UHD New Releases, Reissues and Upgrades

[nicolas]

I just added links to A Man for All Seasons and Tootsie screenshots to my post from yesterday about the Columbia Classics set!

And just added Zodiac as well. Obviously a small-scale upgrade due to the film’s resolution but the HDR & color improvements look great in the caps. Also in the other post a link to a more detailed breakdown of some of the subtle changes Fincher made for the remaster.

[rrenault]

So just to confirm, is The Age of Innocence blue tier compared to the Criterion Blu-ray?

[nicolas]

So just to confirm, is The Age of Innocence blue tier compared to the Criterion Blu-ray?

The 4K is a refinement to the BDs from Sony and Criterion thanks to the better encoding and HDR. It’s nothing night-and-day as they’re all from the same master and the BD encodes were good.

[Fus1on]

Miracles do happen. Paramount’s Zodiac 4K got an excellent encode. fkid / BR.com confirmed this and the tasteful HDR grade is beneficial to the image. Miraculously, Paramount rediscovered that BD-100 discs exist and maxed it out to the brim. Every day a new surprise coming from this studio, unbelievable.

Wow! Very pleasantly surprised to hear that, and more excited to get this release now. I am also a little disappointed that the Director's Cut won't be in 4K, but honestly, I don't remember the DC adding that much to the film (I think it was like a few minutes of extra footage). Still though, I guess this means it's worth hanging onto our 2-disc Director's Cut Blu-rays.

[nicolas]

Miracles do happen. Paramount’s Zodiac 4K got an excellent encode. fkid / BR.com confirmed this and the tasteful HDR grade is beneficial to the image. Miraculously, Paramount rediscovered that BD-100 discs exist and maxed it out to the brim. Every day a new surprise coming from this studio, unbelievable.

Wow! Very pleasantly surprised to hear that, and more excited to get this release now. I am also a little disappointed that the Director's Cut won't be in 4K, but honestly, I don't remember the DC adding that much to the film (I think it was like a few minutes of extra footage). Still though, I guess this means it's worth hanging onto our 2-disc Director's Cut Blu-rays.

The 2 discs from the Director’s Cut BD are included in the UHD set. There’s been a lot of back and forth at BR on the decision to use the TC but after seeing how detailed the remaster was, it’s practically guaranteed that Fincher was involved and clearly decided what he wanted people to see. Of course, ideally they’d have given us both cuts via seamless branching to please everyone. Another user also suggested that the DC was actually never even released on DVD and streaming services also have just the TC available, which implies that the vast majority of people who ever saw Zodiac only ever saw the TC. Only the niche Blu-ray crowd is familiar with the DC and hence the same dedicated physical media crowd are now asking for the DC to be included on the UHD.

[tenia]

I can (like others before me) confirm that To Catch A Thief's UHD is in part / often re-using the same source than what was used for the 2012 BD, albeit with a new color grading (and often slight differences in framing).
This is baffling, considering Paramount most likely paid quite a lot of money only a few years ago to do a 6K scan and 4K resto of the VistaVision OCN, and all they manage to offer on UHD is in part / often sourced from a 17 years old master made from an interpositive.

Obviously, it's not what people related to Paramount (and a few other people, like on HTF) are saying the UHD contains, but that can be debunked by anyone with the 2 discs and a functioning eyesight, and I can't find a lot of other explanations to this UHD on-disc content except that either somebody chose not to use this "2024 restoration" for the UHD; or that the work done from the OCN has been so poorly done that Paramount felt it looked better to reuse the 17yo IP-sourced master (and of course, nobody from Paramount is ever going to tell this because that's not really good looking, either for them as restorers, or from a sales perspective for this UHD). A 3rd possibility is that since they weren't able to get it right the first time, it'd have cost too much extra money to Paramount to re-do the whole 2020 work again, and they chose to limit the cost of this v2 master by mostly re-using the 2007-2012 work, and inserting corrected 2020 shots only when it felt it'd show the most (which would explain why they seem to mostly be outside vista shots).

