For the former use case, there is the First Sale Doctrine, which allows you to sell, display, or otherwise dispose of any legally obtained item. This is what makes libraries and video rentals possible. If you want to rent your DVDs to your friends, you are 100% legally entitled to do so.

For the second use case, there is an entire section of copyright law [Title 17, Section 110(1)] providing for classroom exemptions. You are allowed to show any legally obtained copy to students in a classroom enrolled in that particular class. Showing it to a full assembly or to a school club for fun is not allowed under this exemption, but may be a Fair Use under certain circumstances.

Fair Use may also apply in terms of copying materials depending on what it’s being used for, if you’re profiting from it, if it affects the market for the item, and so forth. Fair Use, however, is a legal defense that may be used in a courtroom, not a blanket exemption. The only way to prove a use is “fair” is to have a judge rule on that particular use.

When you copy a library DVD and/or bypass the encryption, you might be breaking the law under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act depending on who you are and what you are using the copy for. The rules change every three years!

But as with all copyright law, it’s more a matter of risk assessment. You might be breaking the law, you might attract notice from the copyright holder, they might send you a takedown notice or cease and desist notice, they might take you to court, they might win. Think of it as speeding or jaywalking. Yes, it’s illegal, but you’re probably going to get away with it unless you’re really causing a problem.

Issues of license agreements or what is ethical are each entirely different matters from copyright.

[domino harvey]

Matt, as a fellow old-timer here, how could you resist adding this discussion to this classic thread

[Finch]

Could we split off bullmoose's original question too since it's not about the film?

[Matt]

I knew we had an existing thread but I couldn’t remember what it was called and, uh, in the interest of decorum…

Could we split off bullmoose's original question too since it's not about the film?

bullmoose is asking about technical problems with the disc of the film which seems in the purview of those threads.

[Captain Paranoia]

If you pay and make a backup copy for yourself and use the rip for doing BDInfo or screenshots (like I do), this is valid, otherwise clearly not as you're not supporting the film and label with your money.

Same here, I do this with each DVD/Blu-Ray I purchase, also mainly due to wear-and-tear concerns.

[nicolas]

Even renting a DVD or BD out to friends would technically be a violation, as is bringing a DVD to watch it in schools etc. yet all this happens on a regular basis and I'm not aware of any legal cases either.

Sorry, this is not true in the US. For the former use case, there is the First Sale Doctrine, which allows you to sell, display, or otherwise dispose of any legally obtained item. This is what makes libraries and video rentals possible. If you want to rent your DVDs to your friends, you are 100% legally entitled to do so.

Thanks for your interesting post. The US are definitely handling this better than Germany (where I am), where these laws are much stricter on paper. So much that a teacher I once had refused to watch DVDs in his classroom due to what I described and to top it off, at another point he refused name Microsoft, when talking about them in some context as it could be interpreted as advertising. I know this is extreme and more than unusual behavior particularly if you’re sitting in front of 12-year olds, but hey, maybe one of us might’ve been a spy waiting to report him for doing such grave illegal things.

[Matt]

European countries in general are a lot more restrictive with copyright than the US. Our Congress would absolutely change our own laws to be more restrictive if things like Fair Use and the First Sale Doctrine weren’t already established with more than 100 years of precedent.

The original copyright act of 1790 provided for 14 years of copyright protection. Imagine if almost all Marvel, DC, Star Wars, and Disney characters were in the public domain today! If every film created before the 21st century was free to share!

[MichaelB]

Imagine if almost all Marvel, DC, Star Wars, and Disney characters were in the public domain today! If every film created before the 21st century was free to share!

Well, I'd be out of a job, for starters, as it would no longer be commercially viable to do what I do - i.e. curate mainly 20th-century films on physical media.

Similarly, I imagine many restoration houses would have to shut up shop, as there'd be no way of making money from their efforts.

Which of course is why "public domain copies" has been such a pejorative term - the quality is usually shit because there's no viable way of paying for anything better.

[tenia]

Even renting a DVD or BD out to friends would technically be a violation, as is bringing a DVD to watch it in schools etc. yet all this happens on a regular basis and I'm not aware of any legal cases either.