Also, at least 1 scene is newly obviously DNRed (Brigitte Auber on the pontoon at the 45th minute), and another shot of Grant looks worse now that it looked in 2012 because of digital filtering.

It does bring an upgrade over the BD though, in the sense that it's kinda the 2012 BD with a better grading and spliced in with stuff from a better source. These better-sourced shots DO look like what you'd expect going from a 17yo master (2k ?) from an IP to a recent 4K master from an OCN, they look very good, but almost everything else just is a retooling of a 17yo master from an IP, which isn't particularly attractive as a UHD upgrade and is, frankly, an embarrassment for Paramount.

Also, the UHD doesn't contain the mono track that was on the 2012 BD, only a 5.1 track, but the track is quite conservative and only spread out the music (and a few crowd effects).

EDIT : here are my own caps, I'll let you guess what looks like from a recent 6K scan / 4K resto of an OCN and what looks oh so strangely like sourced from what was used back in 2012 : https://slow.pics/c/FotAiFRk

[nicolas]

I can (like others before me) confirm that To Catch A Thief's UHD is in part / often re-using the same source than what was used for the 2012 BD, albeit with a new color grading (and often slight differences in framing).

I’ve read the HTF thread after someone at BR shared a link and my God what a sh*tshow. Hats off for sticking in there for so long and delivering constructive arguments whereas no one, not even Robert Harris had anything remotely valid to contribute. This was a constant streak of dismissal, neglect and protective of RAH’s (based) POV that’s been wide so off mark that he locked the thread once it got increasingly difficult to repeat the same defense “arguments” over again. Don’t get me wrong, his achievements in film restoration and getting films saved are remarkable but right now he’s hurting the “business” or community more than he contributes to by firing off his takes and essentially pitting people in the know against those that rigorously defend the opposite which in turn inspires studios like Paramount to continue doing their thing as enough “respectable” voices praise and encourage their doings.

To bring it back to the UHD, I’m glad it exists and am happy about the improvements they made but it’s obviously far from perfect for the reasons you stated. This project made painfully obvious that Paramount need a dedicated director to look over their shoulders and challenge their notions of what should or shouldn’t be done, just as David Fincher most likely did for Zodiac and even someone like Barry Sonnenfeld for The Addams Family a few years ago.

[tenia]

My issue is that it's supposed to be from a recent 6K scan / 4k resto of the OCN, but it seems like most of it is a repurposing of a 17yo scan of the IP.
Where has this OCN-sourced work gone for all those repurposed sections ?

And the HTF "discussion", like others I had there about debated releases, is lunar. RAH has locked AGAIN the thread (and I won't go back there again even if it reopens), but it's a denial of reality crap-show. Again, anybody with both discs can do a A/B comparison and see what's what. Markantonyll's posts are ridiculous, and honestly personally offensive at this stage, especially the "0 primary evidence to back it up" : dude, I can provide you with humpteen additionnal timecodes (and the relevant screencaps) demonstrating what I'm claiming, supported by multiple other persons having done so and concluded the same. On the other hand, naysayers have yet to provided a single demonstration of what they're stating.

So no, this UHD isn't just made from the now-famous 6k scan of the OCN, but a good chunk of it stems from what already used in 2012, and there is no magical UHD around that have all those repurposed shots replaced with their OCN-sourced equivalents.

The result is what it is quality-wise, and it's kinda fine honestly, but it's not what some advertise it to be. It's just not. I wish it was, because considering the positive difference visible on the newly-sourced shots, it'd have been gorgeous. But it's just not that, it's a mixture of the older IP-sourced master and of the OCN-sourced one, just stop misleading readers by maintaining that's all from this 6k scan of the OCN done a few years ago.

So I do wonder what the hell happened on this one, and what happened with the 6k scan from the OCN of those shots.

[Burke31]

So The Age Of Innocence 4K UHD is not reference quality. How is it deficient?