Sorry, this is not true in the US. For the former use case, there is the First Sale Doctrine, which allows you to sell, display, or otherwise dispose of any legally obtained item. This is what makes libraries and video rentals possible. If you want to rent your DVDs to your friends, you are 100% legally entitled to do so.
For the second use case, there is an entire section of copyright law [Title 17, Section 110(1)] providing for classroom exemptions. You are allowed to show any legally obtained copy to students in a classroom enrolled in that particular class. Showing it to a full assembly or to a school club for fun is not allowed under this exemption, but may be a Fair Use under certain circumstances.

Since it's getting technical (and I'm always up to learn stuff) : what would then cover in the US the "institutional rights", for instance like what Milestone are selling on their website ?
I was under the impression (and the details on Milestone's website goes in this direction) that this was what you needed to buy if wanting to show a movie to a classroom. For instance, on I Am Cuba, the website says this :

STANDARD INSTITUTIONAL LICENSING :
* CLASSROOM RIGHTS allow unlimited use in face-to-face classroom situations for the life of the media, restricted to a single campus or location. Please note that this license doesn't include public screenings or digital transmission of any kind.
* PUBLIC PERFORMANCE RIGHTS (PPR) allow educational and nonprofit groups to exhibit our films to groups of 100 or fewer individuals where admission is not charged. The term of the public performance license is for the life of the DVD. However, if you intend to charge admission, expect an audience over 100, or publicly advertise the screening, then we ask that you contact us regarding an exhibition fee. Films purchased without Public Performance Rights are restricted for individual viewing or face-to-face teaching in the classroom only.
* DIGITAL SITE LICENSES (DSL) allow colleges, universities and nonprofits to locally host and stream to their community on a closed, password-protected system for the life of the digital file.
* K-12 PPR comes with limited performance rights so films can be shown in classrooms, at PTA meetings, during after school programs, and transmitted on a closed-circuit system within a K-12 school building or on a single campus.

Reading this, one would legitimately think that since it's covered this way, the regular $25 BD rights won't allow you so.
Is that where the difference between "a full assembly or to a school club" and a smaller classroom would be of importance (but then, what's the exact threshold ?) ?

[Matt]

Companies like to tout “classroom rights” as something they can license, but that’s already covered by the classroom exemption I noted. When I was doing licensing for educational use for a living, I had a few arguments with people trying to charge me for something that was already provided for under the law with the purchase of a standard DVD/Blu-ray. But sometimes you could only get a disc through the filmmaker so you had to just pay whatever they wanted you to pay.

PPR (Public Performance Rights), like that text states, are what allow for screenings outside the classroom. They can even be open to the public as long as no admission is charged. When you see a film screening on a college or university campus that’s open to the public, they’ve probably paid a few hundred dollars for Public Performance Rights. When I referred to assemblies and clubs, ANY screening that is open to ANYONE other than the students enrolled in a particular class (say, English 320: Shakespeare’s Tragedies), PPR is what would be appropriate there.

A DSL (Digital Site License) allows you to rip a disc or receive a digital file and upload it to an internal video server that’s behind some sort of authentication that only allows access to to current faculty, staff, and students. When COVID closed our campus in 2020 and we moved to online instruction, I suddenly had to obtain DSLs for every single film every instructor wanted to show in their class. It got very expensive and very complicated very quickly.

The rights above are generally licensed for the “life of the disc” or the “life of the file.” Companies like Kanopy offer another option which is providing these rights on a 1-year basis for a smaller fee and providing the hosting. The drawback is you don’t own anything and, if the film is used from year to year, you end up paying much more for it in the end.

All of the above only applies to independent and educational film distributors. The major film studios only license PPR on a short-term basis (sometimes a single showing, sometimes up to a year) and it always costs hundreds of dollars. Companies like Swank Motion Pictures act as brokers for the studios.

I don’t know if this clears anything up. The licensing process, rights, and costs are all dependent on the licensor itself and it can even vary from film to film. The process I would generally follow was:

1. what film is to be shown
2. to whom will it be shown
3. how often will it be shown
3. who licenses this film
4. how much does it cost
5. how do I pay for it (check, credit card, electronic funds transfer)
6. how do I provide access to it (disc, internal server, external hosting, streaming)

Criterion/Janus was one of the most difficult to license from. They wanted us to buy Criterion Channel subscriptions for each individual student.

[tenia]

It does clarify things for me, thanks Matt. Again, since I'm French, I only had (some of) the details for the French system and US info like those on Milestone's website to work from.