[therewillbeblus]

My understand is that blue tier just means it's not miles above the available blu-ray edition - most categories are relative to previous releases' image quality, so a release could be perfect but not red if the film already has a blu-ray that the UHD offers less striking improvements upon

[nicolas]

So The Age Of Innocence 4K UHD is not reference quality. How is it deficient?

There are several releases in the blue tier that are objectively reference quality but are not labeled as such due to former Blu-ray editions being just minimally worse. This happens often with BDs that were encoded by Fidelity in Motion and since these are all great, the 4Ks are only refinements rather than substantial upgrades. I think what you’re looking for are labels of films in the blue category that are reference discs on their own but yeah, that’s not how these categories were set up.

However, an idea would be if you’re looking for a specific release that’s on the blue tier (or any other category) you’d search the film’s title and jump to the discussion we had when the film was listed.

[Burke31]

My feeling is that if the 4K UHD release is objectively reference quality, then it should be listed in the red 'reference' tier! Alternatively, one could change how the each tier is categorized, to avoid confusion.

[Finch]

The OG thread was specifically about how much of an upgrade 4Ks were against any existing Blu rays so that's how each category should be viewed though admittedly that gets a bit blurred with the Disappointing 4K column where there can be cases of discs that are disappointing for the format but still better than the BD. I went back and forth on Cinema Guild's Typhoon Club because in the bigger scheme of things it is the best way to see the film especially when set against the Third Window Blu ray or the old DVD, and the damage was done at the restoration stage which CG had no input in or influence over. But it also felt a bit iffy to stick it into the Solid Upgrade tier when there are discs in there that are legitimately great and only in there because the BDs were so good already. I did ultimately add it back to the blue tier.

There are always going to be some titles where takes are going to diverge and where things are getting more complicated that even our existing categories may be too broad to capture all the pluses and minuses of certain releases. I don't want to add more categories though because I don't have the time or inclination for it and it could get into hairsplitting territory. The 2024 4K of To Catch A Thief is a headache in that regard.

[Finch]

Also, the red tier category literally says reference titles and/or most significant upgrades from the most recent BDs. I don't know how people need it spelled out more still.

[tenia]

To Catch a Thief provide some kind of upgrade over the previous BD, but is it solid ? I guess that's where it could be debated.
I also think that a studio financing a high-end restoration but ending up not using most of it for its UHD release and instead re-using a 17yo master is both frustrating and dishonest, but that's IMO a slightly different matter (though it is a part of what kind of upgrade it is).
If one look at the "upgrade", yeah, it's a v2 of the BD, improved on grading, and with some better-sourced shots spliced in.
If one look at what the UHD is supposed to be, it's a disappointment since most of it isn't from the famous 6k scan of the OCN.

[Fus1on]

To Catch a Thief provide some kind of upgrade over the previous BD, but is it solid ? I guess that's where it could be debated.
I also think that a studio financing a high-end restoration but ending up not using most of it for its UHD release and instead re-using a 17yo master is both frustrating and dishonest, but that's IMO a slightly different matter (though it is a part of what kind of upgrade it is).

I personally vote for To Catch a Thief being in Disappointing Tier with a caveat explaining some of its nuances. I did watch it for the first time recently, and I would agree with everyone in this thread that it's a completely watchable disc that vastly improves upon the 2020 release, but that it is so inconsistent on a shot to shot basis, as a result of it being a combination of the 2012 and 2020 BD transfers, that it never quite excels in the way that it should. The fact that Paramount went back to an old IP scan from nearly two decades ago and upscaled it in order to patch in for their terribly handled 6K scan used for the 2020 release makes it not worth putting in Solid Tier, at least, in my opinion.

[Fus1on]

Another suggestion I have for To Catch a Thief is to give it two separate entries, one for the comparison to the 2020 BD, which would be in Solid (potentially Reference) Tier, and another entry for the comparison to the 2012 BD, which would be in Disappointing Tier.

[tenia]

The fact that Paramount went back to an old IP scan from nearly two decades ago and upscaled it in order to patch in for their terribly handled 6K scan used for the 2020 release makes it not worth putting in Solid Tier, at least, in my opinion.

That'd be my issues with that, too.
It's a particularly frustrating releasing considering how good the segments NOT from the older source look on the UHD (most of the time).
And then, I'm quite disappointed by the people who keep claiming this isn't re-using the IP-based source. It's just lying, at some point.

[nicolas]

Drag Me to Hell (Shout) is a solid upgrade.

[nicolas]

Kyle15 at BR took a look at The Tenant (Vinegar Syndrome) and it marks a significant upgrade over the BD. Grain resolves beautifully. No credit in the booklet but Dolby Vision is MEL, which is a sign that Fidelity in Motion did the encode.

[nicolas]

I've received Convoy (StudioCanal) and it's a red tier release. My thoughts are here.

Kyle15 now added a review of The Tenant and Kobe posted screenshots. Definitely a huge upgrade.

[Yakushima]

Drag Me to Hell (Shout) is a solid upgrade.

Nicolas, I just watched the new 4K UHD of Drag Me to Hell, and I agree with your placing it in a solid upgrade category. While a definite improvement over the old Blu-ray, it unfortunately falls short of capturing how the film looked theatrically, at least on my system (OPPO UDP-203). Still, this is an enjoyable upgrade. The film holds up well, thanks in large part to Alison Lohman's earnest and nuanced performance and Peter Deming's lovely camerawork.

[Fus1on]

Yeah, I also just watched the Drag Me to Hell UHD and I’m in agreement with it being placed in Solid Tier. Zodiac is also a Solid Tier release as well.

[ryannichols7]

watched Arrow's The Long Good Friday (I picked up the Criterion too) and it's amazing just how good Arrow have done with the HandMade catalog*, all three UHDs they've done so far from it have been amazing - when you see the clips of how the movies have looked previous in the various makings of, it's laughable. they all look like gritty, poor made-for-TV films, but their restorations have really brought out the beauty in what can be some pretty ugly films (I'll exclude Time Bandits). all three are super filmic, glorious transfers I think. The Long Good Friday has a lot more darker, night shots and I think those are rendered well, especially the last 10-15 minutes (including that amazing finale) that exclusively take place at night. I'll admit I saw all these films way too late, but the sheer quality I've gotten to see them in made it well worth the wait, I'm stunned they went so long without legitimate upgrades. I do hope we see Mona Lisa on 4K soon!

(*-it's still really weird that Criterion credit themselves in the booklet for The Long Good Friday when Arrow doesn't acknowledge it, which does make sense since they did their own restoration for the Bluray. not making this a brand warfare thing as I did buy the Criterion LGF and have their Bluray of Time Bandits also)

[nicolas]

Drag Me to Hell (Shout) is a solid upgrade.

Nicolas, I just watched the new 4K UHD of Drag Me to Hell, and I agree with your placing it in a solid upgrade category. While a definite improvement over the old Blu-ray, it unfortunately falls short of capturing how the film looked theatrically, at least on my system (OPPO UDP-203). Still, this is an enjoyable upgrade. The film holds up well, thanks in large part to Alison Lohman's earnest and nuanced performance and Peter Deming's lovely camerawork.

Yeah, I also just watched the Drag Me to Hell UHD and I’m in agreement with it being placed in Solid Tier. Zodiac is also a Solid Tier release as well.

Thanks for your feedback! This was always going to be a smaller upgrade since they’ve worked on the basis of the DI instead of a full rebuild. Sadly that seems impossible for most, if not all films from the DI era due to lacking cut negatives and filmouts of any VFX. Still, having an optimal presentation of the DI is much better than a crappy old BD. I’m still debating on whether to get the film or not as I really don’t like Raimi’s Evil Dead films.